DIFFERENT OILS AND NO FILTER ON ENGINE

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

What I think is funny is that someone sees a pennzoil dino oil with some decent #'s in a taurus like my escort and makes a statement that it's probably one of the best dino oils out there... Here I show a complete history of blend and dinos with numbers lower than most synth's and it gets very little mention.

Like dragboat use to say, a good analysis seems to die out quick but had this one showed some higher numbers, might have grabbed some attention huh.

I think the thing I like about this analysis is it is showing how that a synth base oil isn't in reality that more effective in wear protection if any. Once I put the 5w30 blend back in, with the fram filter, we'll see how the wear numbers do again. I'll be surprised if they lower even more than what they show currently.

 

[Patman]

Bob, I believe your lowest wear numbers are going to come with your future interval with the blend and a higher flowing filter than the Fram (such as the K&N or Supertech) That's my prediction and I'm sticking to it.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

ya ready to put some money on it!???

Those are some really low #'s to beat. Got yer pink slip? Just kidding!, I really don't see it to do much better if any. I'm going on a trip to northern south carolina next to north carolina and back. I'll be changing the oil over in the morning weather permitting. I think these tests are showing some interesting points about flow and base stocks being used IMO. The neat thing about this, I, like you and everyone else have no idea as to what we will see at the end of that run.

[ June 13, 2003, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:
ya ready to put some money on it!???

Those are some really low #'s to beat. Got yer pink slip? Just kidding!, I really don't see it to do much better if any. I'm going on a trip to northern south carolina next to north carolina and back. I'll be changing the oil over in the morning weather permitting. I think these tests are showing some interesting points about flow and base stocks being used IMO. The neat thing about this, I, like you and everyone else have no idea as to what we will see at the end of that run.

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They are low numbers but I think they could be even lower. I think you could see wear numbers closer to 1-1.5 ppm per 1000 miles for your iron and lead once you get the optimum combo in your engine. You mention how flow is important, yet your second test with the Fram showed it to be very restrictive to flow. So if you ran numbers like this with a restrictive filter, imagine how much they'll come down with a high flow filter!

And yes, I'll put money on it! If you don't see lower wear numbers with the blend/high flow oil filter than this most recent one, I'll send you another $20 for the site through Paypal. If I win, you have to send me $20 worth of Neutra. Deal?

To win, we'll compare the wear numbers in ppm per 1000 miles, and we'll just look at the numbers for iron, lead, copper and aluminum.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

YEP, my moderate climate

currently at 92 degs in the shade

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:

YEP, my moderate climate

currently at 92 degs in the shade

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Probably very humid there, too. We haven't seen dewpoints of less than 70 here in SC for the last 2 weeks.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

So are you telling me that your betting on the fact that since the 5w30 #701 has a pao base stock it will perform better in respect to wear protection over the micron moly 5w30 due to base oil changes?

BTW, I am going out in a few minutes and changing the oil. I'm going in with the same fram filter and the 701 5w30 blend.

I have just installed a new battery as the other one was on its way out so that was causing my alternator to work more and give me less hp due to alternator drag. I replaced my air filter due to the higher si #'s I saw climbing. Also checked my pcv valve and didn't replace it as it appeared to still be good even though it is the same original valve from the begining with 109,000+ miles on it.

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:
So are you telling me that your betting on the fact that since the 5w30 #701 has a pao base stock it will perform better in respect to wear protection over the micron moly 5w30 due to base oil changes?

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No, I'm saying that a higher flow oil filter than that Fram will be mostly responsible for you seeing lower wear numbers.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

That isn't the mission on this analysis, we are trying to establish does the synth portion of an base stock oil actualy help produce better wear #'s? So fram is still in. After this, we'll get back on to the filter issue.

 

[Patman]

I agree with you Bob, in your moderate climate, you probably won't see better wear numbers with the blend. But if you saw colder temps you would. (or if you drove your car very hard and did much longer intervals)

 

[FowVay]

I have a question about the oil. Do you think that the synthetic base oils are more resistant to deterioration/break-down than the mineral oil? Other than cold flow properties and high temperature stability, why would there be any difference between a good quality mineral oil and a synthetic base oil? My main reason for using synthetics is to protect a hot running turbocharger and prevent formations in my engine.

I have recently purchased my first batch of Schaeffer's 10W-30 (#703) and I have to tell you that I'm simply amazed by this oil. I don't know if these engines have more localized hot spots than others but I do like to keep my engines spotless inside. I hope the Schaeffer's performs in this regard too.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

quote:

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Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:
Here's my last recent analysis. This time I had been running the #100 MICRON MOLY® ENGINE OIL SAE 5W-30

I'd taken the sample a little sooner than I had intended on but thought I was over and Mark(rugerman) was in town to take my oil sample pump. Anyway, I believe this is showing even more evidence that flow is a big factor considering the wear numbers that are showing in comparison to the other samples and to go back the other way, my next analysis will be the 5w30 blend when I change out again. This will go back to showing that the base oil isn't what makes the difference but the flow and balance of the additives. Currently I'm still running the 5w30 straight mineral but will hopefully change out to the blend shortly this week. No additives or flushes have been used in this last test.

code:

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[ M1 filter ] [ Fram filter ]

blend blend (15w40) Molybond 5w30

miles 10,500 4,022 4,000 6,845 9442 3520



Wear Metals

copper 10 19 8 10 7 4

iron 30 17 12 16 20 8

chrom 0 0 0 0 0 0

alum 2 2 2 2 1 2

lead 18 36 2 7 14 8



Additives

moly 121 114 99 85 78 91

phos 1146 709 937 716 765 980

zinc 1260 906 1017 786 752 862

magnesum 14 9 9 7 7 10

calc 3587 2976 2809 2228 2405 1923



Contaminants

silicon 7 7 3 5 8 8

%antifreeze,fuel,%h20 all 0



Oil Properties

Vsic 16.65 12.81 14.49 14.82 16.37 9.51

50w 40w 40w 40w 50w 30w

sulfur 4 45 15 12 14 14

oxidation 32 21 13 15 14 14

nitration 35 20 14 15 21 13

soot 0 0 0 0 0 0

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I wonder if I was to pull out and add 3qts over my extended drain periods where I didn't add anything, would my analysis report look any better than the mobil one report reported on 3MP's 12k report?

Not trying to down his results, but I've used a blend, a mineral oil both at some extended drain intervals without adding 3qts of makeup oil and wonder what if I was to follow this same technique, how would my extended drain reports would have come out in comparison?

 

[buster]

quote:

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I wonder if I was to pull out and add 3qts over my extended drain periods where I didn't add anything, would my analysis report look any better than the mobil one report reported on 3MP's 12k report?

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Good question...I think it would have been better to a certain extent. Mobil's website even mentioned (don't remember where) about how today's engines are built very tight and less oil has to be added today then older engines of the past and that normally make up oil was used to keep it going longer. They were refering to Delvac 1 I believe. The 3qts of make up oil used I think kept the numbers going a bit longer. There have been other cases on here though where a lot of make up oil was used and the report still looked bad. I'm going to see if I can find them....or where they just in my head?

I think this is going to pose a problem for this test because most likely, the LS1 will consume more Mobil 1 then Amsoil or Redline due to it's lighter, almost 20wt, viscosity.

[ June 22, 2003, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

An update on this car and it's continued tests...

I have just pulled a sample on the 5w30 blend with 3903 miles on it. At this point it's sitting on my desk waiting for the postman to take it. The real interesting thing I wanted to share with everyone is this...

I pulled the fram filter off the vehicle, drained the oil, and DID NOT replace the filter with a new full flow but completely REMOVED the full flow filter. That's now the new test. I'm running new schaeffers 5w30 blend oil for the same time frame but with NO OIL FILTER. Again, will pull another analysis to see just how does an engine fair with no oil filter.

An interesting thing I've noticed already is that when starting the engine with the fram filter, I was noticing slight startup tick from the valve train. The filter for this engine is horizontal to the engine and does have an antidrain back valve in the filter. The replacement plate used is a straight through and doesn't have such. Upon starting, not one ounce of tick, no noise, and no clatter. The engine is perfectly quite. Not completely sure why it works with no adbv, but I have an idea. Will let sit over nite and see how it does in the morning.

 

[Pablo]

wow - bob, you are the guinea pig

Please explain the blocking "plate" - ?? Friday night and the brain is set at about 0.5...

 

[pscholte]

Bob/Pablo,

I am really interested in how this one turns out...this just might turn the tribological world upside down...ummm, am I overdramatizing this maybe a wee bit.......nahhhhhh.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

The Blocking plate is no more than a remote filter relocator that we blocked completely off with a couple of bolts basicly. Drilled out a whole in the side, through the center section so oil can transfer between outside and inside sections and create equal pressure.

The idea and brain child of this is Ralph Wood our very own bypass filter guy in the site sponsor section. It's very simple but quite effective. Once I run this for the basic 4k miles, then I'll be installing the rest of this with his toilet paper by pass filter then doing another 4k.

I think this will be very interesting to see just how much affect a full flow filter has on analysis as many can see I have trends from way back when with every change I've done and what happened because of the change. Again, stepping on new ground here for me, and I've got to say, I'm extremely well pleased as to how it's working. I just went out and started the engine after an all nite sit and it had NO top end noise without the adbv in the filter. Well, gota go. See ya all around later.
bob

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Here's a picture (somewhat fuzzy cause I just stuck camera down under engine and hit button so please exuse clarity and the dirty engine compartment.

 

[Spector]

Thank you. For some time now I have been saying that I believe filters are useless appendages on todays engines(catastrophic failure only) and new oils do all of the work. Your test will certainly be a fine indicator of a filter's usefullness. As you noted, teh start up seems quieter now so (assuming that holds) the real test will be the UOA report and wear metals.

Really looking forward to this one.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Got to say, running an oil without an oil filter is something I've been wanting to do for some time. These analysis I've done with the changes have really shown me alot on how an oil analysis reflects the changes that I did. We've covered synth vers mineral same visc, both at extended drains, flow vers filtration, and now working on full flow filters vers no filtration, then no filtration vers bypass filtration. Can't wait to complete it. After changing my oil yesterday afternoon, I put on 190miles by 6pm. figure to have about 800 miles on maybe a bit more by monday night. Guess I need to quit driving these short trips and go on a long run so to get more mileage.

Forgot to mention, I'll need to get an adaptor from one of the amsoil reps on the board. It's a swivel which can be inserted into the valve cover cap for a return line for the bypass filter. Guess, I'll need to get a part number to get one ordered.

[ August 09, 2003, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]