RL 75W90 vs LE 607 gear oil comparison

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INDYMAC

INDYMAC

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The Redline 75W90 gear oil sample was taken from a stock 2003 Honda S2000 Torsen LSD differential at 21515 miles with an OCI of 15K miles. The Lubrication Engineers LE 607 SAE 90 gear oil sample was taken from a stock 2004 Honda S2000 Torsen LSD differential at 26250 miles with a 11.4K OCI. Both reports were done by Blackstone.

Element/RL/LE/Universal Avg
Aluminum/1/2/2
Chromium/5/1/3
Iron/420/172/243
Copper/1/0/3
Lead/0/0/2
Tin/15/0/0
Moly/2/0/2
Nickel/91/17/28
Manganese/23/4/10
Silver/0/0/0
Titanium/0/0/0
Potassium/5/1/1
Boron/278/12/155
Silicon/37/41/29
Sodium/5/2/4
Calcium/4/6/77
Magnesium/9/13/13
Phosphorus/3069/1591/1430
Zinc/7/14/52
Barium/6/0/8
SUS@210F/83.7/93.4
Flashpoint/420/425
H2O/0.0/0.0
Insolubles/0.2/0.3

Honda recommends SAE 90 GL5 hyploid type gear oil.
 
They must be drastically different driving styles, because both units have roughly the same total mileage and same drain interval.
 
These are definately two different units, but it's the closest comparison that I could find. There were some changes to the diff casing for the MY04 also. It measures a little bit thinner, but is supposed to be stronger somehow.
The only true trend analysis I have is for the MY04 (my car), but both UOA's are of LE 607 with similar results. I posted those on this website previously.
I have also seen a UOA comparison on a MY00 S2000 with 75W90 M1 gear oil vs RL Heavy Duty Shock Proof gear oil, but they only have 4K kilometers on each (1 month each) sample. The car is FI (SC) with after market 4.44 gears instead of 4.10 OEM. He is a very aggressive driver (more than myself and the MY03 owner I would think). The M1 analysis looked very similar to LE 607, while the RL Shock Proof numbers were miniscule in comparison.
The RL in the MY03 was changed to LE 607 about a year ago. If the owner posts a UOA for it, I'll update this post.
 
Anyone notice the viscosity difference?
Thicker gear oil protects better is all I get from the UOAs. Nothing new there!

2 different vehicles, 2 different driving styles, 2 different mileage runs, unknown previous fluid or if rinse was performed,......there is no VERSUS here. Should've posted the UOAs separately along with as many others as possible for your comparison study.

With the number of trucks/SUVs using 140wt gear oil in the rearend now, and with the issues that some of the s2000 owners have had, I think that Honda spec'd the wrong weight fluid.

This rearend needs a 75w140 or really thick 90, like any other undersized OEM rearend application. Or, when the SAE J306 specs finally becomes accepted, a 75w110 or 110wt would be a good choice. Under the newer proposed J306, 21cst fluid like the LE-607 or Maxgear 75w90 would actually be 110wts!

Now, convince some owners to try the 75w140 gear oils for UOA data. Thicker gear oil should only help. Royalpurple Maxgear 75w90 is also pretty thick. Avoid the thin 90wt oils which are almost all other 75w90's. Or, just run a 50:50 blend of the common(M1, RL, Ams, Neo) 90 and 140 weights if you don't want to go too thick.
 
Good stuff Undummy. I too think there is something to the "thicker is better" theory. Do you have any data to add (UOA's or EP tests) to back up these suggestions? I think the limiting factors on which gear oil to use for most street driven S2000's is current climate and product availability though. Although I don't know the pour point of RL HD SP, it seems to be enjoyed by many in the racing crowd, but most say they wouldn't try to use it in the winter months. LE 607, with a -11degF pour point and 1000+ Newton EP test seems like it's becoming more popular along with Amsoil 75W90 (-46degF, 350 N EP test). I have not seen a UOA of Amsoil yet, but hope to.
 
The data to back up these suggestions is in the 1st post of this thread. View the Redline and LE target visc specs from their websites. There's a ~5 cst difference in OEM specs between the 2. The UOAs show a ~10 SUS difference in specs. The PPM/K wear was higher with the thinner fluid. What more proof do you need?

I've worked in manufacturing. Various gearboxes and machinery, all splash lubed, would last longer with proper fluid selection. Thicker always worked better up to a point. You don't see me recommending 250wt gear oil here. There needs to be a reasonable flow and drainback. Go too thick would be bad. Some manual transmissions and transfer cases have this problem. If they come filled with ATF, I'll usually recommend a synchromesh, MTF or MTL as a longevity mod. But dumping gear oil into a x-case or tranny that is filled with ATF, can starve certain areas leading to short life. There a line between flow and film thickness that you need to experiment with and draw your own conclusion.

More proof is from the OEM level truck/suvs which also have, over the last decade, seem to also be pushing 140wt which kinda contradicts the MPG movement. Why recommend a thicker gear oil? Just look at the power new engines produce, the weight of the vehicles, working conditions, and the strength of the components which were manufactured where and how?

There's also a pretty decent rearend cover market. Most of these increase diff capacity, additional cooling fin surface area,...... all which keep the gear oil cooler which in turn makes the rearend last longer. If the 'end last longer with cooler fluid, and cooler fluid is thicker, can we guess that thicker fluid protects better?

If the thicker gear oil is too difficult too accept, improving the cooling of the diff should be considered. If it truly is so fragile, you should consider a remote diff cooling pump circuit, or break out the welder and add more cooling fin area.
 
Good stuff once again Undummy. I'm glad you're starting to come around to my original post having at least some comparison merit, although I agree that it's not quite all inclusive. I certainly have requested that others report their findings, but there seems to be great apathy unless it's a engine oil UOA.
I personally do like how the LE 607 performs (it's also been shown to reduce diff temps by 10degF on average over several other GL 5 gear oils) and will probably continue to use it.
 
I would like to see a comparison with redline shockproof heavy... might be interesting.
75w90 is almost redline's lightest gear oil.
Also as mentioned above you cant compare 2 different vehicles, driving styles, years directly.
 
Quote:

I would like to see a comparison with redline shockproof heavy... might be interesting.
75w90 is almost redline's lightest gear oil.
Also as mentioned above you cant compare 2 different vehicles, driving styles, years directly.

Click to expand...


You ask and you shall receive! These 2 samples are taken from a 2000 Honda S2000 with FI (SC) and 4.44 final drive gears. The first is Mobil 1 75W90 at 35K kms and 4K kms on the sample. The second is RL Heavy Duty Shockproof at 39K kms with 4K kms on the sample. Wear Check MOB did the analysis.

Element/M1/RL HD SP
Silicon/21/164
Potassium/0.0/0.0
Iron/183/116
Nickel/15/3.7
Chromium/2.0/2.6
Titanium/5.2/3.2
Copper/0.5/3.2
Aluminum/12/62
Tin/0.0/12
Lead/0.0/5.6
Silver/0.0/1.9
Boron/352/22
Barium/0.9/0.6
Calcium/8.5/10000
Magnesium/3.0/149
Moly/0.0/3997
Sodium/2.7/64
Phosphorus/2010/1605
Sulfur/17909/17864
Zinc/7.0/10
Visc@40C/102/none provided

That's about it. The lab was concerned about the Al reading with RLSP.
 
""Thicker always worked better up to a point. You don't see me recommending 250wt gear oil here. There needs to be a reasonable flow and drainback. Go too thick would be bad.""

Other than PP or flow problems at cold temp thicker is better been shown to me many times gears LIKE thick oil thickest you can use IMHO 80/90 is way to thin 75/140 or straight 140 are good.
bruce
 
Sorry I missed this thread earlier. Hope somebody is still watching.

I put LE-607 in my Ford F-250 year before last and ran some oil temp tests. I've run it through two winters (truck sits outside) and about 8000 miles of varied driving and some very serious hauling (31 tons of grain wagons a couple of times). This spring I will be swapping out the R&Ps for different ratios. Would an oil analysis provide any useful data for this discussion, given the use I described? If so, I'll do it. If not, I'll save my money. And Yes, I'm going to put LE-607 back in!
 
Quote:

Sorry I missed this thread earlier. Hope somebody is still watching.

I put LE-607 in my Ford F-250 year before last and ran some oil temp tests. I've run it through two winters (truck sits outside) and about 8000 miles of varied driving and some very serious hauling (31 tons of grain wagons a couple of times). This spring I will be swapping out the R&Ps for different ratios. Would an oil analysis provide any useful data for this discussion, given the use I described? If so, I'll do it. If not, I'll save my money. And Yes, I'm going to put LE-607 back in!

Click to expand...


I remember your post on oil temp comparisons. It was excellent and is the type of information (unbiased) that I prefer to read in this forum, but I enjoy some of the hype too! Please do a UOA if it's convenient for you. Have you done any other UOA's from your current final drive gears in the past to compare results? Do you have an old egg beater to do the famous "will it attract, or repell" test on your used LE 607?
Where do you buy your LE products? My current supplier doesn't seem to answer my emails anymore.
 
INDYMAC: No old egg beaters around here! I got mine direct from LE, which was possible because it was for a magazine story. I have just enough left for the next change. I'll do a test. The axle is well broken in at this point, and given how many times it was flushed out, whatever wear metals we see will come from the oil.
 
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