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#3453669 - 08/12/14 03:37 PM Re: BMW filter options [Re: Quattro Pete]
route66mike Offline


Registered: 07/09/14
Posts: 147
Loc: Ft. Collins
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: ElastoHydro
The only clue we have about the filtration efficiency of Mahle or Mann or Hengst German oil filters is that it appears they don't use glass fibers, they use only paper cellulose media.

Mann/Mahle do use synthetic fiber media (fleece) in some applications...
***Image of mercedes benze oil filter from Mann****


Thats a good exception, only fitted to Mercedes. BMWs, no. Nice if they made it for BMWs, the subject of this thread.

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#3453671 - 08/12/14 03:40 PM Re: BMW filter options [Re: Quattro Pete]
route66mike Offline


Registered: 07/09/14
Posts: 147
Loc: Ft. Collins
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
How do you define performance? It's a fine balancing act between filtration efficiency and flow. Filtration efficiency alone is not everything.


With positive displacement oil pumps and the only minor differences between all oil filters that meet or exceed OEM specs for pressure drop, flow is not an issue. Thats why I've been sticking to discussions of which oil filter is best at getting small particles out of the oil, not flow.

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#3453672 - 08/12/14 03:41 PM Re: BMW filter options [Re: srbarnes4ever]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2657
Loc: Upper Midwest
Somehow I'm having a real hard time being worried about this, I know it's all over Bitog but still. It's not that I don't believe that one might be marginally better than another, I just don't seen the compelling need to change.

But I have an even harder time believing that BMW would spec a truly inferior filter specification just so their engines would wear out faster. After seeing the sometimes ridiculous over-engineering in both my old BMW and my friend's five other ones, to think that they would deliberately under-engineer the oil filters is a stretch - at least to me.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 189K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 306K
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#3453677 - 08/12/14 03:47 PM Re: BMW filter options [Re: srbarnes4ever]
route66mike Offline


Registered: 07/09/14
Posts: 147
Loc: Ft. Collins
^^^^^BMW has always been a little odd on durability and performance on some of its parts. For example, the lower front control arm fluid filled bushings on 5 series E60 suspensions frequently fail at 70,000 miles or so. Their transmissions have dumb weaknesses in them, like mechatronic sleeves that leak often, and gear shifts that are abrupt at times. The polymers they use for window trim are the worst of any makes according to what I've seen and what windshield shops say.

The Mann/Mahle/Hengst oil filters will easily get you through warranty periods and beyond. You'll likely never see or feel the extra wear the extra particles have caused.

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#3453680 - 08/12/14 03:50 PM Re: BMW filter options [Re: route66mike]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2657
Loc: Upper Midwest
OK, yes the ones on my E34 are the same. But that wasn't a deliberate sabotaging of the design to get me to replace them, it is over-engineering that failed (IMHO).

Mine failed at about 125,000 miles with the characteristic vibration at 55-60 MPH.

Originally Posted By: route66mike
^^^^^BMW has always been a little odd on durability and performance on some of its parts. For example, the lower front control arm fluid filled bushings on 5 series E60 suspensions frequently fail at 70,000 miles or so. Their transmissions have dumb weaknesses in them, like mechatronic sleeves that leak often, and gear shifts that are abrupt at times. The polymers they use for window trim are the worst of any makes according to what I've seen and what windshield shops say.
_________________________
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1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 306K
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#3453691 - 08/12/14 04:07 PM Re: BMW filter options [Re: kschachn]
crw Offline


Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 1638
Loc: Pocatello, ID
Originally Posted By: kschachn


Originally Posted By: route66mike
^^^^^BMW has always been a little odd on durability and performance on some of its parts.


Without shooting the messenger, the first responder said "the filter choice isn't what is going to break your engine." Very true. This effort to find the right parts should be directed at the cooling system.

I'm not sure when the problems started and when they ended, but the cooling system is what ended my love affair with the brand.
_________________________
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#3453699 - 08/12/14 04:15 PM Re: BMW filter options [Re: srbarnes4ever]
route66mike Offline


Registered: 07/09/14
Posts: 147
Loc: Ft. Collins
Its a legitimate question to ask if the extra filtration performance, getting out stuff in the range of 2 to 15 microns, is worth getting. Why not? Until someone shows me that more particles in startup and other semi-hydrodynamic lube regimes (like the valvetrain) is better, I tend to want less particles.

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#3453713 - 08/12/14 04:29 PM Re: BMW filter options [Re: route66mike]
crw Offline


Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 1638
Loc: Pocatello, ID
Originally Posted By: route66mike
Its a legitimate question to ask if the extra filtration performance, getting out stuff in the range of 2 to 15 microns, is worth getting. Why not? Until someone shows me that more particles in startup and other semi-hydrodynamic lube regimes (like the valvetrain) is better, I tend to want less particles.


It is, by all means, buy the best super-hootie filter and be done with it. But when it comes to "breaking" the engine, the cooling left me stranded three times in two years, and DID break my engine when the head gasket blew due to repeated overheating. It's just a matter of perspective (IMHO) and looking at what's really going to hurt you. But I am changing the subject... sorry. I'm done now.
_________________________
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#3453769 - 08/12/14 05:20 PM Re: BMW filter options [Re: srbarnes4ever]
SilverC6 Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 1466
Loc: Southeast
When do you FRAM boys get your next shipment of free Ultras from FRAM?

For anyone who might want to know, I occasionally use FRAM oil filters.

I use most brands of oil filters.

But you FRAM boys just have one answer for every question about oil filters - FRAM Ultra.

Everyone understands, ad nauseum, your position.

It's obvious that you approach oil filters with a near religious fervor.

You should certainly save this kind of conviction for other, more important things in life.

I throw my used FRAM oil filters in the same garbage can where I pitch my Mahles.

They are disposable filters guys.
_________________________
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'08 BMW Z4M Coupe TWS 10W60
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#3453782 - 08/12/14 05:35 PM Re: BMW filter options [Re: boundarylayer]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26391
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: boundarylayer
Another reason not to use a cellulose only media oil filter, see the 4th page down in this document (the rest of the doc is good too): http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/070618.pdf


How do you know the OEM filters are cellulose only? The media looks no different from any of the filters you've posted that you claim are glass impregnated. They could contain Kryptonite for all you know.

Similar to how Ford spec's their own media for their Purolator assembled filters, we really have no idea what the OEM filters are using. What we do know is that they meet the requirements of the OEM, in this case, BMW. I don't know why we can trust them to build a car but not trust them to spec an appropriate oil filter? shrug
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#3453892 - 08/12/14 07:02 PM Re: BMW filter options [Re: OVERKILL]
boundarylayer Offline


Registered: 06/29/14
Posts: 202
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: boundarylayer
Another reason not to use a cellulose only media oil filter, see the 4th page down in this document (the rest of the doc is good too): http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/070618.pdf


How do you know the OEM filters are cellulose only? The media looks no different from any of the filters you've posted that you claim are glass impregnated. They could contain Kryptonite for all you know.

Similar to how Ford spec's their own media for their Purolator assembled filters, we really have no idea what the OEM filters are using. What we do know is that they meet the requirements of the OEM, in this case, BMW. I don't know why we can trust them to build a car but not trust them to spec an appropriate oil filter? shrug


How to know if they are cellulose? We don't. Although BMW showed a microscopic view of the media on youtube a while back (video about getting non-BMW-approved Chinese counterfeits), and the micro view didn't show the glass fibers, only a woody thicket of cellulose jagged branches. Since Mann/Hengst/Mahle doesn't say they blend in glass fibers, I'll say they don't do that; its cellulose only.

We can trust BMW to allow minimum-spec oil filters in their cars. The OP wanted to know if better was available, and it is available, given the info we have and being minimally observant as to media surface area.

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#3453952 - 08/12/14 07:57 PM Re: BMW filter options [Re: SilverC6]
ZeeOSix Offline


Registered: 07/22/10
Posts: 7414
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
When do you FRAM boys get your next shipment of free Ultras from FRAM?

But you FRAM boys just have one answer for every question about oil filters - FRAM Ultra.

Everyone understands, ad nauseum, your position.


Still waiting for my free shipment ... LOL. If say the WIX XP had the same performance specs as the Ultra, then I guess it would be ad nauseum and "free XPs" instead.

If a filter came out in a white can with a big black X on the side that was the same as the Ultra, then I guess people would be liking and raving about the "brand X" filter. It's what's inside and the performance specs, not the name on the can from my viewpoint.

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#3453957 - 08/12/14 08:01 PM Re: BMW filter options [Re: srbarnes4ever]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9217
Loc: PA
Completely agree with the idea of going with what is known about a product.

Efficiency and composition numbers are known for other filters and not known for BMW filters. True. We also know something about BMW filters, though -- namely, that BMW approves of and recommends them for use in BMW engines for up to 15k+ OCIs. Third party filters do not come with the same assurance.

Hate to be inflammatory, but I have to say this thread reminds me of an Amsoil sales job. Look at all these graphs! Don't listen to those OE approvals or our lack thereof; obviously our product peforms better because we have numbers!

Yes, BMW has screwed up with their parts and materials choices in the past. Typically, when the failure mode becomes clear, the aftermarket steps in with products that claim to solve the problem. Every once in a while, those aftermarket products succeed without causing other problems. So far, no such thing has happened with BMW's filters. If it does, that's when we'll have something to talk about. Until then, all of this is theorizing at best.
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#3453960 - 08/12/14 08:06 PM Re: BMW filter options [Re: boundarylayer]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26391
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: boundarylayer

How to know if they are cellulose? We don't.


Exactly.

Originally Posted By: boundarylayer
Although BMW showed a microscopic view of the media on youtube a while back (video about getting non-BMW-approved Chinese counterfeits), and the micro view didn't show the glass fibers, only a woody thicket of cellulose jagged branches.


So we are to base the construct of the filters and material choice off of a marketing video? I am familiar with the video BTW and its purpose was to convey the risks and potential pitfalls of using counterfeit parts, not give us an anatomy lesson on oil filters smile

Originally Posted By: boundarylayer
Since Mann/Hengst/Mahle doesn't say they blend in glass fibers, I'll say they don't do that; its cellulose only.


They don't say that they don't either. Mann/Purolator certainly has access to (and produces under the Purolator moniker) synthetic glass media, as would the others through contracts with companies like Donaldson if they didn't want to produce it in-house. And ultimately it doesn't matter, the media is spec'd by the OEM, not the contractor, like, as I already noted, Ford's filters from Purolator. Donaldson makes a huge variety of filters too from ones that are plain old cellulose to synthetic glass media (a technology which they pioneered). They'll make a filter of any type using any type of media for an OEM on a given contract because that's what contractors do.

Originally Posted By: boundarylayer
We can trust BMW to allow minimum-spec oil filters in their cars.


We can trust BMW to spec a filter that provides a guaranteed level of performance, a level they feel is adequate to protect the engines they manufacture.

Originally Posted By: boundarylayer
The OP wanted to know if better was available, and it is available, given the info we have and being minimally observant as to media surface area.


I would say the only one we know is "better" is the FRAM Ultra, and that is in filtration. However, we have, as I noted earlier, observed the media/end-cap separation, which makes me wary of that filter in this particular application. That doesn't mean it isn't an exceptional FILTER; it is. Simply that its construction in terms of how the media is bonded to the end-caps has me worried based on that failure.

I'm not trying to be difficult, I simply don't feel we have enough here to be able to draw these lines in the sand.
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