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#2682973 - 07/13/12 03:19 PM Castrol LL 5W30, 10183 miles, 2010 Jetta TDI
vwthingman Offline


Registered: 05/16/10
Posts: 70
Loc: Southern Illinois
Here is my latest UOA from Blackstone Labs on my 2010 Jetta at 30K miles. The oil was VW approved Castrol LL 5W30. This run was mainly in town driving with lots of short trips. I am not sure what to make of the comments, so any help is much appreciated.

_________________________
U.S.A.F. 1984-1995
2010 TDI Jetta
2006 Lincoln Mark LT
2010 Toyota Rav4 3.5l
1974 VW Thing

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#2682993 - 07/13/12 03:44 PM Re: Castrol LL 5W30, 10183 miles, 2010 Jetta TDI [Re: vwthingman]
MBS500 Offline


Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 665
Loc: Crestwood,KY
Wonder why Iron jumped up... Did you have more hwy driving before?
Otherwise it is still braking in.
_________________________
13 Fiat 500Turbo:9k,M1 0w40/Mopar filter+Ceratec
06 BMW 550i:81k,Mag1 5w40/Champ filter+MoS2
06 Frontier:110k,Oil lefovers mix/P1

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#2683101 - 07/13/12 05:58 PM Re: Castrol LL 5W30, 10183 miles, 2010 Jetta TDI [Re: vwthingman]
balalayka Offline


Registered: 07/02/12
Posts: 18
Loc: Arkhangelsk, Russia
What is your driving manner ?
_________________________
BMW 525d, E60, LCI, noEGR, DPF, remap +70hp, -30F usual winter start, Chempioil + AR1

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#2683323 - 07/13/12 09:53 PM Re: Castrol LL 5W30, 10183 miles, 2010 Jetta TDI [Re: balalayka]
vwthingman Offline


Registered: 05/16/10
Posts: 70
Loc: Southern Illinois
It is driven with mileage in mind (slow & steady acceleration), but due to being in a large metropolitan area/city, it does have some fast take offs because of getting on to the highways and lane changes.
_________________________
U.S.A.F. 1984-1995
2010 TDI Jetta
2006 Lincoln Mark LT
2010 Toyota Rav4 3.5l
1974 VW Thing

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#2683468 - 07/14/12 02:20 AM Re: Castrol LL 5W30, 10183 miles, 2010 Jetta TDI [Re: vwthingman]
balalayka Offline


Registered: 07/02/12
Posts: 18
Loc: Arkhangelsk, Russia
Originally Posted By: vwthingman
It is driven with mileage in mind (slow & steady acceleration), but due to being in a large metropolitan area/city, it does have some fast take offs because of getting on to the highways and lane changes.


I'd reduce OCI to 5km because of town driving. It should be mentioned in manual.

Town driving, sulphur in diesel more than 50ppm kills starting TBN and oil very quick, especially ACEA C3 oils. TAN in UOA could answer some questions.

Try ACEA A3/B4 (B4) with VW505.01 approval and shorter OCI during town driving.
_________________________
BMW 525d, E60, LCI, noEGR, DPF, remap +70hp, -30F usual winter start, Chempioil + AR1

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#2685675 - 07/16/12 01:28 PM Re: Castrol LL 5W30, 10183 miles, 2010 Jetta TDI [Re: vwthingman]
edhackett Online   content


Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1537
Loc: Sequim, WA
Looks like a head gasket problem to me. One that is obvious in the first UOA. The high Al and Fe are from a cylinder(s) being damaged by coolant ingress.

Potassium is not used in any oils, but is found in coolants. Some coolant formulations such as G-05 contain no sodium as an additional clue.

Ed
_________________________
Never attribute to engineers that into which politicians, lawyers, accountants, and marketeers have poked their fingers.

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#2703866 - 08/03/12 12:35 PM Re: Castrol LL 5W30, 10183 miles, 2010 Jetta TDI [Re: edhackett]
skyship Offline


Registered: 06/09/12
Posts: 2071
Loc: Tettnang, Baden-Wurttemberg, G...
Looks nasty to me too, but I can't confirm if this is a coolant leak or not, because I don't know what is in the virgin oil or what is used for a coolant. If the oil does not have Potassium (Can't think of any oils I have used that do) then this might be a coolant leak that appears to be slowly stopping.
In town driving is real tough on an engine and I would think about cutting the OCI in half because apart from the wear metals being too high, the TBN is too low. For severe duty it should not go below about 3 in my opinion.

Originally Posted By: edhackett
Looks like a head gasket problem to me. One that is obvious in the first UOA. The high Al and Fe are from a cylinder(s) being damaged by coolant ingress.

Potassium is not used in any oils, but is found in coolants. Some coolant formulations such as G-05 contain no sodium as an additional clue.

Ed


Edited by skyship (08/03/12 12:49 PM)

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#2703991 - 08/03/12 02:22 PM Re: Castrol LL 5W30, 10183 miles, 2010 Jetta TDI [Re: edhackett]
AlienBug Offline


Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 430
Loc: Connecticut
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Looks like a head gasket problem to me. One that is obvious in the first UOA. The high Al and Fe are from a cylinder(s) being damaged by coolant ingress.

Potassium is not used in any oils, but is found in coolants. Some coolant formulations such as G-05 contain no sodium as an additional clue.

Ed


Potassium has trended down 80% in two oil changes. Is the head gasket leak fixing itself?
_________________________
Don

2005 Ford Freestyle SEL, 120k, Motorcraft 5w20 synblend, Motorcraft filter

2000 Nissan Maxima SE, 160k, Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30, Extended Guard

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#2704012 - 08/03/12 02:50 PM Re: Castrol LL 5W30, 10183 miles, 2010 Jetta TDI [Re: vwthingman]
zanzabar Offline


Registered: 06/21/09
Posts: 394
Loc: NorCal
The potassium is probably just remnant of some break-in issue, the fact that it's trending down is good.

All metals other than iron are looking fine and totally normal for break-in wear. It takes 50-100k for a TDI to 'break in', so high iron and to a lesser extent some of the other metals are not really worth worrying about.

With that said though, that upward spike in iron is troubling and I'm VERY suspicious of this 5w30 oil. It is almost certainly linked to the premature cam wear in the PD TDIs and I suspect it is not optimal for the later models either. Move to a different oil: Mobil1 ESP Formula M 5w40. The dealers have it you probably just have to request it. That or any other reputable 5-40 diesel oil that meets the VW 505.01/507 spec (there are many, the important part is that it's a 40wt).
_________________________
2014 Ford Focus (1k miles)
2009 Honda Fit (95k miles)
2001 VW Passat 1.8T (died@180k)
many VW TDIs (200+k miles)
2004 Mercedes C320 (210k miles)

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#2704135 - 08/03/12 05:34 PM Re: Castrol LL 5W30, 10183 miles, 2010 Jetta TDI [Re: zanzabar]
skyship Offline


Registered: 06/09/12
Posts: 2071
Loc: Tettnang, Baden-Wurttemberg, G...
Good point by Zanzabar, because there might have been a Potassium compound in the factory fill as some break in oils or some light greases used during engine assembly are different to normal engine oils.

One difficulty with interpreting UOA results is that if you don't know exactly what was in the engine before you started an oil analysis program and what the virgin oil analysis is, then it can get confusing.

How do the wear metal results compare with other results for the same engine, as they seem too high to me?
Lower viscosity oils flow around the block faster when hot and just because they might offer slightly less protection when hot, does not mean they will produce less engine wear. Local hot spots can increase it in some engines, so as this engine seems to be approved for both 5/30 and 5/40, it would be best to ask on a VW forum which viscosity is best. In addition I would definitely ask a VW dealer what type of oil should be used and if a Zinc additive is recommended.

The real interesting point is the low TBN in some ways, as most VW TDI's seem to suffer from cam wear issues to some degree and it would be interesting to see if cutting the OCI to 5,000 miles solves the problem. The TDI oil filter is rated for 30K km oil changes as far as I can tell from the LM oil guide, so it would be better to do alternate service filter changes to take advantage of the filtration efficiency increase that occurs with moderately dirty filters.


Originally Posted By: zanzabar
The potassium is probably just remnant of some break-in issue, the fact that it's trending down is good.

All metals other than iron are looking fine and totally normal for break-in wear. It takes 50-100k for a TDI to 'break in', so high iron and to a lesser extent some of the other metals are not really worth worrying about.

With that said though, that upward spike in iron is troubling and I'm VERY suspicious of this 5w30 oil. It is almost certainly linked to the premature cam wear in the PD TDIs and I suspect it is not optimal for the later models either. Move to a different oil: Mobil1 ESP Formula M 5w40. The dealers have it you probably just have to request it. That or any other reputable 5-40 diesel oil that meets the VW 505.01/507 spec (there are many, the important part is that it's a 40wt).

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#2704281 - 08/03/12 08:34 PM Re: Castrol LL 5W30, 10183 miles, 2010 Jetta TDI [Re: vwthingman]
edhackett Online   content


Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1537
Loc: Sequim, WA
Typically there is only 10%, maybe 15% carry over of old oil during a change. If the K was from the original oil or a break-in additive you would expect the K to be in the 30-50 ppm range in the second change and no more than 10 in the last change. The slow decline in values indicates, to me, a decreasing, yet persistent influx of K. If it wasn't for this, I'd be inclined to think that this was just an oil run too long for the conditions.

Ed
_________________________
Never attribute to engineers that into which politicians, lawyers, accountants, and marketeers have poked their fingers.

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#2704409 - 08/03/12 11:42 PM Re: Castrol LL 5W30, 10183 miles, 2010 Jetta TDI [Re: skyship]
zanzabar Offline


Registered: 06/21/09
Posts: 394
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: skyship

it would be best to ask on a VW forum which viscosity is best.


Right...and the answer is any of the good 505.01/507 or otherwise reputable 5w40 oils.

Originally Posted By: skyship

In addition I would definitely ask a VW dealer what type of oil should be used and if a Zinc additive is recommended.


Ugh, no - definitely don't ask the dealer! They're the ones pushing this 5w30 death fluid!!!
_________________________
2014 Ford Focus (1k miles)
2009 Honda Fit (95k miles)
2001 VW Passat 1.8T (died@180k)
many VW TDIs (200+k miles)
2004 Mercedes C320 (210k miles)

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#2704554 - 08/04/12 07:11 AM Re: Castrol LL 5W30, 10183 miles, 2010 Jetta TDI [Re: zanzabar]
skyship Offline


Registered: 06/09/12
Posts: 2071
Loc: Tettnang, Baden-Wurttemberg, G...
I can't think any owner would use an oil not approved or at least with an oil company recommendation for the VW TDI engine model concerned, but I didn't check the full VW specs.

It is very rare for a main dealer to recommend an oil that would damage an engine. The only reason I don't use Castrol Edge 5/40 for example is that it is expensive in Germany and I think the LM Synthoil 5/40 is just as good, BUT VW TDI's are fussy engines in oil terms, so unless you have seen good UOA results from changing from 5/30 to 5/40, which might well be the case, I would just stick to the dealer recommended oil & filter and cut the OCI to 5,000 miles. A 5/40 oil nearly always declines to a 5/30 after 10K, but a longlife 5/30 stays at 5/30, so there is less of a difference than people think.

I measured my residual old oil for an oil and filter change at only 5%, but it will be near to 20% with an oil only change as the filter is fairly big on my 1.9TD. 80% new oil is fine for raising the TBN figures and dumping some insolubles.


Originally Posted By: zanzabar
Originally Posted By: skyship

it would be best to ask on a VW forum which viscosity is best.


Right...and the answer is any of the good 505.01/507 or otherwise reputable 5w40 oils.

Originally Posted By: skyship

In addition I would definitely ask a VW dealer what type of oil should be used and if a Zinc additive is recommended.


Ugh, no - definitely don't ask the dealer! They're the ones pushing this 5w30 death fluid!!!

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#2714311 - 08/14/12 11:53 AM Re: Castrol LL 5W30, 10183 miles, 2010 Jetta TDI [Re: edhackett]
Brons2 Offline


Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 2484
Loc: Austin, Texas
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Looks like a head gasket problem to me. One that is obvious in the first UOA. The high Al and Fe are from a cylinder(s) being damaged by coolant ingress.

Potassium is not used in any oils, but is found in coolants. Some coolant formulations such as G-05 contain no sodium as an additional clue.

Ed


Nonsense. Potassium is common in the first few UOA's on VW common-rail TDI engines, check the analysis posted at tdiclub for proof.
_________________________
Mine: 2007 Kia Rondo LX 2.4 I4 5 pass, MC5K 5w20, OEM filter
Hers: 2010 Rav4 Sport 2.5 I4, M1 5w20, OEM filter

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#2743731 - 09/14/12 01:46 PM Re: Castrol LL 5W30, 10183 miles, 2010 Jetta TDI [Re: vwthingman]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1232
Loc: Atlanta,GA
FYI...507 by definition must be 30 weight. Unless things have changed.
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'10 335d (Castrol Edge 5w-30, LL04)
'15 435i - German Elves building.

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