This is why we can't have nice things ...

Posted by: Miller88

This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 09:58 AM

I love NY!


The rear of the car had 1/4'' of salt powder from salt spray drawn in from the vacuum!

Had to do 160 miles on Christmas day.

It's about 15 out so I am going to try to spray it off. The good news is my grease / oil is holding up underneath.
Posted by: demarpaint

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 10:19 AM

That's one of the many reasons why we own a beater.
Posted by: JTK

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 10:23 AM

LOL.. That's why you have to own variants of silver/grey. Hide all the winter time schmutz. I rarely wash the exterior all winter. 1 mile from the car wash and it looks like your car anyway.
Posted by: ClutchDisc

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 10:31 AM

Mine looks just as bad....I hate salt!
Posted by: eljefino

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 10:52 AM

Good news is if you want to do any aero mods the salt spray pattern will show you how successful you were....
Posted by: SLCraig

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 10:53 AM

My car is worse right now, you can't even see the black centres of my steel winter rims because they are white crusted with salt.

I do a lot of driving though so its totally unavoidable sadly. Frustrating is not the word.

Krown (Canada) and wash regularly is all you can do.
Posted by: Miller88

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 11:53 AM

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
That's one of the many reasons why we own a beater.


Well ... I drive this in the winter to keep the 14 year old Jeep from rusting. One or the other.

I was considering picking up a winter beater this year. I am thinking of putting the Jeep away for next winter and getting a beater Focus.
Posted by: BHopkins

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 12:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
That's one of the many reasons why we own a beater.


Well ... I drive this in the winter to keep the 14 year old Jeep from rusting.


You really think it's possible to keep a Jeep from rusting? tongue2
Posted by: sciphi

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 12:47 PM

Yep, mine looks like that too. Rustproof and don't wash it until spring.
Posted by: JHZR2

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 01:05 PM

ehhh, no worries. If youre correctly rustproofed, wax sometimes, and wash with a good de-salting product (like salt away), it will shine up nicely in the spring and Id not be concerned.

If youre not well rustproofed, then I might be concerned.
Posted by: Miller88

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 01:06 PM

Originally Posted By: BHopkins
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
That's one of the many reasons why we own a beater.


Well ... I drive this in the winter to keep the 14 year old Jeep from rusting.


You really think it's possible to keep a Jeep from rusting? tongue2


Good point! Slow down the rust! Sitting on a paved, unsalted portion of the parking lot is the best I can do for now.


Originally Posted By: JHZR2
ehhh, no worries. If youre correctly rustproofed, wax sometimes, and wash with a good de-salting product (like salt away), it will shine up nicely in the spring and Id not be concerned.

If youre not well rustproofed, then I might be concerned.


Waxed it in the fall and spray with oil underneath throughout the winter.
Posted by: Rand

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 01:32 PM

sitting isnt really good for jeeps.. all kind of stuff have a tendancy to quit working after sitting for a month or 2
Posted by: Miller88

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 02:25 PM

Such as the HVAC being stuck on defrost ...

I take it out every two weeks if the roads are dry and there is very little risk for salt spray. Run up to the northern suburbs and back on the highway. About 45 miles or so. Gets it up to temperature and oil circulating pretty well. Then fill with gas a mile from home and park.

If we *do* get a major snowstorm with 2 or 3 Feet, I will have no choice but to drive it in the snow.

But if there's any chance of snow, it sits still smile
Posted by: RISUPERCREWMAN

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 02:46 PM

I keep my 2008 F-150 Harley Davidson Edition parked during the winter months to avoid it being exposed to salt. With the price of trucks nowadays I don't want to be buying another one anytime soon!
Posted by: antiqueshell

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 03:40 PM

Better to have the salt residue that a totaled car due to an accident caused by slippery conditions.
Posted by: Miller88

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 04:05 PM

Why can't people be responsible for their own actions and buy a $500 set of snow tires every 4 years?

Instead, people that "can't afford" to buy snow tires every few years need to buy a completely different vehicle because they rust in half.

If people would just run decent tires in the winter, they wouldn't have to salt so much. I wouldn't have to worry about a 14 year old vehicle rusting into oblivion and my taxes would be lower from not having to pay for steep maintenance to bridges.
Posted by: supton

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 04:30 PM

Where is the problem? That looks pretty clean to me.

I don't think I've managed more than three years on a set of snows. And those were not $500 ones! Next time I buy a set tho I may well try a cheapo set, they can't be any worse. Then again, what with "needing" then for upwards of five months out of the year...
Posted by: dailydriver

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 06:08 PM

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Good news is if you want to do any aero mods the salt spray pattern will show you how successful you were....


^^^ crackmeup
Posted by: JHZR2

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 09:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Why can't people be responsible for their own actions and buy a $500 set of snow tires every 4 years?

Instead, people that "can't afford" to buy snow tires every few years need to buy a completely different vehicle because they rust in half.

If people would just run decent tires in the winter, they wouldn't have to salt so much. I wouldn't have to worry about a 14 year old vehicle rusting into oblivion and my taxes would be lower from not having to pay for steep maintenance to bridges.


+1. Driving is a privilege, and if folks can't afford the tires/stowage, not anyone elses' problem.
Posted by: 01rangerxl

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 09:43 PM

I'll put up with that once or twice a year, that's it. This would really be an issue for me living up north. After seeing my perfectly running Explorer crumble from rust (PA import to the south), that's really my biggest issue with a vehicle. You can throw a new engine or trans in, but rot is terminal.
Posted by: antiqueshell

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 10:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Why can't people be responsible for their own actions and buy a $500 set of snow tires every 4 years?

Instead, people that "can't afford" to buy snow tires every few years need to buy a completely different vehicle because they rust in half.

If people would just run decent tires in the winter, they wouldn't have to salt so much. I wouldn't have to worry about a 14 year old vehicle rusting into oblivion and my taxes would be lower from not having to pay for steep maintenance to bridges.


I wish miller88! Totally agreed.

Personal Responsibility is still widely practiced in Northern Europe. No longer (not since the 60s) has it been true in the USA.


That is a BIG problem in the USA. If we were in Germany/Austria/Sweden/Norway/Denmark/Netherlands ect that is exactly what you would see. Folks equipping their vehicles both inexpensive and expensive with proper tires for the season. Because in many of those nations failure to be prepared and a resulting accident could result in serious fines and or suspension of your license!
Posted by: KrisZ

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 10:14 PM

This is how my Mazda looks like most of the winter.



And this is how it looks like after a wash. Don't worry about the salt on the paint (unless you want it in showroom condition, in which case you wouldn't be driving the car in winter in the first place) it's the undercarriage and stuff you don't see that take the beating and should be rust proofed.


Posted by: Garak

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/27/13 10:30 PM

Mods should move this thread to the detailing section. It might give The Critic a stroke. wink
Posted by: Jarlaxle

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/28/13 06:00 AM

I couldn't wash my Dakota lately...just been too %^&*(&^$ cold!

I HATE winter.
Posted by: mikered30

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/28/13 07:11 AM

Hopefully you had had a quality sealant on the paint and did some rust proofing on the frame and suspension and wheel well before winter.
Posted by: dlundblad

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/28/13 07:30 AM

The amount of salt on the roads is too [censored] high!
Posted by: css9450

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/28/13 08:15 AM

My favorite season is winter. I love snow, so I put up with the other issues that come along with it. That said however, Illinois does use an awfully large amount of salt for the comparativly little snow we get (the news media however treats each half-inch snowfall like its a blizzard, but that's a topic for another thread).

I was out all day yesterday in some rural areas in northwestern Illinois. They used sand instead of salt. The roads were kind of half-slush, half ice. At one point my wheelwells were packed with a sand-ice mix! And then when I stopped, I left sandy hunks everywhere. I should try and get a pic today.
Posted by: css9450

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/28/13 08:24 AM

By the way, when I lived in Peoria they used cinders on the roads. I suspect they were free, a by-product of the power plants in the area. I don't know if they still use them.

Unlike salt, the cinders were not water-soluable, and remained on the shoulder of the road and along the curb for months. I was an avid bike rider, and was constantly having to fix flats caused by the razor-sharp cinders. Just can't win!
Posted by: SevenBizzos

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/28/13 11:53 AM

Pushing 50 degrees in the IL today. I washed the Sonata in the driveway. Then some interior cleaning and the garage floor got a washing to rid itself of the piles of salt that fell off the car over the last month. By Monday morning we'll be back below zero.

I try to keep the washing up to 5-6 day schedule, but sometimes it's just too cold to do so.

Most of the time the salt depth > snow depth.
Posted by: Fleetmon

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/28/13 12:20 PM

Man, I get more salt on my car than that just driving up my driveway.

Seriously, I feel for you and hate the stuff myself. Pa does very little to the roads where we live until after the storm is over but then they pour the chemicals on. Maryland, on the other had, shares their chemicals seemingly days before a storm.

We commute 150 miles per day so we carry our share of snow-melting concoctions home with us. I spend a furtune on touchless wash-o-mats!
Posted by: ClutchDisc

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/28/13 05:51 PM

Originally Posted By: SevenBizzos
Pushing 50 degrees in the IL today. I washed the Sonata in the driveway. Then some interior cleaning and the garage floor got a washing to rid itself of the piles of salt that fell off the car over the last month. By Monday morning we'll be back below zero.

I try to keep the washing up to 5-6 day schedule, but sometimes it's just too cold to do so.

Most of the time the salt depth > snow depth.

Same here! Got out and washed the S-10 off. Looks much better!
Posted by: dparm

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/28/13 06:25 PM

Ditto. Car washes were packed with people...half of them "bros" with huge jacked up trucks that took 20 minutes to rinse clean. Ugh.

I always thought a white car would look clean for a while longer in the winter, but it just ends up looking awful from the dirty water getting slung up.
Posted by: rjundi

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/28/13 09:35 PM

Our cars are both bad. We don't bother washing ours in NH winters and use the rain to do that. Unless our cars make us dirty entering then we go to a touchless wash if you fill gas for $5.

That all being said we seem to get 10-12 years ownership(~200k miles) which is fine by us.

I prefer salt/sand as roads clear quickly and you drive a good clip after. Winter tires still don't make up enough for ice.

Posted by: 01rangerxl

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/28/13 10:03 PM

That's a gnarly license plate bolt.
Posted by: HTSS_TR

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/28/13 10:11 PM

Originally Posted By: SevenBizzos
Pushing 50 degrees in the IL today. I washed the Sonata in the driveway. Then some interior cleaning and the garage floor got a washing to rid itself of the piles of salt that fell off the car over the last month. By Monday morning we'll be back below zero.

I try to keep the washing up to 5-6 day schedule, but sometimes it's just too cold to do so.

Most of the time the salt depth > snow depth.

You wash the car when it's only 50 degrees ? That's too cold to do anything outdoor for So Cal people. I only wash my cars when it's in the 70's or warmer, less than 70 then wait for few days.
Posted by: css9450

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/28/13 10:14 PM

Here's mine this morning. Doesn't look half as bad as I thought it might; I've seen much worse.

Tires are Dunlop Wintersport on Pontiac G6 wheels.

Posted by: Merkava_4

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/28/13 10:31 PM

Do people actually buy new cars and then drive them on the salt roads?
Posted by: rjundi

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/28/13 10:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Do people actually buy new cars and then drive them on the salt roads?


Yep! 8 years/162,000 miles on my wife's Subie since new and we expecting another 5 years out of it hopefully.
Posted by: Clevy

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/28/13 10:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Do people actually buy new cars and then drive them on the salt roads?



Nope. Most people buy vehicles and only drive them during the warmer months then take the bus during the winter.

Here salt is very rarely used. Sand and gravel for the most part. You only need salt when there are warm/cold cycles and the warm cycle melts the snow which turns into water which creates ice in the freeze cycle. Here there is no warm cycle,just cold so there is little to no ice.
And if there is some ice the gravel gives the tires traction. We see a lot of gravel at the stop lights and stop signs otherwise there isn't much.
I'm still driving on summer tires right now. 18" winter tires are insanely priced and I'm not paying those kinds of prices. The charger performs fantastic so I'm not worried.
Vehicles here rarely become rust buckets unless imported from the east.
Posted by: Jarlaxle

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/29/13 06:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Do people actually buy new cars and then drive them on the salt roads?



Nope. Most people buy vehicles and only drive them during the warmer months then take the bus during the winter.

Here salt is very rarely used. Sand and gravel for the most part. You only need salt when there are warm/cold cycles and the warm cycle melts the snow which turns into water which creates ice in the freeze cycle. Here there is no warm cycle,just cold so there is little to no ice.
And if there is some ice the gravel gives the tires traction. We see a lot of gravel at the stop lights and stop signs otherwise there isn't much.
I'm still driving on summer tires right now. 18" winter tires are insanely priced and I'm not paying those kinds of prices. The charger performs fantastic so I'm not worried.
Vehicles here rarely become rust buckets unless imported from the east.


Tire Rack has a set of snows in your size for $450.
Posted by: css9450

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/29/13 08:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Do people actually buy new cars and then drive them on the salt roads?


I suppose we could just stay home?

I drive a lot, espcially in winter. My "new" car (my Cobalt) already has 160,000 miles. I do however have a classic that stays in the garage safe and dry all winter though.
Posted by: sciphi

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/29/13 08:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Do people actually buy new cars and then drive them on the salt roads?


We have no choice. There's no public transportation and the job's 25 miles away. If I could take a warm bus in a reasonable amount of time/cost, I would. Instead I have to spend 4 hours a year rustproofing both cars and $1000 every 4-5 years on snow tires.
Posted by: Tdbo

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/29/13 08:52 AM

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: SevenBizzos
Pushing 50 degrees in the IL today. I washed the Sonata in the driveway. Then some interior cleaning and the garage floor got a washing to rid itself of the piles of salt that fell off the car over the last month. By Monday morning we'll be back below zero.

I try to keep the washing up to 5-6 day schedule, but sometimes it's just too cold to do so.

Most of the time the salt depth > snow depth.

You wash the car when it's only 50 degrees ?


If you are going to wash your car during a midwest winter, that's generally as good as it gets.
Posted by: Spazdog

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/29/13 11:24 AM

TX DOT has begun to spray the bridges with Magnesium Chloride.

It has some sort of adhesive in it to adhere to the bridges.

I wonder how long until our cars start to resemble New England cars?
Posted by: SevenBizzos

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/29/13 11:50 AM

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
You wash the car when it's only 50 degrees ? That's too cold to do anything outdoor for So Cal people. I only wash my cars when it's in the 70's or warmer, less than 70 then wait for few days.


Originally Posted By: Tdbo
If you are going to wash your car during a midwest winter, that's generally as good as it gets.


Depending on the wind, I can comfortably wash down to 45 degrees or so. I usually use warm water with the soap, so my hands don't get that cold.

Lower than that is a car wash. You can use those probably until about 15-20 degrees. The water freezes on the car too quickly below.

Any lower than that, I don't think the salt is doing to much to the car. Everything is pretty much frozen solid on the car and elsewhere.

In the IL, the neighbors ask you to wash their car too. In So Cal they probably call the police for the extreme water wasting you're doing.
Posted by: ClutchDisc

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 12/31/13 06:23 PM

You guys haven't seen anything yet. Just got back from driving about 550 miles in the salt today. Half an inch of salt plastered all over the front of the truck, and the roof, hood, windows, are all covered in salt. frown
Posted by: hattaresguy

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 01/01/14 01:51 PM

Pretty much, unless they are garaged in the winter!

Than when the roads dry the front of the car gets sand blasted on the highway!
Posted by: hattaresguy

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 01/01/14 01:58 PM

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: SevenBizzos
Pushing 50 degrees in the IL today. I washed the Sonata in the driveway. Then some interior cleaning and the garage floor got a washing to rid itself of the piles of salt that fell off the car over the last month. By Monday morning we'll be back below zero.

I try to keep the washing up to 5-6 day schedule, but sometimes it's just too cold to do so.

Most of the time the salt depth > snow depth.

You wash the car when it's only 50 degrees ? That's too cold to do anything outdoor for So Cal people. I only wash my cars when it's in the 70's or warmer, less than 70 then wait for few days.


LOL I only wash in the winter if its warm enough so the water doesn't freeze on contact!
Posted by: hattaresguy

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 01/01/14 02:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
TX DOT has begun to spray the bridges with Magnesium Chloride.

It has some sort of adhesive in it to adhere to the bridges.

I wonder how long until our cars start to resemble New England cars?


Oh yeah pre treat. The OTR trucking industry hates that stuff, turns big rigs to dust in a few years.

Posted by: grampi

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 01/02/14 07:56 AM

Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
I keep my 2008 F-150 Harley Davidson Edition parked during the winter months to avoid it being exposed to salt. With the price of trucks nowadays I don't want to be buying another one anytime soon!


What's different about the HD edition F-150s? Does this mean they leak oil? Lol, just kidding...
Posted by: grampi

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 01/02/14 07:59 AM

I don't know why they can't quit using salt and change to something that isn't corrosive....I know there are other things available that'll work just as well and aren't corrosive....maybe they cost too much? Don't know?
Posted by: supton

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 01/02/14 09:43 AM

Well, first order guess says, if it's not corrosive, it's probably not good at eating down through the ice. Ok, there shouldn't be a correlation between ability to melt ice and the ability to eat metal, but it's not quite surprising that a more aggressive ice-eater is somehow a better metal eater. After all, it's the gov giving the green light to use the stuff...

I'm not really surprised that the gov is ok with ever stronger ice melters. The average consumer has indicated, for decades, that they are ok with buying new vehicles every few years. Today with ever increasing vehicle safety and emissions standards you might even say, all but mandatory continous improvement in the fleet? Today we don't like when weather intrudes, we don't like weather stops business and the making of more dollars. The costs of dumping more and more salt means keeping the economy going. Spending a dollar here means making two over here, that's a net win.

At least until it's time to replace bridges. Not sure that economic cost is being contemplated.
Posted by: Nick R

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 01/02/14 10:21 AM

My focus is worse right now than any of these lol. I hate snow :\
Posted by: Norm Olt

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 01/03/14 10:03 AM

"The AVERAGE consumer has indicated, for decades, that they are ok with buying new vehicles every few years."

That's a lot like saying "the AVERAGE resident (denizen?) of New York City sees no real need to purchase a car (or a garage space or a parking space or get a driver's license, etc.)"

What that has to do with someone who has a 20 mile each way commute and no access to Publicly funded trains, busses, light rail, streetcars, etc. is beyond me.

More like the AVERAGE village idiot (and "it takes a village...")!
Posted by: metalboy

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 01/03/14 11:31 AM

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
I keep my 2008 F-150 Harley Davidson Edition parked during the winter months to avoid it being exposed to salt. With the price of trucks nowadays I don't want to be buying another one anytime soon!


What's different about the HD edition F-150s? Does this mean they leak oil? Lol, just kidding...


Different leather and stuff. Appearance package like the "King Ranch" they sell down here (gag).

2002-2004 HDs were the only way to get the Lightning motor in a crew cab truck.
Posted by: css9450

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 02/11/14 02:24 PM

Looking good here in IL!

Posted by: DBMaster

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 02/11/14 02:49 PM

Maybe we should make our cars out of MEAT. Salt is an excellent preservative of meat. ROFLMAO.
Posted by: Benzadmiral

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 02/11/14 03:14 PM

Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Maybe we should make our cars out of MEAT. Salt is an excellent preservative of meat. ROFLMAO.

Yeah, and we'd have feral cats, wolves, and coyotes following us everywhere!
Posted by: eljefino

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 02/11/14 03:32 PM



Hubs are good for salt build up because the brakes heat up the middle and evaporate off water, leaving salt behind.
Posted by: css9450

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 02/11/14 03:34 PM

^
Mmmm that's good eatin' there!
Posted by: DBMaster

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 02/11/14 05:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Maybe we should make our cars out of MEAT. Salt is an excellent preservative of meat. ROFLMAO.

Yeah, and we'd have feral cats, wolves, and coyotes following us everywhere!


If they followed us too long there would be a lot of roadkill out there. Remember the Oscar Meyer Weinermobile? We could be driving "jerkymobiles."
Posted by: xxch4osxx

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 02/11/14 07:03 PM

Originally Posted By: css9450
Looking good here in IL!

That is what the average vehicle on the road here looks like right now, my pick-up included.
Posted by: SevenBizzos

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 02/11/14 07:59 PM

Originally Posted By: css9450
Looking good here in IL!



That looks familiar. I've been trying to keep up, but the 10 degree washes don't do much. I spent a good 10 minutes trying to blow off the ice that had accumulated underneath last week. The current ice situation in the wheel well is rock hard ice. I'm hoping for above 20 degrees tomorrow so I can attack the glaciers attached to the splash guards.

With all the idling and the 250lbs of ice I'm still probably carrying around, it's no wonder I'm getting 2/3'rds the MPG.
Posted by: Jarlaxle

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 02/13/14 06:00 AM

Originally Posted By: css9450
Looking good here in IL!



My Dakota looks like that. frown
Posted by: grampi

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 02/13/14 03:27 PM

You'd think in this day and age they could develop something that melts snow and ice that doesn't harm vehicles at all and is affordable...
Posted by: Jarlaxle

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 02/13/14 05:43 PM

Only if a politician's brother in law sells it!
Posted by: artificialist

Re: This is why we can't have nice things ... - 02/13/14 09:28 PM

Originally Posted By: grampi
You'd think in this day and age they could develop something that melts snow and ice that doesn't harm vehicles at all and is affordable...

I would imagine that if this was invented, lobbyists from the car business would try to prevent the use of it.