2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles

Posted by: Chris B.

2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/23/14 05:18 PM

Here is the latest on my V6 Accord using Mobil 1 0w20 OEM filters and 5,000 miles on oil. Not a drop of oil has burned in the VCM engine. First number from the left was the factory fill with 8,396 then 5,000 miles on M1 and again 5,000 on M1. 20,000 total miles on engine. Blackstone is the lab:

ALUMINUM 16, 5, 4
CHROMIUM 1, 0, 0
IRON 39, 11, 9
COPPER 160, 28, 22
LEAD 3, 0, 1
TIN 0, 0, 0
MOLYBDENUM 388, 91, 78
NICKEL 1, 0, 0
MANGANESE 9, 1, 1
SILVER 0, 0, 0
TITANIUM 0, 0, 0
POTASSIUM 7, 0, 1
BORON 144, 65, 50
SILICON 94, 14, 11
SODIUM 13, 0, 4
CALCIUM 1741, 1123, 1062
MAGNESIUM 68, 774, 726
PHOSPHORUS 654, 634, 574
ZINC 787, 686, 618
BARIUM 1, 0, 0

SUS Viscosity @ 210 F 47.9, 48.4, 49.2
cSt viscosity @ 100 C 6.64, 6.79, 7.03
Flashpoint 380 F, 395, 375
Fuel <0.5, 0.5, 0.5
Antifreeze 0, 0, 0
Water 0, 0, 0
Insolubles 0.3, 0.3, 0.4
Posted by: Zaedock

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/23/14 05:38 PM

Nice report, but why would you run Mobil 1 to only 5K? Any conventional could do the same thing.
Posted by: Chris B.

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/23/14 05:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Nice report, but why would you run Mobil 1 to only 5K? Any conventional could do the same thing.


The Honda V6 VCM is known to be very hard on oil and following the MM is considered to be bad advice. Plus 5k is a safe OCI for this engine easy to remember and oil is very cheap!
Posted by: dernp

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/23/14 07:04 PM

I agree. Do what makes you sleep at night. Well done.
Posted by: gregk24

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/23/14 07:12 PM

Looking good my friend. Good choice keeping the OCI at 5000 miles.
Posted by: Zaedock

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/23/14 07:29 PM

Running a nice syn like Mobil 1 to 5,000 miles is "A" choice, but not a good choice, IMO. If you're going to test anyway, add TBN to your report and you'll likely see you can go further.
Posted by: 901Memphis

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/24/14 04:54 AM

Where's the copper coming from?
Posted by: gpshumway

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/24/14 10:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Nice report, but why would you run Mobil 1 to only 5K? Any conventional could do the same thing.


Find me a conventional 0w20, That's the weight the OM calls for.

With the potential sludge issues with the VCM V6, I'm inclined to agree with the OP's 5,000 mi OCI choice.

Interesting to see how much M1 0w20 has sheared in your engine. It does about the same in my R18 Civic. The PDS indicates it's an 8.7 cSt oil with a 2.7 HTHS, but the UOAs say otherwise. Looking at the PDSs you'd think there was little reason to choose M1 5w20 over the 0w20, but the 5w20's greater shear stability means that in practice it's actually quite different from the 0w20. PU 5w20 is even more shear stable.

Good thing Hondas don't mind thin oil. Thanks for sharing!
Posted by: Chris B.

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/25/14 02:35 AM

So do you guys think the Pennzoil Ultra 0w20 would be a better choice? I can get it at my local Wal-Mart for the same price as M1 0w20.I'm thinking it would make any difference over the life of the car. What do you think?
Posted by: 901Memphis

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/25/14 03:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris B.
So do you guys think the Pennzoil Ultra 0w20 would be a better choice? I can get it at my local Wal-Mart for the same price as M1 0w20.I'm thinking it would make any difference over the life of the car. What do you think?



Do you mean PU 5w20? PU doesn't come in 0w20, but PP does. I would probably rather have the M1 0w20 over PP 0w20.
Posted by: dnewton3

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/25/14 05:44 AM

I think "better" needs to be defined by you ChrisB. ...

"Better" in a sense that something makes you sleep well at night? Only you can decide that.

"Better" for your engine? Well - that is easy to find. Run several trials (min 3 per choice) with several lubes and see how they stack up against UA macro data; see my "normalcy" article.

"Better" for your wallet? That will be the lube that provides statistically sound wear data, for the least cost.

I cannot tell you where your mind is at for "feeling" your way in this decision; that is completely up to you and an emotional reaction to "wants" (desires). But I can tell you that any syn for 5k miles is a total waste of money, and not providing any significant benefit over a decent conventional lube. Data and facts trump rhetoric and mythology every time.

Posted by: Chris B.

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/25/14 11:36 AM

Oil is cheap so "better" in terms of wear protection. Normally I agree that 5,000 on full Syn is a waste of money but not on the VCM V6. It is well documented that this engine is very hard on oil and it degrades fast.
Posted by: Chris B.

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/25/14 11:37 AM

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Originally Posted By: Chris B.
So do you guys think the Pennzoil Ultra 0w20 would be a better choice? I can get it at my local Wal-Mart for the same price as M1 0w20.I'm thinking it would make any difference over the life of the car. What do you think?



Do you mean PU 5w20? PU doesn't come in 0w20, but PP does. I would probably rather have the M1 0w20 over PP 0w20.


I swear I saw 0w20 PU at my local store. I'll double check next trip back this week.
Posted by: gpshumway

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/26/14 02:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Originally Posted By: Chris B.
So do you guys think the Pennzoil Ultra 0w20 would be a better choice? I can get it at my local Wal-Mart for the same price as M1 0w20.I'm thinking it would make any difference over the life of the car. What do you think?



Do you mean PU 5w20? PU doesn't come in 0w20, but PP does. I would probably rather have the M1 0w20 over PP 0w20.


I swear I saw 0w20 PU at my local store. I'll double check next trip back this week.


It's possible, but I doubt it. Shell is revamping their product line and possibly combining the Platinum and Ultra products into "Ultra Platinum" or some such, so it's theoretically possible that you have a store that put the new product on the shelves before Shell announced it. Again, I highly doubt it.

Platinum 0w20 is about halfway between the other Platinum oils and Ultra though. It's the only Platinum grade with it's own unique PDS and it has an 8.9% NOACK volatility, about halfway between the Platinum 5w20 and Ultra 5w20.

There's nothing on paper that would lead one to believe PP 0w20 is better than M1 0w20, your UOA doesn't show any elevated wear metals or other reason to switch either. The engine will likely outlast the seats and the bodywork on either oil. The only advice I would give you is don't switch frequently between them.
Posted by: dnewton3

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/26/14 06:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Oil is cheap so "better" in terms of wear protection. Normally I agree that 5,000 on full Syn is a waste of money but not on the VCM V6. It is well documented that this engine is very hard on oil and it degrades fast.



Ah, yes, the old "cheap insurance" defense. Well known in the BITOG Court of Lubes ...


Please show me the "well documented" evidence that proves you need syn. So the engine may be "hard" on oil; so what? How does that translate into actual wear and ROI? Show me data that undeniably details how, in 5k miles, there is a statistical difference in wear outside "normal" sigma deviation between your choice of lube and a decent conventional oil.
Posted by: Chris B.

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/27/14 02:51 AM

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Oil is cheap so "better" in terms of wear protection. Normally I agree that 5,000 on full Syn is a waste of money but not on the VCM V6. It is well documented that this engine is very hard on oil and it degrades fast.



Ah, yes, the old "cheap insurance" defense. Well known in the BITOG Court of Lubes ...


Please show me the "well documented" evidence that proves you need syn. So the engine may be "hard" on oil; so what? How does that translate into actual wear and ROI? Show me data that undeniably details how, in 5k miles, there is a statistical difference in wear outside "normal" sigma deviation between your choice of lube and a decent conventional oil.


Spend any time on Honda Forums and the Folks following the MM using conventional oil are having problems. It is all over the place with pictures and UOA's showing trashed oil and engines. The VCM feature is what is being blamed for this. I barley had time to post my UOA so since you're from Missouri you can go search for it yourself. I'll spend a whopping $22 two or three times a year on full syn and keep my $30,000 car well protected.
Posted by: TrevorS

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/27/14 03:28 AM

On the f150online forums, labnerd has been reporting some ecoboost engines are "destroying" oil at 3000 miles. Some are not and some are. Apparently the OLM is not being helpful. Based on the data he is seeing, he recommended 5000 mile oci's and UOAs for everyone to see what their individual engine is doing.

It also appears that Ford requests back some engines that were replaced in warranty claims so that they can dismantle and investigate themselves.

If the Honda design is flawed, some of the owners who follow manufacturer ocis will soon have major warranty work and Honda should sit up and take notice.
Posted by: dnewton3

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/27/14 05:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Oil is cheap so "better" in terms of wear protection. Normally I agree that 5,000 on full Syn is a waste of money but not on the VCM V6. It is well documented that this engine is very hard on oil and it degrades fast.



Ah, yes, the old "cheap insurance" defense. Well known in the BITOG Court of Lubes ...


Please show me the "well documented" evidence that proves you need syn. So the engine may be "hard" on oil; so what? How does that translate into actual wear and ROI? Show me data that undeniably details how, in 5k miles, there is a statistical difference in wear outside "normal" sigma deviation between your choice of lube and a decent conventional oil.


Spend any time on Honda Forums and the Folks following the MM using conventional oil are having problems. It is all over the place with pictures and UOA's showing trashed oil and engines. The VCM feature is what is being blamed for this. I barley had time to post my UOA so since you're from Missouri you can go search for it yourself. I'll spend a whopping $22 two or three times a year on full syn and keep my $30,000 car well protected.



Directing me to other websites, also full of mythology and rhetoric, isnt' exactly the "proof" I was seeking. I still wait for true documented evidence and not scare tatics resounded by other uninformed folks. Maybe it's good enough for you, but I set a higher standard for my level of "proof". I would agree there are things that are "well documented" on those sites. Unfortunately it's not hard data with objective review, but rather subjective conjecture and regurgitation of opinion.

I see nothing in UOA data to indicate your selection of lube did anything outstanding. Macro analysis leads to the conclusion, even for your specific engine family, that syns at 5k miles don't pay for themselves. Read my "normalcy" article. Then show me, with real tangible data including your own UOAs, where your point of ROI is at, please. Can you please tell me the five top markers of wear, what the averages are for those criteria, what sigma deviation is exhibited by those criteria, and what condemation levels you have set for those markers, relative to your specific engine family, and how your specific engine compares/contrasts to those parameters?

Maybe you're right; maybe you "need" syns at 5k miles. But I have yet to see real world proof of such claim. You have done ZERO to prove it, other than make wide-ranging claims and point to other hysterical folks who substantiate your own personal viewpoint.


BTW - What makes you think I'm in MO? I live near Indy ... not that it matters ...
Posted by: demarpaint

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/27/14 05:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris B.

Spend any time on Honda Forums and the Folks following the MM using conventional oil are having problems. It is all over the place with pictures and UOA's showing trashed oil and engines. The VCM feature is what is being blamed for this. I barley had time to post my UOA so since you're from Missouri you can go search for it yourself. I'll spend a whopping $22 two or three times a year on full syn and keep my $30,000 car well protected.


A Ford tech friend of mine was telling me that some of the F-Series trucks are having issues, and he's advising people to ignore the MM and follow a severe service interval. I never had much faith in MM's, and took a lot of flack for saying it here. Now we have Honda having problems with it, Ford having problems with it, and GM had some problems too and had to re-calibrate it. Vehicles are an expensive investment. Imagine the poor guy that puts faith in his F-150 Ecoboost pick up's MM. He does a lot of stop and go driving and finds out just after warranty that his OCI's were too long, no thanks for me. hide

While some of them are OK, blanket statements like MM's are great across the board is just wrong. A few UOA's to confirm its accuracy would be a sound investment, and a visual inspection of the valve train at 25K miles would be a good idea too, if possible and economically feasible. Opinions vary.
Posted by: DuckRyder

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/27/14 07:02 AM

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2675186/1

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2858992/1

What is the usage? Longterm steady state driving is where the VCM comes into play and starts creating problems.

I don't know what if any changes in the MM or VCM programming have been made.

Just out of curiosity what percentage was the MM at 5000 miles.
Posted by: TrevorS

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/27/14 11:02 AM

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder

What is the usage? Longterm steady state driving is where the VCM comes into play and starts creating problems.


That's exactly what I was wondering.

I wonder if the OLM algorithm has been updated for VCM.
Posted by: Chris B.

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/27/14 11:37 AM

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Oil is cheap so "better" in terms of wear protection. Normally I agree that 5,000 on full Syn is a waste of money but not on the VCM V6. It is well documented that this engine is very hard on oil and it degrades fast.



Ah, yes, the old "cheap insurance" defense. Well known in the BITOG Court of Lubes ...


Please show me the "well documented" evidence that proves you need syn. So the engine may be "hard" on oil; so what? How does that translate into actual wear and ROI? Show me data that undeniably details how, in 5k miles, there is a statistical difference in wear outside "normal" sigma deviation between your choice of lube and a decent conventional oil.


Spend any time on Honda Forums and the Folks following the MM using conventional oil are having problems. It is all over the place with pictures and UOA's showing trashed oil and engines. The VCM feature is what is being blamed for this. I barley had time to post my UOA so since you're from Missouri you can go search for it yourself. I'll spend a whopping $22 two or three times a year on full syn and keep my $30,000 car well protected.



Directing me to other websites, also full of mythology and rhetoric, isnt' exactly the "proof" I was seeking. I still wait for true documented evidence and not scare tatics resounded by other uninformed folks. Maybe it's good enough for you, but I set a higher standard for my level of "proof". I would agree there are things that are "well documented" on those sites. Unfortunately it's not hard data with objective review, but rather subjective conjecture and regurgitation of opinion.

I see nothing in UOA data to indicate your selection of lube did anything outstanding. Macro analysis leads to the conclusion, even for your specific engine family, that syns at 5k miles don't pay for themselves. Read my "normalcy" article. Then show me, with real tangible data including your own UOAs, where your point of ROI is at, please. Can you please tell me the five top markers of wear, what the averages are for those criteria, what sigma deviation is exhibited by those criteria, and what condemation levels you have set for those markers, relative to your specific engine family, and how your specific engine compares/contrasts to those parameters?

Maybe you're right; maybe you "need" syns at 5k miles. But I have yet to see real world proof of such claim. You have done ZERO to prove it, other than make wide-ranging claims and point to other hysterical folks who substantiate your own personal viewpoint.


BTW - What makes you think I'm in MO? I live near Indy ... not that it matters ...


See 2 posts below yours quoted above. These folks having VCM problems are all over the forums. They are not making up this stuff for fun. It is a real problem with this engine and dino oil going by the MM.
Posted by: dnewton3

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/27/14 02:13 PM

Anecdotal blathering is not evidence nor data that can be understood statistically.

Show me how you (or any other Honda VCM owner) have determined safely and statistically that 5k miles is the correct mileage limit, and how you attribute that limit directly to the use of synthetic, please. How do you know 5k miles isn't "too far" as well? Or not far enough? Why 5k miles? Are you 100% sure that 5k miles isn't too much? Perhaps you should consider every 3k miles or 3 months; you know, like the good ol' days. You can double-down on the "extra cheap insurance".

Your data suggests nothing substantial came for your effort except gross waste, despite what anyone tells you to comfort your predisposed lube bigotry. I think it's clear what your want, and there's nothing wrong with that, for you. But some of us actually use data and facts to make reasoned, rational decisions. For us, there's more to an OCI then just guessing.

If you're going to dump M1 every 5k miles, then why even bother with the UOAs? If you started to have a problem, would you even know how to distinguish it in the UOA, versus standard deviation shifts? Right now, this is telling you that M1 did nothing special, and yet you continue to ignore the very data you paid for. So why is it you would have any faith in the UOA should it indicate something were wrong? You don't seem to trust it to be right; why trust it if something were askew? The UOA is telling you that you wasted money, but your emotion is telling you otherwise.

Again - what five markers are you looking for, what averages do you believe to be sound, what deviation is typical, and how are you setting condemnation limits? If you are not addressing these, you're just guessing your way through the entire thing. And of these "problems" you're trying to avoid, can you definitively describe the issues, and how they are cause by oil use and selection? Is there a limit where a conventional lube would be OK? What is the upper end to the use of syns? What symptoms manifest that indicate a problem is present?

You run M1 for 5k miles; I presume you have no issues to date so far. But that's just correlation and nothing more. You have not convinced me that your plan is attributable to safe operation. Let's expound on your logic here:
1) you use syn for 5k miles
2) you have no issues so far
3) you presume your engine is safe because of your actions

I can do that too ...
1) we have three outdoor cats at home
2) we have no wild bears roaming in central Indiana
3) I presume the cats are keeping the bears away

Maybe I should get a few more cats, just for cheap insurance ...

Don't confuse correlation with causation, sir. You have not shown me any proof that you have any data to use for rational decisions about your OCI or lube selection.

Whether you like it or not, you're not only wasting money on the lube, but also on the information you paid to ignore. Maybe that is your idea of "cheap insurance", but where I come from, it's called massive waste.

It's clear to me you have no interest in using the products you purchase as anything other than toys. Fine by me. I wish you the best.
Posted by: DragRace

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/27/14 03:06 PM

This*

Classic case of uncalled for bashing.
Posted by: Schmoe

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/27/14 03:59 PM

Wow.
Posted by: Trav

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/27/14 05:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Oil is cheap so "better" in terms of wear protection. Normally I agree that 5,000 on full Syn is a waste of money but not on the VCM V6. It is well documented that this engine is very hard on oil and it degrades fast.



Ah, yes, the old "cheap insurance" defense. Well known in the BITOG Court of Lubes ...


Please show me the "well documented" evidence that proves you need syn. So the engine may be "hard" on oil; so what? How does that translate into actual wear and ROI? Show me data that undeniably details how, in 5k miles, there is a statistical difference in wear outside "normal" sigma deviation between your choice of lube and a decent conventional oil.


Spend any time on Honda Forums and the Folks following the MM using conventional oil are having problems. It is all over the place with pictures and UOA's showing trashed oil and engines. The VCM feature is what is being blamed for this. I barley had time to post my UOA so since you're from Missouri you can go search for it yourself. I'll spend a whopping $22 two or three times a year on full syn and keep my $30,000 car well protected.


I know the 3.5 iVTEC engines pretty well, i may have been one of the first ones to actually have one of these engines apart because of this issue and posted pictures, lots of them right here on BITOG and took some serious flack from the Honda fan club for it too.

I know this particular engine from new and it had verifiable OCI with gp III synthetic and deposited up so badly it stopped running on 3 cylinders.
This engine will not survive on 5K dino oil changes thats not an opinion. I have proven it on a real live engine.

UOA's are just snap shots in time and of little value when it comes to something like this, it will not show up on a UOA. When this issue arises it does it today and with no warning.

I have done more than a dozen of these and 5k on synthetic keeps them alive and clean for the rest of their lives, one i did has gone over 80K since tear down on it which is more than it had originally.
Could it go more or less? I know 7500 isnt doing so well and 5K does keep them clean long term so thats as close to it as i can come to putting a number one it.

2cents
Posted by: Chris B.

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/28/14 04:58 AM

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Anecdotal blathering is not evidence nor data that can be understood statistically.

Show me how you (or any other Honda VCM owner) have determined safely and statistically that 5k miles is the correct mileage limit, and how you attribute that limit directly to the use of synthetic, please. How do you know 5k miles isn't "too far" as well? Or not far enough? Why 5k miles? Are you 100% sure that 5k miles isn't too much? Perhaps you should consider every 3k miles or 3 months; you know, like the good ol' days. You can double-down on the "extra cheap insurance".

Your data suggests nothing substantial came for your effort except gross waste, despite what anyone tells you to comfort your predisposed lube bigotry. I think it's clear what your want, and there's nothing wrong with that, for you. But some of us actually use data and facts to make reasoned, rational decisions. For us, there's more to an OCI then just guessing.

If you're going to dump M1 every 5k miles, then why even bother with the UOAs? If you started to have a problem, would you even know how to distinguish it in the UOA, versus standard deviation shifts? Right now, this is telling you that M1 did nothing special, and yet you continue to ignore the very data you paid for. So why is it you would have any faith in the UOA should it indicate something were wrong? You don't seem to trust it to be right; why trust it if something were askew? The UOA is telling you that you wasted money, but your emotion is telling you otherwise.

Again - what five markers are you looking for, what averages do you believe to be sound, what deviation is typical, and how are you setting condemnation limits? If you are not addressing these, you're just guessing your way through the entire thing. And of these "problems" you're trying to avoid, can you definitively describe the issues, and how they are cause by oil use and selection? Is there a limit where a conventional lube would be OK? What is the upper end to the use of syns? What symptoms manifest that indicate a problem is present?

You run M1 for 5k miles; I presume you have no issues to date so far. But that's just correlation and nothing more. You have not convinced me that your plan is attributable to safe operation. Let's expound on your logic here:
1) you use syn for 5k miles
2) you have no issues so far
3) you presume your engine is safe because of your actions

I can do that too ...
1) we have three outdoor cats at home
2) we have no wild bears roaming in central Indiana
3) I presume the cats are keeping the bears away

Maybe I should get a few more cats, just for cheap insurance ...

Don't confuse correlation with causation, sir. You have not shown me any proof that you have any data to use for rational decisions about your OCI or lube selection.

Whether you like it or not, you're not only wasting money on the lube, but also on the information you paid to ignore. Maybe that is your idea of "cheap insurance", but where I come from, it's called massive waste.

It's clear to me you have no interest in using the products you purchase as anything other than toys. Fine by me. I wish you the best.


5,000 miles on conventional has proven to be a bad match for this engine. As I have said before and have posted, this engine sludges and had early failures using the MM on dino oil. In many cases at 7,500 miles on syn, this engine has problems. At 5,000 miles on syn there has been no reports of problems.
Now none of this was done in a "lab setting" backed by controlled tests that take years and costs millions of dollars to conduct. It was determined by people like me and other forum members real world findings on what is really working in these engines better then what the factory MM recommends.

Tracking wear trends with UOA's can help when you do end up with a problem. I have on a couple different accounts, identified engine problems and fixed them before they became a bigger problem. The UOA's more then paid for themselves in these cases so not really wasting money here. Not many on here are scientists or tribologists and this is just a hobby for most on here so are we all wasting money? There is a lot to be learned from everyone posting their findings and the VCM engines needing short Syn OCI's is one of them. Why don't you PROOVE I'm wrong??? You can't just as I can't answer all you questions so don't even try.

Your cat scenario is your logic not mine and it quite silly. I know for a fact my engine is well protected because the UOA shows low wear and a clean report based on all reports on this engine. All the "proof and data" you want and keep asking for is spread out on the internet. It is not in the form you want. It is in the real world findings of people like Trav and the countless Honda V6 owners who talk and share "data" about what they are finding in every day use.
You are the one who is getting "emotional" Sir. Worrying about "massive waste" and getting all bent out of shape over changing M1 early LOL! I just posted a UOA to share with the forum, I'm done talking to you. You remind me of the type of person who is super book smart but doesn't have enough common sense to figure out how to hold the door open for a pretty girl or how to properly tie their shoes. The rest of us can keep swapping UOA's and figuring out how to keep our engines protected and running better.....

I just got done working a 16 hour day to help pay for all the free loaders in this country so forgive my grammar and punctuation. LOL! Good nite all.
Posted by: fpracha

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/28/14 05:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Trav
I know this particular engine from new and it had verifiable OCI with gp III synthetic and deposited up so badly it stopped running on 3 cylinders.
This engine will not survive on 5K dino oil changes thats not an opinion. I have proven it on a real live engine.

UOA's are just snap shots in time and of little value when it comes to something like this, it will not show up on a UOA. When this issue arises it does it today and with no warning.

I have done more than a dozen of these and 5k on synthetic keeps them alive and clean for the rest of their lives, one i did has gone over 80K since tear down on it which is more than it had originally. 2cents

First, thank you for sharing input from your real experiences smile
Now are you saying the Grp III oils have failed these engines on the 5K oci routine given by the MM?
If yes then what are the Synthetic Oils you will recommend for these Honda engines at the 5K OCI routine ?
Posted by: 901Memphis

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/28/14 05:35 AM

Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: Trav
I know this particular engine from new and it had verifiable OCI with gp III synthetic and deposited up so badly it stopped running on 3 cylinders.
This engine will not survive on 5K dino oil changes thats not an opinion. I have proven it on a real live engine.

UOA's are just snap shots in time and of little value when it comes to something like this, it will not show up on a UOA. When this issue arises it does it today and with no warning.

I have done more than a dozen of these and 5k on synthetic keeps them alive and clean for the rest of their lives, one i did has gone over 80K since tear down on it which is more than it had originally. 2cents

First, thank you for sharing input from your real experiences smile
Now are you saying the Grp III oils have failed these engines on the 5K oci routine given by the MM?
If yes then what are the Synthetic Oils you will recommend for these Honda engines at the 5K OCI routine ?


If it were me i would go with a low deposit oil like Castrol Edge, or a GTL base oil like Pennzoil Ultra, which scores well in the deposit test too.

On page 7 if you havent seen it.

http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g3115.pdf
Posted by: dnewton3

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/28/14 08:20 AM

You guys still don't get it ... Let me simplify it in this manner with these questions:
What does a UOA show you that you can use as a marker to see when the issue in that engine family arises? Do you see a marked increase in wear metals? A huge shift in viscosity? What is it that the UOA gives you as a clue to know the probelm is afoot?

- If your answer is wear metals, then what shift in which elements are you looking for, past the standard deviation? At what point do you see a delineation in performance between conventional and synthetic lubes? Or, are wear metals not an indicator at all? It is not unheard of that wear metals may not indicate the onset of the problem (example to follow later ...)
- If your answer is vis, then what value is the tell-tale sign? Again, what value is the tipping-point? How does that contrast between the two choices (dino and syn) in macro data?
- Your individual UOA may or may not shot the onset of the sludge problem. Even if it does, it's too late by then. You're already into the problem if you count on your unique UOA to alert you. Visual checks (peeking under the valve cover) may do so, but I cannot assure you of that.



This is topically no different than the discussion I had a year ago about the coked-piston issue in Saturn SL2 engines. And believe it or not, there was a marker that could indicate the onset of the problem; it was oil consumption. Not wear, not vis, not insolubles, not FP. It was top-off fluid! And that information came from macro UOA data. While individual UOAs would not show immediate onset, the mass population data allowed clear delineation of the duration of the OCI where the problem began, and grew. DATA has value, even if it's not yours! And the data seemed indiscriminatory as well; age, brand, grade did not matter. And it was the same story there, too; the OP chose to use PU for 5k miles, but had ZERO idea of why he was doing it, other than his presumption of "cleaning" ability of the lube. He had zero data and no basis for any conclusion, until the marker was discovered in the macro data. And, because the data is predicated heavily on dino, he still has nothing but presumptive thought as to how the syn will react in regard to duration of exposure. So little syn data was there that the marker was not present. In short, he guessed that it would be OK, but had no proof that is was safe. If he was wrong, he too would fall victim.


If you all can get past your sensitive emotional reactions and read my INTENT here, you'll understand. There is good value in macro data; you can learn from OTHERS rather than having to experience the issue first-hand.

What I am pointing out is that here in this thread the OP has no idea what the markers are, or what condemnation points would be prudent based upon macro data. This is why I said he's wasting money; he is swaggin' a guess based upon correlation and not causation. He's being influenced by rhetoric rather than adjusting actions based upon facts. He is using the UOA as a toy rather than a tool. My cat analogy has merit; it illustrates the flawed assumption of presence of an attribute, relative to the exclusion of another. He uses syns; he sees no sludge at 5k miles (yet). That is coincidence and nothing more, as far as proof goes. One or two UOAs with syn in his application is meaningless. If he had 30 successive in a row, and evidence that sludge was not present, then I'd agree that micro data proved his point at that duration. But he does not have that; he has ZERO basis for mirco data conclusions. 5k miles is anecdotal at this point; he has no marker to point to (other than coincidence) that his lube and OCI are "right". He has stumbled upon correlation, not discovered causation.

If you said to me ...
"Dave - the marker is wear; there is a 63% elevation of Fe and Pb at 6.2k miles, with a confidence of .94, when using conventional lubes, but the marker can be shifted to 28% using syns" then I'd have to say you have an identifier. Or, if you said "Mr. Newton - the onset of sludge is predicated by a significant shift of oxidation and nitration outside the 3rd sigma, 47% of the time using conventional fluids at 4.9k miles, but syns delay this onset by one whole magnitude of exposure resultant of the same effect", then I'd have to agree you've found it. But nope - you show me nothing so far to convince me you understand what the markers may be, or how to quantify them. Rather, you rely on anecdotal gibberish and hype. You see some folks have success at some exposure, and you presume it to be gospel. Did it ever occur to you that some folks use syns in your application, and still get sludge? And some use dino, and don't get sludge?

If UOA micro data can show the onset of the problem, and you can indentify it, then don't hold back, because you can be the savior for the Honda faithful. If UOA micro data cannot define the onset, then why are you paying for the UOAs? You seem to infer that the UOA data in this thread is evidence of your choice being a good one, but then what is it you point to in assurance of the claim, because statistically the wear is well within normal response? You cannot have it both ways ChrisB. You cannot say the data shows this is a good choice, but then ignore the fact that the data shows no distinction between your syn and a typical dino oil. So, it the UOA data the basis of your markers, or not? Which is it?

It is my assessment that you have nothing to go on but your own supposition, backed up by other folks patting you on the back who also blindly follow the cattle trail.

You all would do well to read the "normalcy" article and internalize it.


Just because you all don't like my frank, stark assessment, does not mean I'm wrong here. Rude? Perhaps. Incorrect? Nope. Perhaps you find me offensive, brash and arrogant; maybe I am those things. But I find it irritating when folks mistakenly and carelessly apply incorrect conclusions. That's not the basis of the website's purpose. BITOG is a great place to share data and experiments, and to challenge others to prove their position. We can learn from each other. It was not created to be a sounding board for hap-hazard opinions and whimsical conclusions, backed up by other self-congratulatory lube bigots.

Contrary to popular opinion, I don't hate synthetics. I actually use them in some of my applications. But I don't profess them to be a one-size-fits-all answer. Nor do I use them blindly, because marketing and buddies tell me to. I do abhor waste and misinformation.

I conclude by offering a sincere public apology for those I hurt emotinally; that is not my purpose or intent. But some of you need some tough love, whether you recognize it or not. No one promised you an easy time of it when you post a UOA; that's not in the site rules. We are expected to treat and respect each other as adults, but that does not infer we have to coddle or agree with each other. If you set out public info, then be prepared to back it up. I am sorry if I offended ChrisB or others, but I am not sorry for speaking the truth about the use and misuse of UOA data, nor the wreckless conclusions thereof made.





Posted by: Schmoe

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/28/14 08:51 AM

Just read that amsoil link...kind of hard to buy into something published by a manufacturer that is also selling its wares. Guess my 06 Accord that I sold at 202K and still on the road (it was time for the dreaded timing belt change AND the AT was starting to show signs of failure again) would not have made it that far with 12K OCI with M1 EP. REALLY surprised to read into the VCM Honda problems. Just about all Honda problems have come to light from other Honda owners and then Honda finally addressed them when it becomes crisis management. But I will say, they will at least address them. Look into Ford's blowing spark plug issue....Ford won't even acknowledge such a problem exist....google Ford blowing spark plugs and just look.
Posted by: OVERKILL

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/28/14 08:54 AM

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
You guys still don't get it ... Let me simplify it in this manner with these questions:
What does a UOA show you that you can use as a marker to see when the issue in that engine family arises? Do you see a marked increase in wear metals? A huge shift in viscosity? What is it that the UOA gives you as a clue to know the probelm is afoot?


I don't think we have any data showing anything about it quite frankly. At least not that has been gleaned from UOA's. Somebody is certainly welcome to prove me wrong though.

Quote:
He is using the UOA as a toy rather than a tool.


As does about 95% of this site wink (and yes, I just made that statistic up)

Quote:
You cannot say the data shows this is a good choice, but then ignore the fact that the data shows no distinction between your syn and a typical dino oil. So, it the UOA data the basis of your markers, or not? Which is it?


I'm getting the impression that the UOA's on this engine leave us with a lot more questions than answers......

Quote:
But I find it irritating when folks mistakenly and carelessly apply incorrect conclusions.


LOL!! Welcome to BITOG, have a seat over there fine sir! grin

Quote:
That's not the basis of the website's purpose.


But that is mostly what goes on.

Quote:
BITOG is a great place to share data and experiments, and to challenge others to prove their position. We can learn from each other. It was not created to be a sounding board for hap-hazard opinions and whimsical conclusions, backed up by other self-congratulatory lube bigots.


I wish you the best of success in your endeavour to purge BITOG of this type of behavior. But a quick glance at many of the recent topics show that this type of thinking is alive and well. Have you visited the additive section lately? Holy cow poo Batman!! crzy

Quote:
but I am not sorry for speaking the truth about the use and misuse of UOA data, nor the wreckless conclusions thereof made.


And so what I am concluding from your rants and the various posturings of those in this thread is that the UOA's on this engine don't tell us about the presence or the lack thereof of the issue that Trav has observed first hand with them. And an even scarier extrapolation from that is that even if the lube appears to be healthy and fit for continued use, it may be allowing the build-up to occur. Of course that is a MAY situation, we have no proof for or against that statement. It seems we really don't have much quite frankly outside from a bunch of anecdotes and Trav's tear-down pictures of M1 0w-40 keeping one clean.

Does this mean that UOA's on this particular engine are essentially useless? shrug
Posted by: OVERKILL

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/28/14 08:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Schmoe
Look into Ford's blowing spark plug issue....Ford won't even acknowledge such a problem exist....google Ford blowing spark plugs and just look.


Ford acknowledged the issue and was fixing it under warranty. They were also blaming it on the plugs being changed incorrectly though, not sure if they still are. They also approved the Lock-n-stitch insert as a repair.

What they didn't do was honour fixes on the issue outside of warranty. But that doesn't mean they didn't acknowledge the presence of the issue.
Posted by: Schmoe

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/28/14 10:16 AM

Fixing it under warranty....pray tell....since when? There are quite a few forum sites that many owners, even with the extended warranty, that Ford said it was a spark plug problem and not a design issue and they denied warranty service. There only recommendation was total head replacements. Ford never acknowledged the helicoil as a fix. Ever. I for one would really like to see that information. A timesert is the only real solution to fixing the blow out, but after the blow out has happened. A lot of these engines were blowing plugs that were factory installed.
Posted by: satinsilver

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/28/14 10:37 AM

This is from a Honda tech on another forum regarding the 8th generation V6's:

Originally Posted By: ;1844129
do not listen to that bonehead regarding oil - you can use conventional oil. the manual does not state synthetic is required and whatever ANYONE else says doesn't matter. Honda will back the manual.

yes, you have a car that *can* be affected by piston ring issues. but these issues may not creep up because your driving style doesn't allow it to, such as short trips, heavy acceleration on a cold engine, driving in a manner that causes vcm to cycle rapidly...

an 8 year warranty on it is pretty generous on Hondas part to be honest. and I can't wait for it to expire because they are paying us [censored] money to replace piston rings on cylinders 1-2-3.


Posted by: OVERKILL

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/28/14 10:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Schmoe
Fixing it under warranty....pray tell....since when?


When they were replacing the heads under warranty........

Quote:
There are quite a few forum sites that many owners, even with the extended warranty, that Ford said it was a spark plug problem and not a design issue and they denied warranty service. There only recommendation was total head replacements.


Yes, that's correct, the warrantied fix was head replacement, they didn't do any "fixes" to the heads at the dealership for a vehicle under warranty other than that. I did hear of cases where Ford denied warranty saying it was somebody changing the plugs and stripping the threads, but for ones with factory plugs, or plugs changed AT the dealer, they were covered and got a new head or heads.

Quote:
Ford never acknowledged the helicoil as a fix. Ever.


Luckily I didn't reference a helicoil then eh wink

Quote:
I for one would really like to see that information. A timesert is the only real solution to fixing the blow out, but after the blow out has happened. A lot of these engines were blowing plugs that were factory installed.


No, the lock-n-stitch insert is the only "real way" to fix the heads, according to Ford at least, who approved the repair. I had #8 done on my truck, at the dealer, with this insert. Heli-coils back-out, some inserts use dissimilar metals that affect the heat transfer function of the plug to the head.

I've also posted this document on here before, so I'm quite surprised you didn't see it.

http://www.locknstitch.com/sparkpluginserts.htm

Quote:

Now approved by Ford Motor Company.
You can read further information on our Ford thread insert products here:
Ford Triton Instructions (350KB)
Ford Technical Service Bulletin (52KB)


Originally Posted By: Ford

ISSUE
Various 1997-2007 vehicles with a 5.4L 2V, or 6.8L 2V engine with stripped or missing spark plug port threads in modular engine aluminum heads. Ford Motor Company now authorizes LOCK-N-STITCH aluminum inserts and tool kit.
Posted by: Schmoe

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/28/14 02:31 PM

Seen nothing on the lock-n-stitch inserts. I know they would not allow helicoils...that's what they called them...in the early 01 and 02. Back then, and plently of other Ford brethren had this same problem early on, they only told the owners full head replacement, about that time, timesert came out. I remember there was a guy on the internet that would set up a date and time that would basically travel all over the US putting these in. He'd fly out to various cities and do a bunch, then fly to another city, etc. etc. That was around mid 2000's or so. There were so many complaints that Uncle Sam got involved and that's about where I dropped off from following. One thing I have summized is a lot of owners claim to hear a ticking sound prior to the plugs blowing out. I've been lucky with my truck, no blown plugs or tell tale ticking...but got to me honest, everytime I crank it up or drive on a long trip, I'm crossing my fingers. You say number 8 blew out....most have been number 4, furtherest back on passenger side and with Expedition, been some information that condensation drips right on top of that plug on that particular model by the way it was designed and that helped the plug start backing out.
Posted by: DuckRyder

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/28/14 03:11 PM

Originally Posted By: satinsilver
This is from a Honda tech on another forum regarding the 8th generation V6's:

Originally Posted By: ;1844129
do not listen to that bonehead regarding oil - you can use conventional oil. the manual does not state synthetic is required and whatever ANYONE else says doesn't matter. Honda will back the manual.

yes, you have a car that *can* be affected by piston ring issues. but these issues may not creep up because your driving style doesn't allow it to, such as short trips, heavy acceleration on a cold engine, driving in a manner that causes vcm to cycle rapidly...

an 8 year warranty on it is pretty generous on Hondas part to be honest. and I can't wait for it to expire because they are paying us [censored] money to replace piston rings on cylinders 1-2-3.




Sounds like he wants customer pay time instead of warranty time...

In fairness it appears his post was in response to a dealer stating that:

Quote:
I have to use synthetic oil so that if a claim should manifest, I would be fully covered......ugh


The car in question is spec'ed for 0w-20. (is there a conventional 0w-20)?

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=141065

So what I would find interesting if we could get past ford spark plugs, heli-coils and such is:

Do we think a UOA is going to ever pick the VCM issue up?
Posted by: satinsilver

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/28/14 03:46 PM

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
The car in question is spec'ed for 0w-20. (is there a conventional 0w-20)?

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=141065


Yes, Honda labeled 0w-20 syn-blend.

http://www.bernardiparts.com/Honda-Motor-Oils__08798-90XX.aspx
Posted by: DuckRyder

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/28/14 04:29 PM

Originally Posted By: satinsilver
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
The car in question is spec'ed for 0w-20. (is there a conventional 0w-20)?

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=141065


Yes, Honda labeled 0w-20 syn-blend.

http://www.bernardiparts.com/Honda-Motor-Oils__08798-90XX.aspx


Yes synthetic and synthetic blend but no conventional that I'm aware of...

Anyway...
Posted by: OVERKILL

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/28/14 04:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Schmoe
Seen nothing on the lock-n-stitch inserts.


Well now you have smile

Quote:
I know they would not allow helicoils...that's what they called them...in the early 01 and 02.


They still say no to helicoils because there's nothing to hold them in. They'll often back out with the plugs, and there isn't much for them to dig into and so they often blow-out too. They aren't a good repair for this issue.

Quote:
Back then, and plently of other Ford brethren had this same problem early on, they only told the owners full head replacement, about that time, timesert came out.


Yup, I remember that too. The timesert and the lock-n-stitch have a few traits in common.

Quote:
I remember there was a guy on the internet that would set up a date and time that would basically travel all over the US putting these in. He'd fly out to various cities and do a bunch, then fly to another city, etc. etc. That was around mid 2000's or so. There were so many complaints that Uncle Sam got involved and that's about where I dropped off from following.


Yeah, I remember seeing posts about that on the fordtrucks forum, LOL smile

Quote:
One thing I have summized is a lot of owners claim to hear a ticking sound prior to the plugs blowing out.


Yes, that's exactly what happens. It sounds like an exhaust leak. I thought it was my cracked manifold. It wasn't.

Quote:
I've been lucky with my truck, no blown plugs or tell tale ticking...but got to me honest, everytime I crank it up or drive on a long trip, I'm crossing my fingers. You say number 8 blew out....most have been number 4, furtherest back on passenger side and with Expedition, been some information that condensation drips right on top of that plug on that particular model by the way it was designed and that helped the plug start backing out.


Sorry, it was #4, I had a Chevy firing order moment there for a second, LOL! last plug on the passenger side underneath the rear heat and A/C lines. It is also the worst plug to change on the engine, which I think may be a contributing factor, as it is very difficult to get the torque wrench or any wrench in there really. And you have a million feet of extensions, LOL! grin
Posted by: demarpaint

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/28/14 06:27 PM

Is there something to look for in a UOA to see when sludge is gradually building up in an engine and there's no coolant leak or fuel dilution tagged in the report?
Posted by: dnewton3

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/29/14 04:50 AM

Maybe; maybe not. Here are some things that would likely be unique:
- engine family
- specific condition of failure (coked rings, sludge in valvetrain, etc)
- specific lube used
- external contributors (driving style, duration of engine run time, etc ...)

You can look at insolubles or ox and nitration (lab dependent) but those are not an assurance. Each lube will have a different starting point for ox and nitration, so you'd have to know the VOA data as well as macro UOA data.

In the examples of the SL2 engines, the coking of the piston rings was localized, and the rest of the engine seemed fine. So the insolubles were not grossly out of range; there was no marker in "sludge" as we could recognize it. There was, as I already mentioned, a marker discovered in the oil consumption in macro UOA data. But there was nothing in micro UOA data to alert of the onset. The value of UOAs here was in other people's UOAs, not the individual UOA of one engine. The mass market response showed CLEAR delineation of oil consumption at certain exposure durations. In the SL2 engine, you'd be better off using conventional lubes and changing oil frequently, because it can be PROVEN where the onset starts (4k miles). Because there was not enough data for synthetic lubes, the OCI duration was a total swag in regard to PU. Why guess at a synthetic OCI when you can know the exact OCI for conventional oil, with proof beyond any shadow of doubt?

Additionally, not only does one need to know WHAT happens, but WHY it happens. Which conditions contribute to the onset of the problem? What conditions don't contribute? So, it seems the 3.5L engine here is prone to sludge? Fine, but when? What sets it up? Does it only happen to vehicles that experience long sustained drives where the heads get too hot? Does it happen only when short-hop driving occurs when oil never gets up to temp, but pools in the wrong place? Etc, etc ... Does this happen to every single 3.5L Honda engine out there? I doubt it! Rather, there are likely some contributing conditions that are unique, and must be paired up with other inputs (lube selection, OCI duration, environmental issues, etc). Under the right conditions, some engines may have a propensity to sludge, but not all.

Further, do we know with certainty that it's never happened in an engine that uses syns? Or, has that data not yet come to light? ANY LUBE can be used too long. So it's not a question of IF it would happen to a syn, but WHEN might it happen to a syn. It's the same question as to when it may happen to a dino lube, but perhaps with a different answer. As of now, I've seen not one person step forward with the "Ah-HA!" indicator proving beyond any doubt that they KNOW how to indentify it. You cannot avoid something you cannot predict, and you cannot predict something you cannot identify. Get it?

In this UOA, I see nothing out of the ordinary. But it's a snapshot and we all recognize that. I have not researched the data for the 3.5L for a marker, but this UOA seems completely in line with UAs. Meaning, the syn did nothing out of the ordinary at 5k miles. While entirely possible that syn is the right choice at 5k miles, there is no data to substantiate it, that I have yet to see. Which is why I have repeatedly asked the OP what markers he has discovered, if any at all, indicating he can correctly identify the onset of the condition he's trying to avoid. And, is that marker identifiable in micro UOA data, or macro UOA data, if at all?

The UOA here shows everything is fine. Or is it? Do we KNOW that the marker exists in the UOA data? If not, then how can one praise a lube and OCI as the correct choice if the indicator isn't even present? And, if the marker does not exist in the UOA micro data, then why pay for the UOA? Until someone discovers a marker that correctly identifies the onset, we can't make accurate, reliable predictions of OCI duration; it's all a swag until then.

Kind of my entire point, which seems to be lost on just about everyone ...
Posted by: Schmoe

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/29/14 09:38 AM

About all of my Honda's called for 0-20....just couldn't do it...used and still use 5W-20...but then again I "normally" don't have to worry about low start up temperatures.
Posted by: rbarrios

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/29/14 03:16 PM

can someone elaborate on what Honda engines/Yrs are having this issue mentioned above.
Also- VCM = ?

Just curious since owners bow to their Hondas and Toyotas.
Posted by: MikeySoft

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/29/14 06:21 PM

Variable Cylinder Management

I believe pre 2013 Accords V6 could run on 6, 4 or 3 cylinders depending on load.
2013 and newer run on 6 or 3 cylinders.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong on the number of cylinders.
Posted by: Autodarken

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/29/14 09:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Nice report, but why would you run Mobil 1 to only 5K? Any conventional could do the same thing.


The Honda V6 VCM is known to be very hard on oil and following the MM is considered to be bad advice. Plus 5k is a safe OCI for this engine easy to remember and oil is very cheap!


Not at all true...but you have to do what you feel good about.
Posted by: DuckRyder

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/30/14 08:58 AM

The engine is hard on oil under certain conditions. Those conditions are well documented up to and including a class action lawsuit.
Posted by: threeputtpar

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/30/14 10:51 AM

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
The engine is hard on oil under certain conditions. Those conditions are well documented up to and including a class action lawsuit.


I added the bold, as this is a very telling non-admission style admission from Honda USA. Yes, the settlement has not been made final yet, but it eventually will and we will all have extended warranties for these oil consumption issues.
Posted by: threeputtpar

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/30/14 11:05 AM

dnewton3 -

I know what point you are trying to make, which I agree with. But you also throw ROI into your argument, and that is where my thoughts deviate from yours.

What type of ROI can a single individual expect in this situation? Let's say that I decide to pony up the cash to do a full blown study on my new Odyssey exploring the maximum OCI for HGMO 0W-20. I'm just ballparking, but could it possibly cost me somewhere in the $5k range if I take it out to 150k miles, which I think is the generally accepted engineered life on a vehicle drivetrain?

Now, let's say that the maximum OCI was determined to be 7.5k miles per my study. That's just over 13 OCs vs 20 if I just arbitraily chose to go with 5k intervals. My local dealer charges $50 for the OC, so the difference would be $350 over the 150k mile study. Even if my study cost me $500, the ROI is still in the negative.

Even if there were only a few forum documented cases of VCM harming an engine at MM intervals, and even if then there was no class action lawsuit, I still see it as at least prudent to protect my $40k van by spending an additional $200 over its life (because I buy oils at reduced prices and do the work myself) to greatly reduce the likelyhood of my particular vehicle experiencing any problems.

It's not always about the science behind the principle, but very often it's the actual cash outlays in real life that determine the pallatable interval. And this is coming from an accountant that's also infatuated with the science behind the testing and sampling process. If money was no object to me, I wouldn't hesitate to be the guinea pig to put this to the test as I would have so much fun doing it.
Posted by: dnewton3

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/30/14 02:09 PM

I don't disagree with all that you have pointed out. ROI has to be of merit in the over all plan. I get that. But just using a product (any product) as a swag is just that and nothing more. How does the OP know, for sure, that 5k miles isn't too far, even for M1? How does anyone protect an investment, if zero markers are defined and met? You either know, or guess; there is no in-between.

What I contend is that data is out there, if you seek it. From what I've seen, macro data is much more useful that micro data in cases like this. One may not need pay for a UOA, but gather data from others and look for markers.

The other thing that often bugs me, and I call out with regularity, is when folks praise something, but cannot offer any clarification as to why they do so, other than to mimic marketing hype and internet mythology.

So the OP likes his M1; fine by me. But don't claim it's doing a great job, when you cannot define what that means relative to the concern you have. If it's sludge you fear, how does this UOA show it's being kept at bay? If M1 is doing such a great job, then show me the marker that convinces one of that fact. Don't brag on a UOA, or a fluid, and then not be able to articulately describe WHY you believe it to be so. Don't claim to use a product to avoid a problem, and then not be able to define how you track the onset and monitor it.

That's all I ask for; if you make a claim (whomever "you" may be in any given thread) be prepared to back it up with facts. Otherwise, just admit it's an opinion only, based upon emotion, and move on.

If someone said to me "Dave - I cannot prove it; I just like it; it makes me happy to satisfy an emotion ...", how can I argue with that?
Posted by: BobThe

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/30/14 03:03 PM

But what I think the purpose of the UOA from the OP was to say nothing more than "Yep, it looked to do the job at the OCI I chose" and nothing more. Meaning that everything looked normal on the report for the OCI. Next time maybe he extends it out a little further and see what it does to the numbers...or keep it the same and see if the numbers stay the same...or never run another report since he see's his metals trending down.
Posted by: Chris B.

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/31/14 02:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Autodarken
Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Nice report, but why would you run Mobil 1 to only 5K? Any conventional could do the same thing.


The Honda V6 VCM is known to be very hard on oil and following the MM is considered to be bad advice. Plus 5k is a safe OCI for this engine easy to remember and oil is very cheap!


Not at all true...but you have to do what you feel good about.


Really? Guess you don't spend much time on here or other car forums. VCM problems and this engine being hard on oil is well documented.
Posted by: Chris B.

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/31/14 03:08 AM

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I don't disagree with all that you have pointed out. ROI has to be of merit in the over all plan. I get that. But just using a product (any product) as a swag is just that and nothing more. How does the OP know, for sure, that 5k miles isn't too far, even for M1? How does anyone protect an investment, if zero markers are defined and met? You either know, or guess; there is no in-between.

What I contend is that data is out there, if you seek it. From what I've seen, macro data is much more useful that micro data in cases like this. One may not need pay for a UOA, but gather data from others and look for markers.

The other thing that often bugs me, and I call out with regularity, is when folks praise something, but cannot offer any clarification as to why they do so, other than to mimic marketing hype and internet mythology.

So the OP likes his M1; fine by me. But don't claim it's doing a great job, when you cannot define what that means relative to the concern you have. If it's sludge you fear, how does this UOA show it's being kept at bay? If M1 is doing such a great job, then show me the marker that convinces one of that fact. Don't brag on a UOA, or a fluid, and then not be able to articulately describe WHY you believe it to be so. Don't claim to use a product to avoid a problem, and then not be able to define how you track the onset and monitor it.

That's all I ask for; if you make a claim (whomever "you" may be in any given thread) be prepared to back it up with facts. Otherwise, just admit it's an opinion only, based upon emotion, and move on.

If someone said to me "Dave - I cannot prove it; I just like it; it makes me happy to satisfy an emotion ...", how can I argue with that?


Like I said before and it is a fact that these engines don't do well on conventional oil going by the MM because it takes 7,000 miles at a minimum for the MM to hit 15%. The oil sludges by then and starts the build up. This is not my opinion and is well documented. My UOA shows steady wear trending down and low insolubles. I have a scope and can see pretty deep through the fill hole and it is spotless in this engine with no sign of sludge or oil problems. So yes, M1 is doing a good job and this is fact not some made up "emotion" to make me feel better.
Now any full syn will work at 5,000 miles. There are reports(lots of them) where folks are having problem even with full syn going by the MM. Not one report that I can find where owners had problems using a 5,000 mile OCI. Some where between 5k and 7k is where this engine starts to have problems based on what owners are reporting.
This is not made up feel good [censored] like you are claiming. It is real world findings and the best evidence we have on what is best for these VCM engines. Sorry this is not in the form you want but is doesn't change the above facts and it is what it is.
Posted by: DragRace

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/31/14 03:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I don't disagree with all that you have pointed out. ROI has to be of merit in the over all plan. I get that. But just using a product (any product) as a swag is just that and nothing more. How does the OP know, for sure, that 5k miles isn't too far, even for M1? How does anyone protect an investment, if zero markers are defined and met? You either know, or guess; there is no in-between.

What I contend is that data is out there, if you seek it. From what I've seen, macro data is much more useful that micro data in cases like this. One may not need pay for a UOA, but gather data from others and look for markers.

The other thing that often bugs me, and I call out with regularity, is when folks praise something, but cannot offer any clarification as to why they do so, other than to mimic marketing hype and internet mythology.

So the OP likes his M1; fine by me. But don't claim it's doing a great job, when you cannot define what that means relative to the concern you have. If it's sludge you fear, how does this UOA show it's being kept at bay? If M1 is doing such a great job, then show me the marker that convinces one of that fact. Don't brag on a UOA, or a fluid, and then not be able to articulately describe WHY you believe it to be so. Don't claim to use a product to avoid a problem, and then not be able to define how you track the onset and monitor it.

That's all I ask for; if you make a claim (whomever "you" may be in any given thread) be prepared to back it up with facts. Otherwise, just admit it's an opinion only, based upon emotion, and move on.

If someone said to me "Dave - I cannot prove it; I just like it; it makes me happy to satisfy an emotion ...", how can I argue with that?


Like I said before and it is a fact that these engines don't do well on conventional oil going by the MM because it takes 7,000 miles at a minimum for the MM to hit 15%. The oil sludges by then and starts the build up. This is not my opinion and is well documented. My UOA shows steady wear trending down and low insolubles. I have a scope and can see pretty deep through the fill hole and it is spotless in this engine with no sign of sludge or oil problems. So yes, M1 is doing a good job and this is fact not some made up "emotion" to make me feel better.
Now any full syn will work at 5,000 miles. There are reports(lots of them) where folks are having problem even with full syn going by the MM. Not one report that I can find where owners had problems using a 5,000 mile OCI. Some where between 5k and 7k is where this engine starts to have problems based on what owners are reporting.
This is not made up feel good [censored] like you are claiming. It is real world findings and the best evidence we have on what is best for these VCM engines. Sorry this is not in the form you want but is doesn't change the above facts and it is what it is.


approved Well said Chris!
Posted by: Trav

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/31/14 06:21 AM

Originally Posted By: MikeySoft
Variable Cylinder Management

I believe pre 2013 Accords V6 could run on 6, 4 or 3 cylinders depending on load.
2013 and newer run on 6 or 3 cylinders.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong on the number of cylinders.


The older 3.5 iVTEC ones ran on 6 or 3 thats what causes the sludge/deposit/varnish issues.
The 08 IIRC and later had ring problems.

This is from an 05 with verified 7500 mi OCI with synthetic.



Front head (looking directly at engine from the front) the one that does all the work when VCM is active.



The rear head with the VCM mechanism, it doesn't get as hot but varnish sticks everything.



The valve that operates the VCM, oil pressure controlled and stuck with varnish.



The oil filter pad which has a direct feed to the VCM



Oil pan
Posted by: Brybo86

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/31/14 07:49 AM

So would Dave rather have you use dino, take it to 10k, get some uoa's to prove the oil is shot,
then have you use m1 to 10k. when it show signs of sludging he will say, well now you know,
because oil that looks like dried tar isn't necessarily bad, what's the standard deviation of xyz wear element? if you dont know the exact numbers for each element.....blah blah blah

I'll admit that "massive waste“ statement had me laughing harder than I have in weeks

What do you say when cleaning out your oil drain pan? oh beep this is massive waste I should get a uoa on this,maybe 50 to establish trends of how much dust gets blown into the pan between oil changes,

serious question though Dave.. if all that matters is wear do you get UOA's on your lawn mower, snowblower, etc,

What if someone puts m1 in their push mower ... without UOA... gasp! massive waste!
I personally put leftovers in my mower of whatever drops are leftover from random oil changes. do I have a uoa? no. this is of course unacceptable to you I'm sure but really with this rambling post I want one honest answer....

Why do you have to be so rude and condescending to Chris for simply posting some background info and UOA info about his car? Judging by your other posts which are typically very similar... You THRIVE on this sort of bull. Making people feel like idiots for doing something that they believe is the best thing for their car...? So when you succeed in shutting everyone up, when will you be able to post your seething massive waste garbage?

Chris thanks for posting this about your car, it was informative for me and I'm sure for many here, obviously Dave knows everything , since that's the case Mb he should just stick to writing articles on normalcy?
Posted by: Schmoe

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/31/14 08:41 AM

Wow....those pictures are horrid.....I got a V6 on the accord...glad it's not VCM...however....probably gearing up to buy another one next year and this subject will surely be on my mind. Will it make me chose something other than a Honda? No, but I'll probably change my 12K OCI and change it out sooner. GREAT INFORMATION...sure looks like in those pictures that the oil got fried.
Posted by: Trav

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/31/14 09:24 AM

Thats the point they stop running on all cylinders. The day before that engine was running fine on all 6, it fell into eco mode and wouldn't come out of it.
My question is how would a UOA indicate this?

This is how it looked after cleaning, it runs great and staying clean on 5K synthetic OCI.









Posted by: dnewton3

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/31/14 12:20 PM

So, ChrisB, you say wear is trending down. Fine. The engine looks good inside. Fine. Are you indicating that these tools (UOAs and physical observations) cannot be applied to conventional lubes?

Further, I must presume by now you have zero idea of what markers may indicate the onset of the issue; you have repeatedly sidestepped any affirmation of such.

Here's where it matters; it's in the ROI math.

If syn can take you to 5k miles, and dino could take you to the same condition at 4k miles, it's simply cheaper to OCI more often with dino than syn. Granted, those are values that are SWAG'd, but that does not seem to bother you anyway.

You have no idea how to quanitify the OCI; you repeatedly insist on some arbitrary value being good for syn, but have no idea whatsoever what value may be good for dino. You say that wear metals and observations are proof that 5k miles is OK for syn; can you not apply that same system to dino and gander at the results?

Naw - you're a dead set syn junkie. I should know; I was one once upon a time, too. But then I learned how to anayze and interpret, and leave hype and rhetoric in the past.

Now, I am NOT saying that syns are a bad choice here. I'm saying you have no idea how to judge the relative performance of one lube to another, and intead apply your logic in a one-sided formula.

Either the UOA can predict the onset, or it cannot. If it can, you should be able to use that tool to find the limit for any type lube. Then, apply cost analysis to see which is cheaper to assure that level of desired protection. If the UOA cannot prove out the onset condition, they you're grasping at theortical straws.

But instead, you insist on a one-way calcuation, where syn is presumed a winner not because you can prove it, but because you want it.

I am not denying that the engine family may have an issue. I'll accept that as a "known". What I don't see any evidence of is that you have any ability to accurately predict an OCI for ANY lube; you've not shown anything but a guess. And you won't even apply that same courtesy of a guess to an alternative.

Your UOA shows that the syn did nothing statistically significant. No matter how much you want it to be otherwise, that's a fact you cannot change. Your use of the UOA is that of a toy, not a tool; not unlike a LARGE contingent of other BITOGers.

Not a problem; I wish you the best. Have a good weekend.

Posted by: Schmoe

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/31/14 12:56 PM

Don't know what the argument is all about, but pictures don't lie. What I don't get, the older pictures, the oil looked fried. But with VCM engaged, wouldn't the engine run cooler? As far as oil test goes, I'd think you'd see an upsurp in fuel dilution. When I do get a new honda with VCM, after reading this, I'd probably stick with a synthetic, but maybe not the M1 EP line, probably the "regular" synthetic stuff and change out at no more than 5K. Good to see Honda has windage trays in their oil sumps.
Posted by: OVERKILL

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/31/14 12:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Schmoe
Don't know what the argument is all about, but pictures don't lie. What I don't get, the older pictures, the oil looked fried. But with VCM engaged, wouldn't the engine run cooler? As far as oil test goes, I'd think you'd see an upsurp in fuel dilution. When I do get a new honda with VCM, after reading this, I'd probably stick with a synthetic, but maybe not the M1 EP line, probably the "regular" synthetic stuff and change out at no more than 5K. Good to see Honda has windage trays in their oil sumps.


No, with one bank doing all the work, that bank apparently gets extremely hot. And it is the rear bank at that, the one with the least airflow over it.
Posted by: SteveSRT8

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/31/14 01:10 PM

Airflow over the engine block means little to the internal temp on most any vehicle. Likely has little to do with this particular engine's issues.

As always, it is worthwhile to note that Honda made a ton of these, and they don't all break down. Any mfgr that has big production numbers will have some rate of failure, it's very tricky to figure out the exact reason involved. Note that GM engineers told me face to face that they had a lot of trouble keeping their AFM engines HOT ENOUGH at highway speeds.

And anything I've had apart in the last ten years has a windage tray in it. You should see the beautiful welded up aluminum pan on the SRT with baffles and trays galore...
Posted by: DuckRyder

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/31/14 01:47 PM



Additionally there were some part number changes for the heads on at least some vehicles I've not investigated what the changes were.

If someone could figure out what the actual UOA indicator is you'd probably be a bona fide Honda V6 hero, I suspect there that at least a consumer UOA isn't going to pick it up (at least not in time).

So that leaves us with other data.

Also unless you value your time at zero you have to "pay" yourself something in an ROI equation.
Posted by: Trav

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/31/14 04:00 PM

AFAIK There are two versions of VCM that Honda use/d on the 3.5 iVTEC the first generation that only shut the rear off and ran on the front only a lot of the time.
On the 08 and later they used the VCM II that did that but also turned on one cyl on the rear bank on and turned one off on the front bank making a staggered V4.

While deposits were a little better controlled the system is more complicated and had the oil consumption issue also.
IMHO there is no such thing as ROI with less expensive oils or longer OCI with these engines. A little neglect and someone is paying the dealer or someone like me to clean it, rebuild it, or replace it if they are unfortunate enough to be out of warranty.

There are short life PCV issues also that were discussed in my old thread.
Even in warranty people like one poster here who i had a lot of email contact with had to go to war with Honda to get a partial warranty fix for this issue and IIRC he had dealer service and OLM OCI.
Posted by: Brybo86

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/31/14 08:47 PM

ok so Dave says that this engine MAY not destroy itself on Dino. basically Chris your decision to use synthetic based on other people's engines failing on Dino is a stupid decision....??

What you should have done is run really short OCI's on $13 a gallon Dino meanwhile getting UOA'$ everytime. extend these UOa'$ until the wear is alarming.

THEN and only then you will actually know how far Dino can go in your engine. not only will this cost significantly more then using synthetic at 5k OCI's, which has been shown to not harm the engine, but it will potentially damage your engine as Trac has said the engine will abruptly go into limp mode not some gradual red flag on a uoa

but hey at least you will have proof that appeases Lord dave

unless Dave is saying you should guinea pig your engine and cross your fingers that honda saves your bacon
Posted by: DragRace

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 01/31/14 09:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Brybo86
ok so Dave says that this engine MAY not destroy itself on Dino. basically Chris your decision to use synthetic based on other people's engines failing on Dino is a stupid decision....??

What you should have done is run really short OCI's on $13 a gallon Dino meanwhile getting UOA'$ everytime. extend these UOa'$ until the wear is alarming.

THEN and only then you will actually know how far Dino can go in your engine. not only will this cost significantly more then using synthetic at 5k OCI's, which has been shown to not harm the engine, but it will potentially damage your engine as Trac has said the engine will abruptly go into limp mode not some gradual red flag on a uoa

but hey at least you will have proof that appeases Lord dave

unless Dave is saying you should guinea pig your engine and cross your fingers that honda saves your bacon


crackmeup
Posted by: fpracha

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/01/14 04:00 AM

Yes thanks is due to Chris for posting and sharing useful information for all.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Thats the point they stop running on all cylinders. The day before that engine was running fine on all 6, it fell into eco mode and wouldn't come out of it.
My question is how would a UOA indicate this?

This is how it looked after cleaning, it runs great and staying clean on 5K synthetic OCI.

Thanks Trav for posting these pictures when "clean".

Originally Posted By: Trav
The older 3.5 iVTEC ones ran on 6 or 3 thats what causes the sludge/deposit/varnish issues.
The 08 IIRC and later had ring problems.

This is from an 05 with verified 7500 mi OCI with synthetic.
...The rear head with the VCM mechanism, it doesn't get as hot but varnish sticks everything.
...The valve that operates the VCM, oil pressure controlled and stuck with varnish.

Looking at these pictures at 7500 mi OCI with synthetic, so if one wants to use a Dino in the V6 VCM engine, is a 3000 mi OCI still going to produce the sludge and varnish problems ?
Then what is the maximum OCI when using a dino in the V6 VCM Hondas ?
Important - do we consider only Grp IV & V synthetics as synthetics for the V6 VCM Hondas, or will Grp III synthetics provide equally clean results during the 5K oci your have managed so far?
Posted by: fpracha

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/01/14 04:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
How does the OP know, for sure, that 5k miles isn't too far, even for M1? How does anyone protect an investment, if zero markers are defined and met? You either know, or guess; there is no in-between.

So the OP likes his M1; fine by me. But don't claim it's doing a great job, when you cannot define what that means relative to the concern you have. If it's sludge you fear, how does this UOA show it's being kept at bay? If M1 is doing such a great job, then show me the marker that convinces one of that fact.

Like I said before and it is a fact that these engines don't do well on conventional oil going by the MM because it takes 7,000 miles at a minimum for the MM to hit 15%. The oil sludges by then and starts the build up. This is not my opinion and is well documented. My UOA shows steady wear trending down and low insolubles. I have a scope and can see pretty deep through the fill hole and it is spotless in this engine with no sign of sludge or oil problems. So yes, M1 is doing a good job and this is fact...

Some where between 5k and 7k is where this engine starts to have problems based on what owners are reporting.

So then the marker for using a synthetic in these V6 VCM honda engines is somewhere between 5000 and 7000 miles?
Or who would want to risk their engine to ascertain exactly when does a Dino "start failing" for this honda ? !!!
Posted by: Trav

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/01/14 08:12 AM

This engine was run on a Grp III from 2005 till it stopped but that was 9 years ago, oils have improved a lot since then.

Mobil 1 0w20, 0w30, 0w40, 5w30 ESP, PU 5w20, PU 5w30 all have done a great job at keeping them clean. One has gone over another 100K since cleaning and it didn't make it much past 80K originally and its staying clean.

I cant say what other brands will do or wont do i haven't tried them but i understand DNewtons point. Under normal circumstances these are a very long life oils and draining them out a 5K would be a real waste but IMHO not on these particular engines and a couple of others.
Just from my own observations that front head runs hot, very hot! Honda changed it in 08 to add another cyl in the mix on the other bank and shut one off so they knew something was afoul IMO.

The other thing is, when the front cylinder begins to cook the tiny PCV gets clogged as does the valve covers internal passages and this just makes things worse.

The non VCM Honda 3.5 is a very good engine, smooth and powerful for a V6 with a nice power curve but these are a nightmare, IMO they ruined this great little engine then charged a premium for it, all for a of a couple of MPG.
What little was saved on fuel was eaten by shorter OCI, a ruined engine or a massive and expensive cleaning job. Thats called negative return on investment!

Valve cover front cylinder.


Location of PCV.


Tiny internally vented PCV valve.
Posted by: demarpaint

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/01/14 10:27 AM

Trav- Can the system that shuts the cylinders down in the older Honda engines be deactivated so it can run on all 6 cylinders all the time? It is pictures like these that keep me scratching my head about OLM's and these systems that deactivate cylinders in an attempt to save gas. I realize they're not all bad, in fact some are quite good. But I bet the owners of these Honda vehicles thought they were problem free when they bought them too. hide What sucks it many of these people found out when it was just a little too late.
Posted by: Trav

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/01/14 11:39 AM

No the VCM cannot be turned off and run normally, you get an oil pressure light and limp home mode albeit on all 6 cyl. People have been trying everything from unplugging sensors and solenoids, etc but to no avail.
Posted by: demarpaint

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/01/14 02:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Trav
No the VCM cannot be turned off and run normally, you get an oil pressure light and limp home mode albeit on all 6 cyl. People have been trying everything from unplugging sensors and solenoids, etc but to no avail.



Thanks- I thought so. Too bad a simple re-flash can't turn it off.
Posted by: fpracha

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/01/14 02:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Trav

I cant say what other brands will do or wont do i haven't tried them but i understand DNewtons point. Under normal circumstances these are a very long life oils and draining them out a 5K would be a real waste but IMHO not on these particular engines and a couple of others.
Just from my own observations that front head runs hot, very hot! Honda changed it in 08 to add another cyl in the mix on the other bank and shut one off so they knew something was afoul IMO.

Oh yes totally agree with Dave on his heated honest argument of 5K oci on a synthetic being a waste.... but when it comes to such troublesome engines, unless/until a mechanical solution is discovered or someone has done a detailed study to exactly calculate the precise maximum miles of "safe oci" for these (and other similarly troubled engine designs), it is safest to go with your current findings Trav.
Posted by: Ramblejam

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/01/14 02:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Trav
No the VCM cannot be turned off and run normally, you get an oil pressure light and limp home mode albeit on all 6 cyl. People have been trying everything from unplugging sensors and solenoids, etc but to no avail.


Have you tried this, Trav?

http://www.odyclub.com/forums/52-2005-20...html#post730631

"1. OK, I looked and found for 2007 Odyssey EXL with VCM, the PN for the OPS is 37260-PZA-003.
It has bolt thread of M10 x 1.25 (see pic below).

2. Go to a hardware store and buy a "dummy" bolt M10 x 1.25 x 10 mm.
Check your OPS to be sure you need a bolt length of 10 mm.

3. Remove the OPS, keep the O-ring (washer).

4. Install the dummy bolt + O-ring (washer) and tighten it to spec.
This effectively seals the OPS hole so oil does not squirt out!

5. Now: re-attach the OPS to the connector (3-prong).
Cap the end with tape/zip tie to avoid dirt from entering the OPS.
By leaving the OPS attached to the wiring, this simulates an "Engine OFF" situation, which still sends some "voltage signal" to the PCM.
This way the PCM thinks:
a. The circuit is OK (i.e. no breach of the circuit)
b. "Sees" this as "not enough engine oil pressure" and
c. Therefore will not activate the VCM.

Hey this mod only costs $1 (the price of the "dummy" bolt)!"
Posted by: Trav

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/01/14 07:02 PM

Yes, years ago and it doesn't work it goes into limp mode. I have been working on something that should disable it completely but its not a priority just something i mess with when i feel like it.
Posted by: JDD

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/01/14 10:13 PM

Mr. Newton is adept in critical thinking and should be acknowledged, if not applauded, for his efforts to point out the lack of it in others. It's hard to argue with any of his points. We should remember that Bitog (and many other sites, for that matter) is intended primarily to be informational and there is a wide variety of people with a similarly wide variety of reasons for participating on this website. My personal opinion is there is very much a lack of critical thinking in general and good for him/her who is able to do it, as it will be of great benefit to them in life. It's not like they teach it much in public schools. That being said, the tone of someone's message matters as well if your intent is to educate. Education is a process and not a one time blunt force trauma to drive home a point. If Mr. Newton would accept more of a 'mentor' posture, his message would likely be received better and his desire to improve the level of discussion on Bitog would be more likely to happen. Are there a lot of people that participate on Bitog that post a lot of meaningless stuff and unsubstantiated postulations? Of course. As is the case pretty much anywhere. There are several good examples of mentors on Bitog. Doug Hillary is one. I know there are several others, but Mr. Hillary is one that immediately jumps to mind because he is consistent in his willingness to share his knowledge and experiences, and his temperament.

Just sayin' --------
Posted by: Sam_Julier

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/02/14 09:31 AM

Originally Posted By: JDD
Mr. Newton is adept in critical thinking and should be acknowledged, if not applauded, for his efforts to point out the lack of it in others. It's hard to argue with any of his points. We should remember that Bitog (and many other sites, for that matter) is intended primarily to be informational and there is a wide variety of people with a similarly wide variety of reasons for participating on this website. My personal opinion is there is very much a lack of critical thinking in general and good for him/her who is able to do it, as it will be of great benefit to them in life. It's not like they teach it much in public schools. That being said, the tone of someone's message matters as well if your intent is to educate. Education is a process and not a one time blunt force trauma to drive home a point. If Mr. Newton would accept more of a 'mentor' posture, his message would likely be received better and his desire to improve the level of discussion on Bitog would be more likely to happen. Are there a lot of people that participate on Bitog that post a lot of meaningless stuff and unsubstantiated postulations? Of course. As is the case pretty much anywhere. There are several good examples of mentors on Bitog. Doug Hillary is one. I know there are several others, but Mr. Hillary is one that immediately jumps to mind because he is consistent in his willingness to share his knowledge and experiences, and his temperament.

Just sayin' --------


Well said. Other mentors are CATERHAM, Tom NJ, Molecule, GARAK to name a few. I've learned a huge amount from Mr. Newton. He's saved me a lot of money going forward for which I'm grateful.
Posted by: fdcg27

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/02/14 10:53 AM

DN sometimes really gets his teeth into a UOA thread and this was one such thread.
The OP's point is that this engine is known through observation and experience to survive just fine on 5K synthetic OCIs.
DN's point was that we haven't identified the markers for the condemnation limits of any oil in use in this engine, so we're really just dealing in supposition.
The M1 might be done at 5K, but it might be useable for much longer than that.
Without an identified marker to use in establishing a condemnation point, we don't know.
I think he also meant to impart that if the engine is fine on 5K drains of M1, then it would also be fine on shorter drains of conventional oil.
Since we don't have any information as to what we should establish as a marker for condemnation, once again, we don't know.
If I were the OP, I'd probably continue with 5K OCIs on synthetic, since this has been shown to work, although with the information we have, we don't know why it works nor what marker in a UOA would indicate that it wasn't working.
Dave does sometimes get a little carried away in these threads, but his message is that we should be making oil use and OCI decisions based upon quanitifiable factors, not assumptions.
The OP rightly responds that this type of data development is well beyond the practical abilities of any individual owner, particularly if he has to bet his engine to get that data.
Posted by: SlipperyPete

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/02/14 12:50 PM

Originally Posted By: JDD
Mr. Newton is adept in critical thinking and should be acknowledged, if not applauded, for his efforts to point out the lack of it in others. It's hard to argue with any of his points.


I think you give him far too much credit. I think of this guy when reading his posts......except without any people skills whatsoever.

Posted by: dnewton3

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/02/14 06:45 PM

- When I post, it often comes off rude; that is unfortunate and a burden I have to shoulder. It often sours the reception of others; I get that. So be it.
- When I post, it is with the knowledge that comes from a HUGE amount of UOA data (much, much more than any BITOG pretender).
- When I post, it is with the experience that comes from years of statistical process quality control engineering.
- When I post, I most always put up my evidence, either directly with my personal work data, or referring to the work of others such as SAE studies, UOA data, etc.
- When I post, I ask for those who disagree with me to PROVE their position with facts and data, rather than rhetoric and mythology. Anecdotal tidbits aren't proof.

And typically I'm met with personal attacks and ... (insert sounds of chirping crickets in lieu of real facts) ...

I once participated in a thread and made a very short observation; I was told that it was wrong and not well thought out. I then replied with a very detailed thorough analysis, and included several links as proof. The response to my elaboration? It was said I type too much .... some folks are just never happy with the response they get.

In this thread, I never said the 5k mile syn OCI was a bad idea. I said that there is zero evidence to PROVE it's the right decision; there is no data I've seen to indicate the OP (or anyone else) has any idea of what marker(s) may show the onset of the issue, and therefore NO ONE has ANY idea past a barn-wide SWAG.

What I have said is that IF (emphasis on IF) the UOA contains any marker, then the syn did nothing to distinguish itself from a dino alternative because this UOA is totally average. If the marker(s) is NOT present, then why brag on the lube and point to the OCI duration as the near-perfect solution?

Where is the value of a UOA here? I've already said it; it's OTHER FOLKS UOA data you should be looking at. Look for a marker, if one even exists. Then use it to predict the safe OCI duration, regardless of the lube base stock chosen.

The bug up my posterior here is that the methodology (or more accurately, the lack thereof) is haphazard. The OP brags on the lube and OCI as a best-fit solution, but cannot articulately describe WHY that syn or that OCI is right other than to point at other folks who happen to not have sludged engines; that is correlation and nothing more. Nor can he provide any statistical data as to how many VCM engines do sludge, under what contributing circumstances, and what delineates the OCI duration relative to base stock (dino versus syn) for the onset of that condition. And then folks run to his rescue with personal attacks on me when I ask for proof on concept.

Any dino lube will likely sludge in this engine if run too long.
Any syn lube will likely sludge in this engine if run too long.
The question I ask is this: is there an identifiable marker, and if so, does it reveal any PROOF as to the duration any particular lube can safely sustain?



I return you to your regularly scheduled rhetoric, hype and personal affronts.

Posted by: fpracha

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/02/14 11:16 PM

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
- When I post, it often comes off rude; that is unfortunate and a burden I have to shoulder. It often sours the reception of others; I get that. So be it.

What I have said is that IF (emphasis on IF) the UOA contains any marker, then the syn did nothing to distinguish itself from a dino alternative because this UOA is totally average. If the marker(s) is NOT present, then why brag on the lube and point to the OCI duration as the near-perfect solution?

Nor can he provide any statistical data as to how many VCM engines do sludge, under what contributing circumstances, and what delineates the OCI duration relative to base stock (dino versus syn) for the onset of that condition.

Any dino lube will likely sludge in this engine if run too long.
Any syn lube will likely sludge in this engine if run too long.
The question I ask is this: is there an identifiable marker, and if so, does it reveal any PROOF as to the duration any particular lube can safely sustain?

Dave you do not need to carry this as a burden. Its simply your natural style and at least you it helps you to articulate your points very well.

So the floor is open for all those who can collaborate useful data to identify:
- what are the identifiable markers for the correct OCIs for dino oil and synthetic in this engine (at which point the dino will sludge and the synthetic will sludge) ?
- is there any typical driving style or other conditions that actually lead to the sludging issue in these VCM honda engines ?
Posted by: TrevorS

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/02/14 11:54 PM

I get where Dave comes from completely. I have a background in numbers and analysis and know the gulf in knowledge and understanding between people who do what Dave does and a lot of others here, including some with high post counts.

(I don't mean to demean anyone, just in the style of Dave, I'm telling it how it is).

The only thing I would say though is that in the absence of data, people need to make decisions still. And I think what happens is that those people, without the background to understand where Dave is coming from, will feel their opinions of deciding to play it safe (in their opinion), are being ignored in the discussion.

One last point for Dave is that if it is your mission to educate, then it would be logical to take some time to figure out how to position what you say to make sure it is received well. The choice to do so or not is similar in mechanism to the choice some make to decide to go with synthetic.

Would like to add though that I am incredibly appreciative of Dave's contributions to this forum.
Posted by: Brybo86

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/04/14 10:32 PM

Ok so the OP made a decision to play it safe based on the unfortunate experience of others. He doesn't have years of research and data analysis to back up his decision.

Dave are you playing the devils advocate? Or just spewing questions that no one with any normal amount of money can answer?

Why is it that can you only criticize? Consider the two responses

1. Your a bum! how can you change oil every 5k? What massive waste! You don't need a syn, just use Dino(I don't know how long but use it anyway) how can you make a decision without first spending thousands of dollars and hours researching? You must be a lowlife dirtbag who can't tie their own shoes if you change m1 every 5k. Only a halfwit would EVER do that!

2. I applaude your effort to maintain your engine whose history is very problematic. That being said I think you will save money by using Dino oil. May I suggest using Dino and getting a UOA every 1k miles starting with a VOA. Run the oil until you see a red flag on the wear and or viscosity, indicating the need to change the oil. Yes this May potentially damage the engine but I believe that the UOA will give us a sign before any damage may occur. This may seem a bit expensive at first but when you realize that you can use Free after rebate Dino oil and filters your savings will begin to add up.

PS if my method causes your engine to fail I'll buy you a new engine and or pay for repairs. Cheers, Dave
Posted by: Brybo86

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/04/14 10:59 PM

Where did he brag and say his method is tried and true, the true holy grail of VCM engine oil and OCI. did he call anyone names for not doing exactly as he has done??? Or was he simply showing what his decision has led to? Mb bragging When he said the engine did not burn a drop of oil? I'd take that as a statement giving useful information that the UOA can't provide.

What if he had done many UOA on the same oil and taken it to say 12k. Maybe the UOA shows nothing alarming and the engine croaks , would you have applauded his resolve to stick it out as a TRUE statistician or would you have told him he's a bum for not changing his oil based on some other research or fact that doesn't exist in anyones mind but your own?

Maybe I'll just call everyone names and criticize everyone's choices regardless of what they are.

To be honest if I was the OP I would either do exactly as he is currently doing or slowly add miles like 500 or so to each OCI and look for any small changes on UOA Even then if the latter would make him lose sleep why risk it. What is the cost of M1 and 5k OCI over 100,000 miles? $30 x 20 OCI for a grand total of $600.

How many professional statisticians and engineers are testing their own engines and pushing their oil to destruction in their new daily driver cars? Or is this expensive research conducted using company funds and not someones livelihood on line.

The really is sad, I'm sorry Chris
Posted by: Trav

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/05/14 06:44 AM

Well said. How much more over the course of say 100K is the Mobil 1 going to cost over dino at 5K OCI?
Not using Wally world price but national chain prices on sale 20 oil changes..
PP or Ultra synthetic and a Bosch filter @ $32 = $640
PYB with filter @ $23 = $460

For a savings of $180 over 100K or $540 over 300K which should be close to end of life.
Now throw a $25 UOA in the mix every 20K = a Total savings of $165 over the 300K or the life of the engine.

While i don't have all these statistics i do have engines that i took apart (over a dozen at last count, including one just 3 weeks ago) That are staying clean on synthetic at a 5K OCI.
One i cleaned at 80K that died on 7500 OCI synthetic and has now over 190K and is still clean.

I don't know about anyone else but for $165 over the life of the car to pretty much guarantee the engine will not sludge is a excellent return on investment.
I do 5K OCI with synthetic on all my engines or once a year on small engines like snowblowers and lawnmowers.
I don't feel the need or financial pinch to squeeze the last drop of life out of cheap engine oil. We are talking pocket change here, not even the price of med coffee once a week.

But for the sake of argument you did go the dino and UOA route and the UOA didn't catch anything unusual and the engine sludged or varnished badly then what?
I don't need the SAE or anyone else to tell me its going to cost more than $165 I guarantee it will.

Hey i am just a mechanic working on engines for 40 years so what do i know other than what my lying eyes and experience tell me but thats not "proof".

Posted by: demarpaint

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/05/14 07:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Trav
Well said. How much more over the course of say 100K is the Mobil 1 going to cost over dino at 5K OCI?
Not using Wally world price but national chain prices on sale 20 oil changes..
PP or Ultra synthetic and a Bosch filter @ $32 = $640
PYB with filter @ $23 = $460

For a savings of $180 over 100K or $540 over 300K which should be close to end of life.
Now throw a $25 UOA in the mix every 20K = a Total savings of $165 over the 300K or the life of the engine.

While i don't have all these statistics i do have engines that i took apart (over a dozen at last count, including one just 3 weeks ago) That are staying clean on synthetic at a 5K OCI.
One i cleaned at 80K that died on 7500 OCI synthetic and has now over 190K and is still clean.

I don't know about anyone else but for $165 over the life of the car to pretty much guarantee the engine will not sludge is a excellent return on investment.
I do 5K OCI with synthetic on all my engines or once a year on small engines like snowblowers and lawnmowers.
I don't feel the need or financial pinch to squeeze the last drop of life out of cheap engine oil. We are talking pocket change here, not even the price of med coffee once a week.

But for the sake of argument you did go the dino and UOA route and the UOA didn't catch anything unusual and the engine sludged or varnished badly then what?
I don't need the SAE or anyone else to tell me its going to cost more than $165 I guarantee it will.

Hey i am just a mechanic working on engines for 40 years so what do i know other than what my lying eyes and experience tell me but thats not "proof".



Well said Paul, however I think the need for a UOA every 10K miles in one of these engines would be a better idea. I think more frequent checks are warranted to see if a problem is arising, or to see if a UOA can give you any indication of this kind of problem at all. IMO pulling the valve cover covering the problem head might be money better spent for this application than a UOA. JMO
Posted by: fpracha

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/05/14 08:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Trav
While i don't have all these statistics i do have engines that i took apart (over a dozen at last count, including one just 3 weeks ago) That are staying clean on synthetic at a 5K OCI.
One i cleaned at 80K that died on 7500 OCI synthetic and has now over 190K and is still clean.

But for the sake of argument you did go the dino and UOA route and the UOA didn't catch anything unusual and the engine sludged or varnished badly then what?

Hey i am just a mechanic working on engines for 40 years so what do i know other than what my lying eyes and experience tell me but thats not "proof".

Thanks!
In your 40-year extensive real world experience, are there any other engines with similar sludging issues ?
If you have taken apart the R18 Honda Civic engines in the past 5-7 years, could you please commend if these engines are prone to sludge or just varnish in case OCI is extended beyond 5K to 8K miles using dino oil and synthetic oil, respectively ?
Posted by: Trav

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/05/14 08:36 AM

Doing a UOA @ $25 every 10K instead of every 20K would add anther $375 making it now $210 more expensive than the cost of running synthetic over the engines 300K life.
Pulling the covers is about $80 in gaskets and 2.3 hours labor. Another loss.

This is basically a very good engine that isn't prone to head gasket failure, cam or crank problems, just this issue on the VCM engines.
IMO there is more than enough real world evidence that they can be kept clean cheaply and with no more effort, i don't understand the argument against it.
Posted by: demarpaint

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/05/14 08:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Trav
Doing a UOA @ $25 every 10K instead of every 20K would add anther $375 making it now $210 more expensive than the cost of running synthetic over the engines 300K life.
Pulling the covers is about $80 in gaskets and 2.3 hours labor. Another loss.

This is basically a very good engine that isn't prone to head gasket failure, cam or crank problems, just this issue on the VCM engines.
IMO there is more than enough real world evidence that they can be kept clean cheaply and with no more effort, i don't understand the argument against it.


No argument from me........I'd use synthetic and dump it every 5K if that's all it takes to protect one from that mess you showed in the pictures.
Posted by: Trav

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/05/14 09:13 AM

Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: Trav
While i don't have all these statistics i do have engines that i took apart (over a dozen at last count, including one just 3 weeks ago) That are staying clean on synthetic at a 5K OCI.
One i cleaned at 80K that died on 7500 OCI synthetic and has now over 190K and is still clean.

But for the sake of argument you did go the dino and UOA route and the UOA didn't catch anything unusual and the engine sludged or varnished badly then what?

Hey i am just a mechanic working on engines for 40 years so what do i know other than what my lying eyes and experience tell me but thats not "proof".

Thanks!
In your 40-year extensive real world experience, are there any other engines with similar sludging issues ?
If you have taken apart the R18 Honda Civic engines in the past 5-7 years, could you please commend if these engines are prone to sludge or just varnish in case OCI is extended beyond 5K to 8K miles using dino oil and synthetic oil, respectively ?


No i haven't worked on newer Honda R18 engines. I don't use dino at all anymore, for the little difference in price (US prices) over the life of the car and the added benefits of synthetic i don't see any reason to.

I take a very old school and non scientific approach. I run 7500 on synthetic and if it still looks nice and shiny under the cover or through the fill hole i run with that OCI.
If it show any discoloration at all i drop it to 5K.
This is easy if you have a new engine to work with. Older engines i start with 5K and see if it begins to clean up, i get it clean than do the 7500 and see if it stays that way.

Some say follow the OLM but in my experience there are good ones and not so good ones.
If see the OLM is mirroring what i am seeing in the engine then i have no problem with them.
My GM is very conservative it comes on between 3 and 4K and if i drive it daily 5K so its not just based on time or miles.

At the price of oil in the US i don't bother trying to squeeze the last 1000 miles out it, its not worth the time and trouble to me.
There are a few known sludge engines out there, almost every manufacturer has had one at one time or another but they are not the norm.
Posted by: tig1

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/05/14 10:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Running a nice syn like Mobil 1 to 5,000 miles is "A" choice, but not a good choice, IMO. If you're going to test anyway, add TBN to your report and you'll likely see you can go further.


I agree that there is no evidence that this oil suffered ill affects from this engine with a 5k OCI. Run it out to the max OLM and see what you have.
Posted by: demarpaint

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/05/14 11:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Running a nice syn like Mobil 1 to 5,000 miles is "A" choice, but not a good choice, IMO. If you're going to test anyway, add TBN to your report and you'll likely see you can go further.


So are you saying a UOA is better than an actual tear down in this instance? Trav posted pics of an actually tear down following the OLM using a Group III synthetic oil. The results were not good. In this situation I'd follow the advise of a pro who did actual tear downs of more than one engine, and ignore the OLM. Opinions vary.
Posted by: Mfrank84

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/05/14 04:16 PM

I'm asking for some leeway up front here for my ignorance. The OLM I'm assuming is the indicator that tells you it's time to change the oil. I don't understand how it works or what it bases its decision on that it is time to change the oil. Can someone help me out here? I drove my Jeep off the lot brand new with 6 miles on it. It currently has 38.2K miles. My OLM has come on twice since I've had it. I know how many times because I had to reset it. Since I don't know when it's going to come on again, I'll swag and say by 40k for discussion purposes. That's an oil change every 13.3K with conventional oil. There's no way I'd wait that long. It has had 8 OCI's to this point, one at 1.5K, one at 5k and every 5K after that religiously. Am I looking at this wrong?
Posted by: rbarrios

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/05/14 04:31 PM

Dont know what kind of engine the Jeep uses.
But I ran Conventional (Valvoline 5W-30) in my 2003 Trailblazer (Inline 6)... for up to 11,500 mile oil change intervals...
at 172,000 the engine is still purring along....

The UOA's are posted on here somewhere.
Posted by: Mfrank84

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/05/14 05:19 PM

Jeep JK's have the 3.8l v6. It was originally installed in the Dodge/Chrysler minivans. It's supposed to be a well-tested, dependable engine and it's been around for quite a while. It's been great so far. I'm still confused as to what criteria the OLM uses to trigger an oil change. It won't know if I'm using the best synthetic oil and filter money can buy or Super Tech conventional with the cheapest oil filter. If this engine was prone to sludge like the OP of this thread, which I believe it's not, owner's of these engines could be in the same boat.
Posted by: Trav

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/06/14 05:47 PM

It probably uses an algorithm that looks a various parameters such as coolant temp, possibly oil temp, ambient temp, average speed, idle time, engine run time, fuel trims and a few other things.
It gathers the information and tries to put a time and number to it. Some work better than others.

I know very little about Chrysler engines, in fact nothing at all outside general repairs, i wouldn't know one if it was sitting in front of me if it had no tags on it.
I good Chrysler forum may be the place to find out more about this engine and what its shortcomings or not are.
Posted by: candoo

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/16/14 06:46 PM

Hi everyone:

I just got o letter in the mail from Honda Canada in regards to a warranty extension on my 2013 Odyssey. It's entitled " Engine Misfire Due To Carbon fouling of Spark Plugs"

The problem, as stated in the letter, reads:

"On certain Honda vehicles equipped with V6 engines with Variable Cylinder Management (VCM-2) , the cycling of the cylinders under certain drive conditions allows for spark plug cooling, which may result in carbon fouling of the spark plugs. . When the fouling becomes severe, the Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) will come on, and one or more Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC P0301, P0302, P0303, or P0304) will be stored in the vehicles Powertrain Control Module."

Does anyone here know if this is the same problem being talked about on this thread, only from different vantage point? Is this problem in the warranty extension letter just an end result of not changing the oil often enough?

Thanks
Posted by: Indydriver

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/22/14 05:53 AM

I have written extensively on this site about this issue. Honda VCM issues have nothing to do with oil other than it's "mysterious" disappearance. My interest stems from my daughter spending her hard earned money for her first car, a 2011 VCM V6 Accord EX-L, a car she truly loves. I have done all the oil changes on her car with a UOA on every change, also posted on this forum.

One of the first clues we got from Honda (other than many, many unhappy owners getting stonewalled by Honda and their dealer network, being told that a quart per 1000 miles was normal consumption) was a publicly announced "improvement" for MY 2011 engines that included new oil control rings and moly-impregnated piston skirts. It was at this time that Honda sent a very strong message to every single dealer that they MUST insist that all new VCMs be driven to 10% on the MM. Of course, what they didn't explain to customers was that this 7-8,000 mile interval on the FF was so the anti-wear molybdenum coatings on the pistons could dissolve and bond to reciprocating parts in hopes of reducing VCMs alarming oil consumption--the real problem. You see, it turns out ECMs controlling our engines are smart enough to enable VCM and make a six cylinder run unnaturally on three or four but, they are not smart enough to alter the laws of physics.

Honda finally acknowledged the problem and helped their poor dealers and customers they'd been lying to and stonewalling by issuing a service bulletin that identified the true source of the design failure: long highway crusing at steady state speeds that allowed extended cylinder shut down, differential cooling and the resulting blow-by shrunken oil control rings and a gradual emptying of the crankcase out the tail pipe.

Finally, after years of denial, lies and coverups (not to mention thousands of Honda loyalists swearing off the brand after being illegally denied warranty service on this design flaw), two individuals filed suit. You can read all the gory details in the documents found on the settlement site below so I'll just summarize here. One plaintiff had a V6 VCM and interestingly, one had a four cylinder--non-VCM, of course. They sued Honda together for excessive OIL CONSUMPTION. In the course of litigation and the wheeling and dealing to move toward a settlement, Honda won some very important (and obviously critical to them) concessions. #1, Honda forced the name of the problem to be changed from "oil consumption" to "engine misfire". You can figure out for yourselves what a monumental victory this was by their attorneys in limiting Honda's liability. #2 The "engine misfire" problem was then further restricted to certain engine codes. This legal victory means that only those customers who have been serviced at Honda dealerships and have saved their paperwork identifying one of the problem codes will be eligible for reimbursement of their repair costs. #3, the four cylinder family (and hence all non-VCM engines) was completely eliminated from the settlement! This eliminated millions of vehicles from potential warranty service or recall. It also means there's at least one other major additional design flaw in non-VCM engines that Honda has successfully covered up.

So the class action settlement that is still pending will reimburse VCM victims for repairs that they paid for at Honda dealer's if they can produce documentation identifying one of the service codes covered and it gives all other VCM owners warranty coverage extended to eight years from date of warranty initiation. The settlement is still pending because the judge mandated a period for public comment. Interestingly, Honda has baked another out into the cake. If 1000 VCM owners opt out of the settlement (a legal form has to be submitted by a certain date), Honda can back out. In other words, if they still have to deal with an avalanche of individual lawsuits, why settle at all?

Back to my daughter's 2011....given all this, I chose to follow and document factory recommendations to a Tee. So, we kept the FF in there until 10% which turned out to be about 6500 miles (my daughter drives 95% city, an important factor in this whole mess). The UOA, while heavily contaminated with break-in metals (starring 250+ of CU) still had acceptable TBN. The elevated moly from the piston skirt coatings was duly noted. I even purchased Honda brand full syn 0W-20 for my replacement oil to ensure Honda had no outs if we develop problems. The second OCI was again performed by me at 10% which again was around 6500 miles. As you would expect, metals were coming down and the TBN remained serviceable. Most importantly, the engine burned zero oil in these first 13,000 miles. During the second fill with Honda Genuine, we have begun to see some oil consumption I deem "normal" at about half a quart over 7000 miles. Interestingly, she used the car more on the highway during this time. I switched oil on the next (and current) fill to some SM TGMO hoping that it's unusually high moly content might give some added protection to this engine. That will be due to come out soon and you can bet I'll be getting that tested too.

So, to the OP, if he stuck with me through this much to long post at 6:00am on a Saturday morning, the issue really isn't oil change interval. I've proven to my satisfaction (and maybe yours) that MY VCM and the way WE use it can easily handle what the MM tells it to do. Given the legal situation, I believe it foolish to do otherwise. But, I've also proven with my own testing that the condition of the full syns Ive used is fine out to about 8,000 miles. The KEY is to check your oil level weekly. The real problems have come to this soccer moms who never open the hood between oil changes, drive 6-7000 miles and have their engines come to a grinding seizure because all the crankcase oil has flown out the tailpipe. And finally, sell this turd of an engine design before your warranty expires. Honda has more than proven to me that I cannot trust them to be honest and therefore I can no longer support their brands.

Good luck.

http://settlement-claims.com/enginemisfire/Notice.html
Posted by: fpracha

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/22/14 06:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Back to my daughter's 2011....given all this, I chose to follow and document factory recommendations to a Tee. So, we kept the FF in there until 10% which turned out to be about 6500 miles (my daughter drives 95% city, an important factor in this whole mess). The UOA, while heavily contaminated with break-in metals (starring 250+ of CU) still had acceptable TBN. The elevated moly from the piston skirt coatings was duly noted. I even purchased Honda brand full syn 0W-20 for my replacement oil to ensure Honda had no outs if we develop problems. The second OCI was again performed by me at 10% which again was around 6500 miles. As you would expect, metals were coming down and the TBN remained serviceable. Most importantly, the engine burned zero oil in these first 13,000 miles. During the second fill with Honda Genuine, we have begun to see some oil consumption I deem "normal" at about half a quart over 7000 miles. Interestingly, she used the car more on the highway during this time. I switched oil on the next (and current) fill to some SM TGMO hoping that it's unusually high moly content might give some added protection to this engine. That will be due to come out soon and you can bet I'll be getting that tested too.

Good morning and Thanks for yet another great writeup here!
So if we summarize the FIX to be able to safely avoid the VCM and non-VCM honda engine troubles being discussed in this post, the fix you have identified is "to use high moly oils and simply top-up the engine oil even if just 50 ml is required, regularly and frequently" and definitely run the FF up to 10% of MM. Is this correct ?
Posted by: Merkava_4

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/22/14 06:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Trav

This is from an 05 with verified 7500 mi OCI with synthetic.




That engine is done. No point in changing the oil anymore in that engine.
Posted by: Indydriver

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/22/14 06:42 AM

More musings on the dreaded cylinder deactivation scheme....

VCM does give Honda an all important edge in the mpg game. They have a 15% advantage (that's a lot folks) in minivans for example. This [censored] "technology" is a response to one stimulus: CAFE standards. It is deplorable that government regulation forces automobile engineers to create designs they would otherwise abhor. It is interesting to me to see which of their competitors have taken the bait.

Toyota hasn't (yet). My wife insists on continuing to drive minivans even though our children are grown. We never considered the otherwise very fine Odyssey because they all come with VCM. We bought a Toyota Sienna despite the mpg disadvantage because we knew it didn't have VCM and in fact has a wonderful drivetrain featuring a normal and powerful six cylinder mated to an equally fine six speed auto trans. Great vehicle, highly recommended. [BTW 10,000 mile factory recommended OCIs on 0W-20 with no OLM!]

I am in the process of buying a new Camaro V8 and guess what? GM has taken the bait implementing their version of cylinder deactivation called AFM. Fortunately, they do NOT deploy it on manual trans LS3s which I prefer anyway. Apparently the new kids in charge of GM don't remember the first dismal failure of cylinder deact in the Cadillac line in the 80's that cost them millions.

History repeating itself. Sad. We will see if GM's computers are any smarter than Honda's. I doubt it.
Posted by: Indydriver

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/22/14 06:53 AM

Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Back to my daughter's 2011....given all this, I chose to follow and document factory recommendations to a Tee. So, we kept the FF in there until 10% which turned out to be about 6500 miles (my daughter drives 95% city, an important factor in this whole mess). The UOA, while heavily contaminated with break-in metals (starring 250+ of CU) still had acceptable TBN. The elevated moly from the piston skirt coatings was duly noted. I even purchased Honda brand full syn 0W-20 for my replacement oil to ensure Honda had no outs if we develop problems. The second OCI was again performed by me at 10% which again was around 6500 miles. As you would expect, metals were coming down and the TBN remained serviceable. Most importantly, the engine burned zero oil in these first 13,000 miles. During the second fill with Honda Genuine, we have begun to see some oil consumption I deem "normal" at about half a quart over 7000 miles. Interestingly, she used the car more on the highway during this time. I switched oil on the next (and current) fill to some SM TGMO hoping that it's unusually high moly content might give some added protection to this engine. That will be due to come out soon and you can bet I'll be getting that tested too.

Good morning and Thanks for yet another great writeup here!
So if we summarize the FIX to be able to safely avoid the VCM and non-VCM honda engine troubles being discussed in this post, the fix you have identified is "to use high moly oils and simply top-up the engine oil even if just 50 ml is required, regularly and frequently" and definitely run the FF up to 10% of MM. Is this correct ?

My advice is:

1. Avoid Honda altogether. In addition to their design flaws, they have proven to many loyal customers that they will stiff any customer to save a buck.
2. If #1 isn't possible, follow Honda's recommendations precisely and document it so that you cannot be denied warranty coverage should you need it. So if Honda says follow the MM, follow the MM and be sure you use the recommended oil type.
3. Above all, check your oil level frequently. After all, running out is much worse than using the wrong weight or conventional instead of syn. As noted by an earlier poster, all 0W-20s are either full or semi-syns.
Posted by: Indydriver

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/22/14 07:13 AM

On the moly issue, I'm not qualified to tell you if it helps or not. I had some high moly oil in my stash and thought it logical to use it given Honda's desire to have it present in their FF. I would not recommend additives as that would violate Honda's recommendations.
Posted by: fpracha

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/22/14 09:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Indydriver
On the moly issue, I'm not qualified to tell you if it helps or not. I had some high moly oil in my stash and thought it logical to use it given Honda's desire to have it present in their FF. I would not recommend additives as that would violate Honda's recommendations.

Thanks again!
Posted by: fonecord2

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 02/24/14 10:56 AM

Would auto rx help this engine?
Posted by: Vikas

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 03/07/14 01:18 PM

At the risk of incurring Trav's warth, I am going to ask explanation of the following statement:-

Quote:
verified 7500 mi OCI with synthetic.


- what verification?
- which synthetic oil

To the best of my knowledge, the vehicle was not driven by Trav himself nor was it serviced every 7500 miles on Mobil-1 by Trav himself. I apologize in advance if that is false. We have the proof of the sludge right here. Where is the proof of the regular 7500 synthetic OCIs? Was it presented?

There no way that an engine would be that sludged with 7500 OCI and would remain that spotless with 5000 OCI. That does not sound reasonable.
Posted by: GarrettRay

Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles - 03/10/14 03:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Anecdotal blathering is not evidence nor data that can be understood statistically.

Show me how you (or any other Honda VCM owner) have determined safely and statistically that 5k miles is the correct mileage limit, and how you attribute that limit directly to the use of synthetic, please. How do you know 5k miles isn't "too far" as well? Or not far enough? Why 5k miles? Are you 100% sure that 5k miles isn't too much? Perhaps you should consider every 3k miles or 3 months; you know, like the good ol' days. You can double-down on the "extra cheap insurance".

Your data suggests nothing substantial came for your effort except gross waste, despite what anyone tells you to comfort your predisposed lube bigotry. I think it's clear what your want, and there's nothing wrong with that, for you. But some of us actually use data and facts to make reasoned, rational decisions. For us, there's more to an OCI then just guessing.

If you're going to dump M1 every 5k miles, then why even bother with the UOAs? If you started to have a problem, would you even know how to distinguish it in the UOA, versus standard deviation shifts? Right now, this is telling you that M1 did nothing special, and yet you continue to ignore the very data you paid for. So why is it you would have any faith in the UOA should it indicate something were wrong? You don't seem to trust it to be right; why trust it if something were askew? The UOA is telling you that you wasted money, but your emotion is telling you otherwise.

Again - what five markers are you looking for, what averages do you believe to be sound, what deviation is typical, and how are you setting condemnation limits? If you are not addressing these, you're just guessing your way through the entire thing. And of these "problems" you're trying to avoid, can you definitively describe the issues, and how they are cause by oil use and selection? Is there a limit where a conventional lube would be OK? What is the upper end to the use of syns? What symptoms manifest that indicate a problem is present?

You run M1 for 5k miles; I presume you have no issues to date so far. But that's just correlation and nothing more. You have not convinced me that your plan is attributable to safe operation. Let's expound on your logic here:
1) you use syn for 5k miles
2) you have no issues so far
3) you presume your engine is safe because of your actions

I can do that too ...
1) we have three outdoor cats at home
2) we have no wild bears roaming in central Indiana
3) I presume the cats are keeping the bears away

Maybe I should get a few more cats, just for cheap insurance ...

Don't confuse correlation with causation, sir. You have not shown me any proof that you have any data to use for rational decisions about your OCI or lube selection.

Whether you like it or not, you're not only wasting money on the lube, but also on the information you paid to ignore. Maybe that is your idea of "cheap insurance", but where I come from, it's called massive waste.

It's clear to me you have no interest in using the products you purchase as anything other than toys. Fine by me. I wish you the best.


5,000 miles on conventional has proven to be a bad match for this engine. As I have said before and have posted, this engine sludges and had early failures using the MM on dino oil. In many cases at 7,500 miles on syn, this engine has problems. At 5,000 miles on syn there has been no reports of problems.
Now none of this was done in a "lab setting" backed by controlled tests that take years and costs millions of dollars to conduct. It was determined by people like me and other forum members real world findings on what is really working in these engines better then what the factory MM recommends.

Tracking wear trends with UOA's can help when you do end up with a problem. I have on a couple different accounts, identified engine problems and fixed them before they became a bigger problem. The UOA's more then paid for themselves in these cases so not really wasting money here. Not many on here are scientists or tribologists and this is just a hobby for most on here so are we all wasting money? There is a lot to be learned from everyone posting their findings and the VCM engines needing short Syn OCI's is one of them. Why don't you PROOVE I'm wrong??? You can't just as I can't answer all you questions so don't even try.

Your cat scenario is your logic not mine and it quite silly. I know for a fact my engine is well protected because the UOA shows low wear and a clean report based on all reports on this engine. All the "proof and data" you want and keep asking for is spread out on the internet. It is not in the form you want. It is in the real world findings of people like Trav and the countless Honda V6 owners who talk and share "data" about what they are finding in every day use.
You are the one who is getting "emotional" Sir. Worrying about "massive waste" and getting all bent out of shape over changing M1 early LOL! I just posted a UOA to share with the forum, I'm done talking to you. You remind me of the type of person who is super book smart but doesn't have enough common sense to figure out how to hold the door open for a pretty girl or how to properly tie their shoes. The rest of us can keep swapping UOA's and figuring out how to keep our engines protected and running better.....

I just got done working a 16 hour day to help pay for all the free loaders in this country so forgive my grammar and punctuation. LOL! Good nite all.


You're wasting your time Chris. I am new here, and have VERY quickly learned that this entire site is a clique full of bullies, like dnewton and a host of others. I think they just like picking on people for the fun of it. I have asked my account to be deleted, and am waiting for confirmation. I really hate people that go to the extreme at finding something to bash others over the head with. ZERO professionalism. It's completely up to the owner to decide how long they leave their oil in, change their wiper blades, buy new tires, etc., etc. You were not in ANY way advocating in your OP when other people should do this. Why others would beat you up over it is nothing short of someone looking for an excuse to bully you around. Good job defending yourself though!