Troubling UOA

Posted by: JMarshall

Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 08:44 PM



Latest UOA for my 2.0 CR Jetta TDI. Thoughts?
Posted by: dparm

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 08:53 PM

There is a lot of wear going on there, and there has been for a while now. I don't think a 10k change interval is appropriate for your driving style or habits -- the oil is falling out of grade and you've got heavy fuel contamination that isn't being burned off. Are you doing a lot of city driving?
Posted by: JMarshall

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 08:58 PM

I would say that my driving is 70% city, if you can call my area city, running Castrol LL03, no fuel additives, and B5 fuel. I am also a fairly heavy footed driver. Also, the high numbers on the last 2 UOAs is cause the car was brand new. They were run on samples at 10K miles and 20K miles
Posted by: ls1mike

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 09:03 PM

What is cheaper? An engine or a couple of extra oil changes a year. I would not go 10K.
Posted by: simple_gifts

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 09:05 PM

I don't know squat, but I'd do what B-S suggests; if a 5K interval produces 1/4 the wear...

I'd try to establish whether the wear is linear, or geometric etc.
Posted by: volk06

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 09:05 PM

Your engine has only had 3 oil changes in 30K. Thats about 3-5 less OCIs than the average person. While your wear is high its due to the long OCIs and the engine breaking in. If you want to see if you can get lower wear, do a few short OCIs and then sample. That oil looks WEAK as well. What oil is specified for this engine? It looks like it needs to move up to M1 0w40 if that is an approved oil. I'm assuming this is a diesel engine?
Posted by: spasm3

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 09:05 PM

Did coolant somehow get in the oil? The K+ is lower but was really high initially.
Posted by: ram_man

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 09:06 PM

3,000 mile oci never hurt anyone.
Posted by: simple_gifts

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 09:12 PM

Quote:

Did coolant somehow get in the oil? The K+ is lower but was really high initially.


Saw that but the glycol test is 0. Wonder if that is a valid test for VW coolant.
Posted by: JMarshall

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 09:13 PM

Originally Posted By: ls1mike
What is cheaper? An engine or a couple of extra oil changes a year. I would not go 10K.


Definitely the oil. If I'm sitting on a ticking time bomb though, I want to trade it in before [censored] hits the fan.

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
I don't know squat, but I'd do what B-S suggests; if a 5K interval produces 1/4 the wear...

I'd try to establish whether the wear is linear, or geometric etc.


Will do a couple shorter OCIs and see what it does.

Originally Posted By: volk06
Your engine has only had 3 oil changes in 30K. Thats about 3-5 less OCIs than the average person. While your wear is high its due to the long OCIs and the engine breaking in. If you want to see if you can get lower wear, do a few short OCIs and then sample. That oil looks WEAK as well. What oil is specified for this engine? It looks like it needs to move up to M1 0w40 if that is an approved oil. I'm assuming this is a diesel engine?


This is a 2011 VW Jetta TDI. I am running both the 10K mile oil changes specified by VW, as well as the Castrol SLX Pro LLO3 full synthetic 5W-30 that is both specified and factory.

Originally Posted By: spasm3
Did coolant somehow get in the oil? The K+ is lower but was really high initially.


I have had no coolant loss or leakage.

Originally Posted By: ram_man
3,000 mile oci never hurt anyone.


Actually, multiple UOAs have found that shorter intervals can actually increase wear in these VW TDIs
Posted by: ls1mike

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 09:20 PM

Don't believe anything VW says, I am not an engineer, but UOA results are tangible...Now having said that I had an 02 TDI, totally different animal, but I did their recommended OCIs and the results were poor. I shortened it up to 4500-5000 miles and wouldn't you know it never had a bad UOA again.
Posted by: gregk24

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 09:23 PM

10K is just too long, go short this time and see where its at.
Posted by: Rand

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 09:27 PM

is the one of the ones that eat the camshafts?
I'd probably trade it asap.

maybe a new VW if you prefer those.
Posted by: Ramblejam

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 09:28 PM

Originally Posted By: ls1mike
Don't believe anything VW says


Bingo -- what's great is seeing guys running non-507.00 products (GASP!!) and returning excellent UOA results.

"After replacing the worn cam at 53k miles, the car (PD DSG Jetta) had TDT for the first interval, and then has had T6 for the rest. No wear on the new cam after 80k miles."

Posted by: demarpaint

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 09:29 PM

10K OCI is too long, forget the owners manual, cut the interval in half and see how thing pan out. Just out of curiosity do you have an OLM? If so how long before it triggers an OCI?
Posted by: Clevy

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 09:39 PM

Try an hdeo. Or M1 0w-40.
Devlac makes a 0w-30 syn hdeo called devlac elite 222. I love the stuff.
Devlac also has a 0w-40 that is very stout too. I believe you need a stronger/thicker oil film since by looking at the report there is enough metal to make a jailhouse shiv
Posted by: dparm

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 10:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Clevy

Devlac makes a 0w-30 syn hdeo called devlac elite 222. I love the stuff.
Devlac also has a 0w-40 that is very stout too. I believe you need a stronger/thicker oil film since by looking at the report there is enough metal to make a jailhouse shiv



We can't get that stuff in the US.
Posted by: 2004tdigls

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 10:08 PM

if your car has the dpf and egr on the car you MUST use a low ash engine oil or the particulate filter will plug in short order

as others have suggested cut your OCI in half to 5000 miles and take a sample.

My dad used to say "oil is cheap, engines are expensive, so change your oil often and never change your engine"

I suggest you try this oil

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_ESP_Formula_M_5W-40.aspx

although it does not meet VW 507, it is a low ash oil
Posted by: ram_man

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 10:10 PM

Originally Posted By: JMarshall
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
What is cheaper? An engine or a couple of extra oil changes a year. I would not go 10K.


Definitely the oil. If I'm sitting on a ticking time bomb though, I want to trade it in before [censored] hits the fan.

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
I don't know squat, but I'd do what B-S suggests; if a 5K interval produces 1/4 the wear...

I'd try to establish whether the wear is linear, or geometric etc.


Will do a couple shorter OCIs and see what it does.

Originally Posted By: volk06
Your engine has only had 3 oil changes in 30K. Thats about 3-5 less OCIs than the average person. While your wear is high its due to the long OCIs and the engine breaking in. If you want to see if you can get lower wear, do a few short OCIs and then sample. That oil looks WEAK as well. What oil is specified for this engine? It looks like it needs to move up to M1 0w40 if that is an approved oil. I'm assuming this is a diesel engine?


This is a 2011 VW Jetta TDI. I am running both the 10K mile oil changes specified by VW, as well as the Castrol SLX Pro LLO3 full synthetic 5W-30 that is both specified and factory.

Originally Posted By: spasm3
Did coolant somehow get in the oil? The K+ is lower but was really high initially.


I have had no coolant loss or leakage.

Originally Posted By: ram_man
3,000 mile oci never hurt anyone.


Actually, multiple UOAs have found that shorter intervals can actually increase wear in these VW TDIs


Funny you mention that when your engine is wearing the way it is. You show me one engine that failed because of 3,000 oil changes and ill back off my point. Just because a bunch of lab coat wearing scientist's say something doesn't mean its true. Ive seen uoa be very inconsistent with what they should be. Also werent scientists the same people who said pluto wasnt a planet and then it was and then it wasnt again? Like I said 3000 oci never hurt anyone.
Posted by: Bandito440

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 10:42 PM

Yikes. That's certainly not our typically boring UOA. I would get a baseline at 3,000 and see what's happening from there. 10,000 is obviously too long for your driving habits by a long shot.

Is this thing under warranty? I'd probably consider Pennzoil Euro 5w-40 or Mobil 1 0w-40, or a synthetic HDEO like Rotella T6 if warranty isn't an issue. I would only be concerned about the DPF if you're burning a considerable amount of oil.
Posted by: Brybo86

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 11:05 PM

I would contact vw and ask to speak with or have an engineer see these results
Posted by: Bandito440

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 11:17 PM

One other note: if there is a severe service schedule in your owners manual, that's definitely where you need to be. 70% aggressive city driving does not a long OCI make.
Posted by: gathermewool

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 11:37 PM

Originally Posted By: ram_man
Originally Posted By: JMarshall
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
What is cheaper? An engine or a couple of extra oil changes a year. I would not go 10K.


Definitely the oil. If I'm sitting on a ticking time bomb though, I want to trade it in before [censored] hits the fan.

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
I don't know squat, but I'd do what B-S suggests; if a 5K interval produces 1/4 the wear...

I'd try to establish whether the wear is linear, or geometric etc.


Will do a couple shorter OCIs and see what it does.

Originally Posted By: volk06
Your engine has only had 3 oil changes in 30K. Thats about 3-5 less OCIs than the average person. While your wear is high its due to the long OCIs and the engine breaking in. If you want to see if you can get lower wear, do a few short OCIs and then sample. That oil looks WEAK as well. What oil is specified for this engine? It looks like it needs to move up to M1 0w40 if that is an approved oil. I'm assuming this is a diesel engine?


This is a 2011 VW Jetta TDI. I am running both the 10K mile oil changes specified by VW, as well as the Castrol SLX Pro LLO3 full synthetic 5W-30 that is both specified and factory.

Originally Posted By: spasm3
Did coolant somehow get in the oil? The K+ is lower but was really high initially.


I have had no coolant loss or leakage.

Originally Posted By: ram_man
3,000 mile oci never hurt anyone.


Actually, multiple UOAs have found that shorter intervals can actually increase wear in these VW TDIs


Funny you mention that when your engine is wearing the way it is. You show me one engine that failed because of 3,000 oil changes and ill back off my point. Just because a bunch of lab coat wearing scientist's say something doesn't mean its true. Ive seen uoa be very inconsistent with what they should be. Also werent scientists the same people who said pluto wasnt a planet and then it was and then it wasnt again? Like I said 3000 oci never hurt anyone.


To be fair, I'd like you to show me one engine that failed because of 5,000 mile oil change intervals; actually, show me one engine that failed because of 7,500 mile oil change intervals. 3,000 mile OCI's in MOST applications is a waste - moving on... Cheers2

IMO, you should change the oil to a stouter, approved oil, run two shorter intervals, and then sample after the third shorter interval. I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that your engine is just fine, and only needs a proper oil at a proper interval.

Also, while you say you drive 70% city, you're also putting a lot of miles on the car - 10k miles in < 6 months doesn't sound like this engine spends too much time at low temps.
Posted by: rhhsiao

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/07/14 11:48 PM

Part of the problem may be a combination of your driving habits and the use of a biodiesel blend. There are definitely lots of instances where the use of biodiesel in the TDI increases the likelihood of fuel dilution of the motor oil. Fuel dilution is also a strong possibility when you're doing a lot of short trips. Do you have access to regular D2? I'd also shorten the OCI like everyone suggests to try to get the metals down/out. Once you isolate the problem you can start to extend the OCI back to the manufacturer interval.
Posted by: ram_man

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/08/14 12:52 AM

Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Originally Posted By: JMarshall
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
What is cheaper? An engine or a couple of extra oil changes a year. I would not go 10K.


Definitely the oil. If I'm sitting on a ticking time bomb though, I want to trade it in before [censored] hits the fan.

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
I don't know squat, but I'd do what B-S suggests; if a 5K interval produces 1/4 the wear...

I'd try to establish whether the wear is linear, or geometric etc.


Will do a couple shorter OCIs and see what it does.

Originally Posted By: volk06
Your engine has only had 3 oil changes in 30K. Thats about 3-5 less OCIs than the average person. While your wear is high its due to the long OCIs and the engine breaking in. If you want to see if you can get lower wear, do a few short OCIs and then sample. That oil looks WEAK as well. What oil is specified for this engine? It looks like it needs to move up to M1 0w40 if that is an approved oil. I'm assuming this is a diesel engine?


This is a 2011 VW Jetta TDI. I am running both the 10K mile oil changes specified by VW, as well as the Castrol SLX Pro LLO3 full synthetic 5W-30 that is both specified and factory.

Originally Posted By: spasm3
Did coolant somehow get in the oil? The K+ is lower but was really high initially.


I have had no coolant loss or leakage.

Originally Posted By: ram_man
3,000 mile oci never hurt anyone.


Actually, multiple UOAs have found that shorter intervals can actually increase wear in these VW TDIs


Funny you mention that when your engine is wearing the way it is. You show me one engine that failed because of 3,000 oil changes and ill back off my point. Just because a bunch of lab coat wearing scientist's say something doesn't mean its true. Ive seen uoa be very inconsistent with what they should be. Also werent scientists the same people who said pluto wasnt a planet and then it was and then it wasnt again? Like I said 3000 oci never hurt anyone.


To be fair, I'd like you to show me one engine that failed because of 5,000 mile oil change intervals; actually, show me one engine that failed because of 7,500 mile oil change intervals. 3,000 mile OCI's in MOST applications is a waste - moving on... Cheers2

IMO, you should change the oil to a stouter, approved oil, run two shorter intervals, and then sample after the third shorter interval. I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that your engine is just fine, and only needs a proper oil at a proper interval.

Also, while you say you drive 70% city, you're also putting a lot of miles on the car - 10k miles in < 6 months doesn't sound like this engine spends too much time at low temps.



well its not all out failure but the saturn s series if not given 3000 mile oci will burn oil. Alot get so bad its like every tank of gas add a quart. And the only fix is a rebuild.
to say 3,000 mile oci increase wear is insane is my point. Is it a waste in most applications ? Yes I think so. However having one uoa after another that is bad. I would go back to 3,000 and see how it looks if its good then let it go a little longer but I would rather run it a little short and waste a little oil versus running to long and decreasing engine longevity.
Posted by: INDYMAC

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/08/14 05:04 AM

I won't comment on a diesel UOA, but did Blackstone switch to GC for fuel dilution determination.

If you value your TDI, then send your reports to Terry Dyson for interpretation and recommendation.
Posted by: DuckRyder

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/08/14 06:44 AM

All of the approved oils for this car are 5/30, Castrol SLX Professional (gold bottle) is the dealer oil. It doesn't have a great reputation in TDi circles.

Mobil 1 has an approved oil (ESP) as does LiqiMoly they are probably the 3 easiest to find.

I'd probably sample at 5000 (not necessarily change) and see how it does.

Also might not be a bad idea to get it on record with VW.
Posted by: JMarshall

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/08/14 07:01 AM

Originally Posted By: rhhsiao
Part of the problem may be a combination of your driving habits and the use of a biodiesel blend. There are definitely lots of instances where the use of biodiesel in the TDI increases the likelihood of fuel dilution of the motor oil. Fuel dilution is also a strong possibility when you're doing a lot of short trips. Do you have access to regular D2? I'd also shorten the OCI like everyone suggests to try to get the metals down/out. Once you isolate the problem you can start to extend the OCI back to the manufacturer interval.


No, all diesel in PA is B5 by mandate
Posted by: rhhsiao

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/08/14 11:12 AM

Originally Posted By: JMarshall
Originally Posted By: rhhsiao
Part of the problem may be a combination of your driving habits and the use of a biodiesel blend. There are definitely lots of instances where the use of biodiesel in the TDI increases the likelihood of fuel dilution of the motor oil. Fuel dilution is also a strong possibility when you're doing a lot of short trips. Do you have access to regular D2? I'd also shorten the OCI like everyone suggests to try to get the metals down/out. Once you isolate the problem you can start to extend the OCI back to the manufacturer interval.


No, all diesel in PA is B5 by mandate


I'd go with a short OCI, probably 5K miles, and do another UOA to see how things are shaping up. The one positive takeaway is that wear metals are trending down save for iron but definitely not fast enough.
Posted by: MolaKule

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/08/14 01:56 PM

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Quote:

Did coolant somehow get in the oil? The K+ is lower but was really high initially.


Saw that but the glycol test is 0. Wonder if that is a valid test for VW coolant.


The big question is, why is the Potassium trending downward?

Did the FF oil contain a lot of Potassium agent?

What does the VOA of this current oil show in terms of Potassium?

Posted by: rhhsiao

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/08/14 02:20 PM

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Quote:

Did coolant somehow get in the oil? The K+ is lower but was really high initially.


Saw that but the glycol test is 0. Wonder if that is a valid test for VW coolant.


The big question is, why is the Potassium trending downward?

Did the FF oil contain a lot of Potassium agent?

What does the VOA of this current oil show in terms of Potassium?



The first few UOAs of the common rail diesels from VW all tend to show high potassium. I believe it's from the EGR system or the use of a welding flux.
Posted by: JMarshall

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/08/14 04:41 PM

What does anyone think of the plan of pulling a sample through the dipstick tube @ 4500 miles and seeing how it looks then?
Posted by: JMarshall

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/08/14 04:44 PM

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
10K OCI is too long, forget the owners manual, cut the interval in half and see how thing pan out. Just out of curiosity do you have an OLM? If so how long before it triggers an OCI?


It doesn't have oil life sensors like say a GM product. It has a service indicator that comes on after a set mileage/time regardless of driving habit/etc
Posted by: gathermewool

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/08/14 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By: JMarshall
What does anyone think of the plan of pulling a sample through the dipstick tube @ 4500 miles and seeing how it looks then?


I'd say just drain it, obtaining a sample midway through. If money is an issue, then do a couple of shorter (5-6k) OCI's without sampling, and then send out a sample of the third drain for analysis. The reason I suggest this, is because residual wear-like metals will still be present from previous intervals, so even if the oil looks fine after this run to 4,500 miles, the "wear" metals may erroneously appear alarmingly high. They should, however, trend downward due to dilution, the end of break-in, and less run time.

Also, remember that most diesel guys that I've talked to (note, I am NOT a diesel guy) don't consider their engines broken in until well after a gasser would be.
Posted by: JMarshall

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/08/14 05:34 PM

Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: JMarshall
What does anyone think of the plan of pulling a sample through the dipstick tube @ 4500 miles and seeing how it looks then?


I'd say just drain it, obtaining a sample midway through. If money is an issue, then do a couple of shorter (5-6k) OCI's without sampling, and then send out a sample of the third drain for analysis. The reason I suggest this, is because residual wear-like metals will still be present from previous intervals, so even if the oil looks fine after this run to 4,500 miles, the "wear" metals may erroneously appear alarmingly high. They should, however, trend downward due to dilution, the end of break-in, and less run time.

Also, remember that most diesel guys that I've talked to (note, I am NOT a diesel guy) don't consider their engines broken in until well after a gasser would be.


These engines normally aren't "broken in" and hit their peak compression numbers until ~60K miles. So you would just change it a couple times without sampling? Money isn't really an issue. My thought was at 4500 miles, if this high number was a fluke from catching oil out of the bottom of the pan, etc, that sampling at 4500 would allow me to still run the oil if it is in good shape, or change it out if need be.
Posted by: rhhsiao

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/08/14 05:57 PM

Originally Posted By: JMarshall
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: JMarshall
What does anyone think of the plan of pulling a sample through the dipstick tube @ 4500 miles and seeing how it looks then?


I'd say just drain it, obtaining a sample midway through. If money is an issue, then do a couple of shorter (5-6k) OCI's without sampling, and then send out a sample of the third drain for analysis. The reason I suggest this, is because residual wear-like metals will still be present from previous intervals, so even if the oil looks fine after this run to 4,500 miles, the "wear" metals may erroneously appear alarmingly high. They should, however, trend downward due to dilution, the end of break-in, and less run time.

Also, remember that most diesel guys that I've talked to (note, I am NOT a diesel guy) don't consider their engines broken in until well after a gasser would be.


These engines normally aren't "broken in" and hit their peak compression numbers until ~60K miles. So you would just change it a couple times without sampling? Money isn't really an issue. My thought was at 4500 miles, if this high number was a fluke from catching oil out of the bottom of the pan, etc, that sampling at 4500 would allow me to still run the oil if it is in good shape, or change it out if need be.


I personally like this idea of sampling mid-run from the dipstick. There definitely could also be the possibility of contamination if you were getting samples from the bottom. I personally have a suspicion the oil itself is fine but a combo of break-in wear, biodiesel, cold weather starts, and hard driving are giving you wear numbers that look bad this early in the life of the engine. But what do I know? It's all really conjecture at this point anyway.
Posted by: gathermewool

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/08/14 06:50 PM

More data is always better, so if you don't mind, we'd all love to see a sample at ~4,500 miles. If the results trend downward, then you can decide what your interval should be, based on how steep the trend is.

I wouldn't assume the numbers from the most recent analysis are bad - trust your indications. That doesn't mean to trust them blindly, which is why your verification sample isn't a bad idea at all. Worst case is, you drain the oil as soon as you receive the analysis results.
Posted by: Radiation_Joe

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/08/14 09:30 PM

10k miles is not an unusual interval for an oil change on the current TDI diesels. There is certainly something else going on here. The VW TDIs don't perform forced regens of the the particulate filters so an excess of fuel in the oil is an indication of a fuel injection problem. I would take the car back to the dealer and ask them to confirm the injectors are performing properly.
What kind of fuel mileage are you getting? A current TDI should be seeing 30+ mpg city and nearly 40 on the highway at the least.
Posted by: JMarshall

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/09/14 06:58 AM

I will pull a sample at 4500 and see what happens.

Originally Posted By: Radiation_Joe
10k miles is not an unusual interval for an oil change on the current TDI diesels. There is certainly something else going on here. The VW TDIs don't perform forced regens of the the particulate filters so an excess of fuel in the oil is an indication of a fuel injection problem. I would take the car back to the dealer and ask them to confirm the injectors are performing properly.
What kind of fuel mileage are you getting? A current TDI should be seeing 30+ mpg city and nearly 40 on the highway at the least.


I am getting the same mileage I always have, 33-35 in the city and 43 on the highway.
Posted by: A_Harman

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/12/14 01:21 AM

Aluminum, Copper, and Potassium have been trending down since new.
Chromium has been steady.
Iron jumped in the last UOA, along with the fuel.
The KV100 is borderline 20-weight.
The flashpoint is 50F lower than the last UOA.
The Castrol SLX 5w30 looks weak in both anti-wear and detergency.

Go to a thicker oil with higher anti-wear and shorten the OCI.
Since your car has a particulate trap, M1 5w40 ESP Formula M on a 5000 mile drain may be good.
Since the fuel dilution just started, I would take the UOA result to the VW dealer, get the issue on the record, and see if there is anything they can do about it.
Posted by: Wilhelm_D

Re: Troubling UOA - 01/12/14 07:29 AM

Originally Posted By: JMarshall
Latest UOA for my 2.0 CR Jetta TDI. Thoughts?


There have been some other UOAs for this same oil:

Jetta TDI 10302 miles

Jetta TDI 10183 miles

Jetta TDI 6934 miles

all of which show some of the same things your TDI is showing.

If it were mine I would try Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 or Amsoil European Car Formula 5W-40 Synthetic Motor Oil with a 6,000 mile interval and see if the numbers improve.