Mobil 5w50 SN VOA

Posted by: Matt_N

Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 10/25/11 07:28 PM

I recently picked up four cases of M1 5w50 for the wholesale distributor near my work (Petroalliance / Cleveland). All four cases were API SN, so I sent in a sample to see what (if anything) changed in this formulation.

Good news -- Not much changed! Below is a link to a VOA I had done with API SM M1 5w50 exactly a year ago: API SM M1 5w50 VOA

Below is the VOA for the new SN 5w50:

AL, CHRM, FE, CU, PB, TIN = ALL 0 PPM. Trace of Potassium, Sodium, Silicon.
MOLY = 91
BORON = 242
CALCIUM = 3127
MAGNESIUM = 24
PHOS = 951
ZINC = 1132

kV @ 100C = 16.43 cSt
Flashpoint = 435F

I had them re-test the kV @ 100C, seemed thinner than M1 spec'd -- they verified the 16.43 cSt measurement.

Continue to use the Mobil 1 5w50 SN with confidence!

Matt
Posted by: HTSS_TR

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 10/25/11 09:32 PM

The add pack seem to be a little better with SN.
Posted by: SIXSPEED

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 10/25/11 10:53 PM

Looks just like the API SM sample I had tested earlier in the year. Did you have it tested for TBN? BTW what were the trace levels for the Potassium, Sodium, and Silicon?

Thanks for sharing the VOA results. I'll continue to use this oil; wish it was available locally.
Posted by: buickmaster

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 10/26/11 07:52 AM

WOOT!!! Thanks Matt for this. I'm now satisfied with running my 50/50 mix of M1 SN 0w40 and 5w50.

I also don't feel too bad now driving to Petroalliance to pick up my case now either. I was feeling a bit crazy, but seeing as you came up from Akron I don't feel too bad. I'm in Shaker.
Posted by: virginoil

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 10/29/11 09:32 AM

kV @ 100C = 16.43c St is less than 16.5 and is this a 5w40 weight ?

Zn is about 140ppm more for the SN version. ie 14% more.
Posted by: SIXSPEED

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 10/29/11 10:03 AM

Originally Posted By: virginoil
kV @ 100C = 16.43c St is less than 16.5 and is this a 5w40 weight ?

Zn is about 140ppm more for the SN version. ie 14% more.
It's > 16.3 cSt, which qualifies for being a 50 grade oil.
Posted by: CATERHAM

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 12/07/13 12:49 PM

A KV100 of 16.43cSt is still a fair bit lower than the published figure of 17.5cSt.
Is not uncommon with heavier oil grades in particular to err on the low side when additizing the required amount of polymer thickener.
The result is an oil that is somewhat lighter, has a lower VI but is a more shear stable oil.
With a given HTHSV of 4.4cP it's really probably closer to 4.2cP which still a whole lot heavier than M1 0W-40.

I'd be interested to see a UOA on this oil to how well it stands up. My guess is pretty well.
Posted by: Matt_N

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 12/30/13 10:51 AM

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

I'd be interested to see a UOA on this oil to how well it stands up. My guess is pretty well.


It has done an outstanding job for my application. I have a 2007 Porsche Cayman S that sees considerable track use in the warmer months, and is stored winters. My UOAs are based on # of track events, not mileage. I change after every two events (4-6 total days of track time, which could be anywhere from 400-700mi of operation under track conditions, plus whatever freeway miles are required to commute to/from the track)

My wear metals are always in the single digits, lowest TBN was 7.7, and kV @ 100C readings have been (most to least recent) = 15.94, 16.09, 14.90, 14.41, 14.43. NOTE -- I had an additional radiator installed two OCIs ago. The purpose of the radiator is to provide additional cooling capacity for the water cooling system, which in turn will help better manage oil temps. Judging from the improvement in kV@100C measurements (from 14.9 to 16+)in the UOAs, it seems like that investment is doing it's job.

I know I could leave the oil in longer, but it's cheap insurance. If you can score this stuff from NAPA during their annual M1 sale, it ends up being really really cheap insurance.
Posted by: Clevy

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 01/01/14 07:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Matt_N
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

I'd be interested to see a UOA on this oil to how well it stands up. My guess is pretty well.


It has done an outstanding job for my application. I have a 2007 Porsche Cayman S that sees considerable track use in the warmer months, and is stored winters. My UOAs are based on # of track events, not mileage. I change after every two events (4-6 total days of track time, which could be anywhere from 400-700mi of operation under track conditions, plus whatever freeway miles are required to commute to/from the track)

My wear metals are always in the single digits, lowest TBN was 7.7, and kV @ 100C readings have been (most to least recent) = 15.94, 16.09, 14.90, 14.41, 14.43. NOTE -- I had an additional radiator installed two OCIs ago. The purpose of the radiator is to provide additional cooling capacity for the water cooling system, which in turn will help better manage oil temps. Judging from the improvement in kV@100C measurements (from 14.9 to 16+)in the UOAs, it seems like that investment is doing it's job.

I know I could leave the oil in longer, but it's cheap insurance. If you ocan score this stuff from NAPA during their annual M1 sale, it ends up being really really cheap insurance.



How exactly is dumping oil that isn't depleted and replacing it with oil that isn't depleted "cheap insurance"

Sounds more like expensive insurance considering if the tbn is at 7 and starts at 9 or 10 you've effectively thrown money out the window.
Cheap insurance,right,because the oil is some kind of risk.
Posted by: CATERHAM

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 01/04/14 07:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Matt_N
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

I'd be interested to see a UOA on this oil to how well it stands up. My guess is pretty well.


It has done an outstanding job for my application. I have a 2007 Porsche Cayman S that sees considerable track use in the warmer months, and is stored winters. My UOAs are based on # of track events, not mileage. I change after every two events (4-6 total days of track time, which could be anywhere from 400-700mi of operation under track conditions, plus whatever freeway miles are required to commute to/from the track)

My wear metals are always in the single digits, lowest TBN was 7.7, and kV @ 100C readings have been (most to least recent) = 15.94, 16.09, 14.90, 14.41, 14.43. NOTE -- I had an additional radiator installed two OCIs ago. The purpose of the radiator is to provide additional cooling capacity for the water cooling system, which in turn will help better manage oil temps. Judging from the improvement in kV@100C measurements (from 14.9 to 16+)in the UOAs, it seems like that investment is doing it's job.

I know I could leave the oil in longer, but it's cheap insurance. If you can score this stuff from NAPA during their annual M1 sale, it ends up being really really cheap insurance.

Have you installed an oil pressure gauge in your Cayman?
The KV100 values in a UOA won't tell you if you actually need to run anything heavier the the spec' M1 0W-40. For M1 0W-50 to possibly be considered worthwhile you're going to have to routinely get your oil temp's over 120C.
What are your maximum oil temp's and minimum OP values at 5,000 rpm?.
Posted by: A_Harman

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 01/05/14 03:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Matt_N

Below is the VOA for the new SN 5w50:

MOLY = 91
BORON = 242
CALCIUM = 3127
MAGNESIUM = 24
PHOS = 951
ZINC = 1132



From a recent VOA for M1 0w40:
Mo = 74
B = 221
Ca = 3003
Mg = 19
P = 893
Zn = 1023

Could it be that M1 5w50 is just a thicker version of M1 0w40?
Posted by: dailydriver

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 01/05/14 08:58 PM

Does this product have Ford's actual approval yet for the Coyote (boosted or otherwise) specs which call for a 5W-50??

IT SHOULD!! wink
Posted by: CATERHAM

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 01/06/14 02:28 PM

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Matt_N

Below is the VOA for the new SN 5w50:

MOLY = 91
BORON = 242
CALCIUM = 3127
MAGNESIUM = 24
PHOS = 951
ZINC = 1132



From a recent VOA for M1 0w40:
Mo = 74
B = 221
Ca = 3003
Mg = 19
P = 893
Zn = 1023

Could it be that M1 5w50 is just a thicker version of M1 0w40?

As far as the add' pac' is concerned I'd say yes.
Since M1 5W-50 is the only 50 grade oil on the Porsche A40 list it would be an ideal choice to thicken up M1 0W-40 if required (based on OP/OT). I can't see the need in most applications to running the pretty heavy M1 5W-50 straight with it's HTHSV of 4.4cP.
Posted by: zoli

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 01/27/14 12:50 PM

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Matt_N

Below is the VOA for the new SN 5w50:

MOLY = 91
BORON = 242
CALCIUM = 3127
MAGNESIUM = 24
PHOS = 951
ZINC = 1132



From a recent VOA for M1 0w40:
Mo = 74
B = 221
Ca = 3003
Mg = 19
P = 893
Zn = 1023

Could it be that M1 5w50 is just a thicker version of M1 0w40?

This is the BEST info I have ever seen on my screen!!! Thx a lot for these!
I like a lot M1 5w50 in my flat tappet MY98 SAAB 9-5, but I have never compared it against the 0w40 has SAAB approval - and makes me valve noise at idling by fully warmed up engine. smile
Posted by: LoneRanger

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 02/05/14 09:31 AM

Nice but how might it hold up in a shared sump motorcycle with wet clutch? There's your test for sheer stability! wink
Posted by: CATERHAM

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 02/06/14 12:28 AM

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Nice but how might it hold up in a shared sump motorcycle with wet clutch? There's your test for sheer stability! wink

Probably not that great since it's made with lighter base stocks than a 10W-40 4T oil. But there is only one way to find out, try it and report back.
Posted by: Shannow

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 02/06/14 03:03 AM

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Nice but how might it hold up in a shared sump motorcycle with wet clutch? There's your test for sheer stability! wink

Probably not that great since it's made with lighter base stocks than a 10W-40 4T oil. But there is only one way to find out, try it and report back.



Interested in how you can work that one out CATERHAM...got a hints for dummies on how to work out which base-stock is lighter ?

I look at the PDS for either and get a different answer re basestock weight.
Posted by: CATERHAM

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 02/13/14 06:08 PM

5W oils use lighter base stocks than 10W oils, plus the the 5W-50 has a 180 VI, a further indication that relatively light base stocks are used. Are you going to argue with that?
Posted by: Shannow

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 02/15/14 06:25 PM

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
5W oils use lighter base stocks than 10W oils, plus the the 5W-50 has a 180 VI, a further indication that relatively light base stocks are used. Are you going to argue with that?


Yes, I am going to argue with that.

firstly, 5W requiring lighter basestocks than 10W is a myth perpetuated even on the 101 on the front page... You don't "start with a 5W, and make it act like a 40/50 at the top end.

VII work both ends of the spectrum, improving the cold perforamnce, AS WELL AS the top end.

Don't believe me, then believe AFTON...

http://www.aftonchemical.com/ProductDataSheets/Lubricant%20Components/HiTEC-5710_PDS.pdf

Check out the treat rates of the 150N oil.

At a treat rate of 10%, in what's basically an ISO32 mineral oil, the characteristics are in the ballpark of the M1 5W-50 (very close, with a mineral, VI 100 basestock).

Note how the pour point has dropped from -15 to -42 in that example.

Note, this was a mineral "5W-50", with an ISO32 basestock.

Another manufacturer of VIIs (these are solid, not pre-diluted)
http://www.functionalproducts.com/Catalogs/Solid_VII_Products.pdf

Lists the starting oil for their 10W-40 recipe (page 4) as also an ISO 32...

So it's entirely possible that a 10W-40 and a 5W-50 could have identical basestocks...your assertion that the 40 has to have heavier basestocks because it's a 10W is not true.

As to why I called you out in the first place, looking at the PDS' for either oil
http://www.mobil.com/Australia-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_Racing_4T.aspx
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_5W-50.aspx

shows the 10W-40 has a flash point of 212C, while the 5W-50 has 231C...logically, the 5W-50 is made of "heavier" stuff than the 10W-40, most likely base-stocks, as the VII additives tend to be somewhat lower in FP.
Posted by: JHZR2

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 02/15/14 10:04 PM

Didn't realize this was a product available in NA!
Posted by: CATERHAM

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 02/16/14 05:52 PM

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Didn't realize this was a product available in NA!

Yes it's made and bottled in US quarts in the States but distribution is limited.
Posted by: dailydriver

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 02/17/14 05:14 PM

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Didn't realize this was a product available in NA!

Yes it's made and bottled in US quarts in the States but distribution is limited.


Some NAPAs and select speed shops carry it.
Posted by: Clevy

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 02/17/14 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Didn't realize this was a product available in NA!

Yes it's made and bottled in US quarts in the States but distribution is limited.


Some NAPAs and select speed shops carry it.



I got like 10 quarts in my yard sale oil score a few years ago. I tried it in my Harley. Didn't like it.
In hindsight I should have saved it.
Posted by: Wilhelm_D

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 02/18/14 05:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Clevy
How exactly is dumping oil that isn't depleted and replacing it with oil that isn't depleted "cheap insurance"

Price oil. Price an engine. Voila!
Posted by: Clevy

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 02/18/14 06:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: Clevy
How exactly is dumping oil that isn't depleted and replacing it with oil that isn't depleted "cheap insurance"

Price oil. Price an engine. Voila!




That makes no sense.
How does draining oil that is still serviceable,and replacing it with oil that is serviceable cheap insurance. If the oil isn't depleted then its performing the same as new oil.
Actually since engine oil requires some oxidation to perform as intended the old oil is providing better protection.

Wanna try that voila again?
Posted by: Garak

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 02/18/14 07:05 PM

Looking at the math, what I saved on oil and filters in the taxis by doubling the OCI and sticking to conventional was significant. Going to manufacturers recommended OCIs and synthetics for "cheap insurance" would have bought each taxi a brand new crate engine at the end of their service life, which wasn't needed anyhow since the engines ran fine while everything else was falling apart.
Posted by: Shannow

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 03/01/14 12:37 AM

$36 for 5 litres today at Supercheap...

Bought the limit (1).
Posted by: dailydriver

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 03/01/14 02:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Shannow
$36 for 5 litres today at Supercheap...

Bought the limit (1).


For the M1 5W-50??

If so, then they are giving it away considering the normal Ozzie prices!!
Posted by: Shannow

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 03/01/14 04:20 PM

Yep, half price on 5W-30, 0W-40, and 5W-50.

last 5L bottle of M1 in my store, so word is out.

Bought some shell helix for less than $3/l the other day.

Something's moving
Posted by: Matt_N

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 03/07/14 02:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Clevy
How exactly is dumping oil that isn't depleted and replacing it with oil that isn't depleted "cheap insurance"

Sounds more like expensive insurance considering if the tbn is at 7 and starts at 9 or 10 you've effectively thrown money out the window.
Cheap insurance,right,because the oil is some kind of risk.


Simple. Rather than spending $35 on a UOA+TBN, I spend $40 and put fresh oil in. I periodically send samples to make sure wear metals are in order, but not every OCI. If, as you suggest, I were using UOA+TBN to make sure I was getting every last ounce of life out of the oil, I'd be spending hundreds in oil analyses before finally changing the oil.

My engine spends about 25% of it's total miles at Mid Ohio Sports Car Course or Watkins Glen. Under those conditions, I'd rather have the piece of mind of KNOWING my oil is fresh, instead of wondering if the next sample is going to come back with TBN of 0.9 or KV@100C of 11.0 and wear metals through the roof. So to me, the $5 difference between sending in a sample or just changing the oil is cheap insurance.

Nevermind that Porsche re-manufactured engine is $13,000 + 30hrs labor.
Posted by: SIXSPEED

Re: Mobil 5w50 SN VOA - 03/08/14 09:37 AM

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Does this product have Ford's actual approval yet for the Coyote (boosted or otherwise) specs which call for a 5W-50??

IT SHOULD!! wink

No it is not compliant with the Ford 5W50 oil spec, but I've been using it in my 2007 GT500 for years.