I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage

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Somehow I do not think that 20 wt oils exist solely for better fuel economy. First of all you may get 1/2 or 1 more MPG. If you want 1 or 2 MPG better then make the engine a few cc smaller. If every engine was just a little smaller then you get better gas mileage for the whole car line-up.

Several automotive manufacturers make only small cars. Chevy makes a bunch of Big, Thirst cars and trucks and a few small cars. They cannot compete with these “small car Only” companies. Mercedes has no small US cars and many are real gas guzzlers. Ferrari, Aston Martin, Rolls, Bentley, Lamborghini and many others make Only REALLY THIRSTY cars. They do not HAVE TO MEET EPA, CAFE standards for MPG. The answer is NO. The average “fleet” MPG is whatever it is.

Yes I paid a single gas guzzler tax when I bought my cars but no US car buyer looks at that or they would never buy all these cars the American car buyers keep buying. Few American car buyers buy hybrid cars. Just look at the stats. We by SUV’s.

There used to be a lot of tiny imported trucks. Now look at them. They are all HUGE trucks from the same companies. This is what we buy.

I do not think that Ford recommends a 20 wt oil in my Expedition to be able to meet some fleet-wide CAFE rule by getting a half more MPG. My “old” Mercedes SEL 600 with a 6.0 liter V12 and 412 BHP has run 80,000 miles on mostly Pennzoil 20 wt oil with 3-4,000 mile OCI’s and is running strong with no oil consumption at all. These “thin” oils can work and in my thinking provide better overall protection for us “short trip” Americans who are driving mostly in the start-up period.

I do not think that 20 wt oil was developed just to increase the average MPG of automotive manufacturer’s fleets to be able the meet MPG requirements. Cars are getting bigger. Engines are bigger and more powerful. This is what the average American is buying, not gas mileage.

aehaas
 
quote:

Originally posted by AEHaas:
Somehow I do not think that 20 wt oils exist solely for better fuel economy. First of all you may get 1/2 or 1 more MPG. If you want 1 or 2 MPG better then make the engine a few cc smaller. If every engine was just a little smaller then you get better gas mileage for the whole car line-up.

Several automotive manufacturers make only small cars. Chevy makes a bunch of Big, Thirst cars and trucks and a few small cars. They cannot compete with these “small car Only” companies. Mercedes has no small US cars and many are real gas guzzlers. Ferrari, Aston Martin, Rolls, Bentley, Lamborghini and many others make Only REALLY THIRSTY cars. They do not HAVE TO MEET EPA, CAFE standards for MPG. The answer is NO. The average “fleet” MPG is whatever it is.

Yes I paid a single gas guzzler tax when I bought my cars but no US car buyer looks at that or they would never buy all these cars the American car buyers keep buying. Few American car buyers buy hybrid cars. Just look at the stats. We by SUV’s.

There used to be a lot of tiny imported trucks. Now look at them. They are all HUGE trucks from the same companies. This is what we buy.

I do not think that Ford recommends a 20 wt oil in my Expedition to be able to meet some fleet-wide CAFE rule by getting a half more MPG. My “old” Mercedes SEL 600 with a 6.0 liter V12 and 412 BHP has run 80,000 miles on mostly Pennzoil 20 wt oil with 3-4,000 mile OCI’s and is running strong with no oil consumption at all. These “thin” oils can work and in my thinking provide better overall protection for us “short trip” Americans who are driving mostly in the start-up period.

I do not think that 20 wt oil was developed just to increase the average MPG of automotive manufacturer’s fleets to be able the meet MPG requirements. Cars are getting bigger. Engines are bigger and more powerful. This is what the average American is buying, not gas mileage.

aehaas


Then continue to use 20wt.
I'd use 5w30 Mobil 1.
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Can we link this thread to the Elf 20wt one?
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I think it is pretty much a fact that they are made for fuel efficiency. Whether they are as good is where the issue lies.
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I hope we aren't all going to end up in the same retirement home some day.
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buster: "Look at moribundman. He seems slow. I bet he's using that ultra-heavy 50 weight in his wheelchair." (I presume we will have gas-powered wheelchairs!)


moribundman: " I heard that, buster! Better check your oil. I think your rod bearings are knocking."
 
quote:

buster: "Look at moribundman. He seems slow. I bet he's using that ultra-heavy 50 weight in his wheelchair." (I presume we will have gas-powered wheelchairs!)


moribundman: " I heard that, buster! Better check your oil. I think your rod bearings are knocking."

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I know, it's getting out of control. My wife already thinks I'm nuts. Can't argue with her.
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quote:

Originally posted by High Plains Drifter:
"20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage "

Do you think the 20W oils of today are as good as the 20W Sinclair single grade I used in my 1954 Ford for 140,000 miles between 1954 and 1959? Even I was a young guy then, and that poor engine saw every rev it had many times, and was driven over 35,000 miles a year more than one time.

In those days, we started an engine out on 20W, and went to 30W when it began to use an excessive amount of oil. I never had to do that in 140,000 miles.
 
quote:

Originally posted by moribundman:
I hope we aren't all going to end up in the same retirement home some day.
wink.gif


buster: "Look at moribundman. He seems slow. I bet he's using that ultra-heavy 50 weight in his wheelchair." (I presume we will have gas-powered wheelchairs!)


moribundman: " I heard that, buster! Better check your oil. I think your rod bearings are knocking."


I'm hoping for a nuclear powered personal hovercraft with sealed lifetime bearings.
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Hi,
goodness me, think positive you two and look ahead until you reach the retirement village age
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Then, AEHaas will be using -15w-10 in his V13 AMG VW and in his Ferrari LagoMaggiore V19 Boxer
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You fellows will have spent a few years running 0w-0 oils just to get to your CAFE

I'll stick with D...............!

Regards
Doug
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It's been pointed out that Honda recommends 5W20 and Honda has no problem meeting CAFE targets, along with the "obvious" conclusion one should draw from that informantion.

However, I just did a Google search for "CAFE credits trade" and apparently several industry groups are pushing for legislation that would allow automakers to trade CAFE credits among one another.

This would allow, for example, Honda to trade their excess CAFE credits to Ford, for a predetermined price.

As it currently stands, an automaker can use their existing CAFE credits to offeset future CAFE deficits, so perhaps Honda is thinking about the future.
 
I thought that some of the UOAs of the Hondas and Ford Zetecs looked pretty good using xw-20. I noticed that the Iron and lead was lower in a lot of the Xw-20 UOAs vs Xw-30.
 
Aehass, Then why do the OEM's that recomend them restrict their usage to limited applications and not 100% across the board? Why do we only see 5W20 recomended by OEM's in N.America? Why do those companys that spend a large amount of money on fuel(cmerical transportation,mass transit,comerical trucking,locomotives,farmers,rental cars not switch?

Then we have the whole EPA paper informing Ford adn Honda that if they intended to certify with 5W20 they would have to make it available at the OEM level and see to it that it was available on the after market as well.They also had to recomend it soley as the preffered oil in that application!

Why did we see papers comeing out of Japan about 5W20 oils combined with low phosphurus limits for possably leading to premature timeing chain wear etc.....

We also have the Ford paper that actualy says that 5W20 was primarily for fuel economy!When Ford is even saying this it is hard to spin that in any other way!

We are going to have to sit back and wait to see what the long term implications are either way. When we have hundreds of thousands of Ford trucks and Honda cars and minivans with lots of miles on them we might be able to see the effect pro or con. The only problem I see is that documenting the oil used. If one car smokes badly and has 200,000 miles on it and the other car has the same milage adn does not smoke how do we know if it was 5W20,5W30,10W30,15W40 etc that was run in it? I think most people go the quick lube and mechanic route for oil changes and I doubt 5W20 has been embraced by these places yet? Most people do not hold on to their cars and trucks that long either.

To be honest I am egerly waiting for some bitog owners running 0W20 or 5W20 to get in excess of 150,000 miles worth of use and UOA so we can see the trend? I think conecting rod bearings and valvetrain coments are going to take a hit but I con not prove it! I think that the rings,main bearings and oil pump will be just fine. These just my opion not fact so I cannot wait to see what we see!
 
20-weights and thinner are sometimes used as racing oils. Also, 20-weights are popular in arctic environments. At work we have a pair of 16,000kw, 12-cyl, quad turbo-charged diesel generators. The preferred oil is 15w-40, but Caterpillar also specs 0w-20 for it in some very cold environments.
 
GM has put a skip shift feature in many of their 6-speeds for years just to gain 1/2-1 mpg, so it's not unbelievable that they would use 5w20 to get a similar gain.

-T
 
quote:

Originally posted by Jay:
20-weights and thinner are sometimes used as racing oils. Also, 20-weights are popular in arctic environments. At work we have a pair of 16,000kw, 12-cyl, quad turbo-charged diesel generators. The preferred oil is 15w-40, but Caterpillar also specs 0w-20 for it in some very cold environments.

I would think that stop and go driving on a public road could actually be more stressful on an oil than in a racing application, where there are probably huge oil coolers with ambient air going through them at very high speeds. The 20 weight racing oils also for the most part, have HT/HS viscosities of most 30 weights.
 
They are NOT just for fuel economy reasons.

0/5-20 weights are for temperatures below -10C. Viscosity is temperature dependant.

The problem is that in "disposable N.A." where we cruise at 65mph with low revving larger displacment (often pushrod) engines 5-30 and now 5-20 can and are used/recommended year 'round. This is a dummied down recommendation to keep everyone unintelligent as to the best grade per temperature.

Why? Because they seem to work for the duration of the warranty period. When don't they? BMW M3, VW, M-B, etc. have faced viscosity grade changes/lawsuits.

A lube is a lube. All grades will work in all engines. However, during high temps., high stress conditions, which one do you think will break down and result in bearing/piston scoring? A 5-20 or a 5-40??? Do you want to find out? What will the result be if there in NOT catastrophic engine failure? How will the thing be working/sounding after 100k? And what will the UOA show you?

But, you may be OK if you change the oil every 2wks/3k mi.. This is why non-ACEA rated dino 5-30's have worked in the US. They can't conceivably do a 10k OCI, but 3k mi. seems acceptable. However, the rest of the world thinks that's foolish and wastefull.

[ April 18, 2005, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Dr. T ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
Aehass, Then why do the OEM's that recomend them restrict their usage to limited applications and not 100% across the board? Why do we only see 5W20 recomended by OEM's in N.America? Why do those companys that spend a large amount of money on fuel(cmerical transportation,mass transit,comerical trucking,locomotives,farmers,rental cars not switch?

John makes a hand full of good points. I wonder why the Europeans are not using thinner oils if they do in fact provide better gas mileage. They are paying over $8 a gallon in places. If it gave that much better gas milage then why aren't they all using it.

My main premiss though is that I am running cooler. If they spec my Expedition for a 20 wt oil for all applications/conditions/towing then certainly my light duty use (of the truck) will not tax the oil. It does not get that hot and therefore it does not get that thin. And since 98 percent of my trips are 20 minutes or less then again the oil never even gets up to temperature. I always say that you should pick the viscosity for your particular application.

aehaas
 
quote:

Originally posted by AEHaas:
I do not think that Ford recommends a 20 wt oil in my Expedition to be able to meet some fleet-wide CAFE rule by getting a half more MPG. My “old” Mercedes SEL 600 with a 6.0 liter V12 and 412 BHP has run 80,000 miles on mostly Pennzoil 20 wt oil with 3-4,000 mile OCI’s and is running strong with no oil consumption at all. These “thin” oils can work and in my thinking provide better overall protection for us “short trip” Americans who are driving mostly in the start-up period.

You're preaching to the choir when it comes to me. I've been using 5w20 in my Chrysler 300M for over a year now and this grade has turned in the best UOA I've gotten so far on that engine (even though Chrysler specs 10w30 for it). At the last oil change I did briefly put 10w30 back in, but I only ran it a week. The difference in start up noise and smoothness was that noticeable so I went back to 5w20.

I do disagree with you about the MPG angle and OEM 5w20 factory fill. I think CAFE was the motivating factor behind OEMs doing initial research to answer this question: Will a 5w20 yield a statistically measurable increase in fuel economy over the already low HTHS 5w30 being spec'd? Ford of course was the front runner here and once they determined that the answer was YES they then laid down a set of performance requirements for the oil that would virtually guarantee that any 5w20 meeting their specs would protect not just as well as 5w30, but BETTER under equal conditions. In other words, Ford recognized that making 5w20 versions of existing 5w30 oils would never work from the standpoint of wear and engine durability even if it gave a boost to their CAFE numbers. In the end, Ford's tough specs for 5w20 have given us oils in this grade from every maker that are superior in the way they are made. Though I think what we are seeing with the new SM oils is that ALL grades are now having to be made in the same ways that Ford spec 5w20s have been made all along, i.e., superior base oils and better cutting edge additive technology.
 
aheass,too each his own you use what you believe is right..i donnot believe that a 20 wt oil is in our cars best interest and i am not taking a chance with such lite wt oils that are dictated to us from our gov. 20 wt. are not used in europe so i will stick with a high 10w30...for my fords.
 
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