Why do people want to complain about dexos?

Posted by: stchman

Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 02:39 PM

I have noticed that a LOT of folks here on this forum seem to take the dexos thing personally.

They complain that dexos is GM strong arming the oil companies into paying them these obscene fees and that the price for a quart of oil will go way up. As a consumer I see no price difference between dexos oils and non-dexos oils. If Valvoline and Amsoil are saving such a boatlod of cash by not paying GM's exorbitant fees, then their oils should be far less expensive. This does not appear to be the case.

Is it because some of the oil religions are being offended? I think so.

I look at it this way, GM is giving a 5 year 100K mile warranty on the drivetrain, they want to make sure people are using quality oil and doing their maintenance when they are supposed to. Trust me, working for 6+ years in the quick lube industry, I have seen more than my share of people that only maintain their car when something goes out. You would shudder at the people that only change the oil when the oil light comes on???!!!!

I don't blame GM for putting restrictions, I would do it as well.
Posted by: Quest

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 02:41 PM

same observations as when Dexcool first came out on the market.

Q.
Posted by: eljefino

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 02:44 PM

It's kind of like blank music CD-Rs with the license fees going to ASCAP. Maybe it's the principle of the thing. I might be recording my garage band on those CD-Rs and am at the same time sending money off to Celene Dion.

I want that nickel licensing fee (or whatever it is) going to Zinc and unicorn tears to make my oil more stout, not Government Motors so they can buy more private helicopters. horse
Posted by: bepperb

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 02:48 PM

It's not GM putting restrictions on the oil to fulfill their warranty. That's not what Dexos is. Most current oils meet that standard.

What it really is: GM charging a licensing fee to put a logo on the bottle. It's basically if you are under this NOACK value you can have the logo... if you pay us 7 cents a gallon. Why on earth anyone would pay that and not just... um... not pay it and put "meets or exceeds Dexos" is beyond me.

I don't care about GM either way, I don't like or hate them. But a spade is a spade and this is a licensing fee, not a warranty related oil standard like european or HTO-01 (which do not require a fee of any kind).

So... I don't blame GM for what you call "restrictions" either. But plenty of other companies manage to have "restrictions" that don't cost anything.
Posted by: OVERKILL

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 02:55 PM

Originally Posted By: stchman
I have noticed that a LOT of folks here on this forum seem to take the dexos thing personally.

They complain that dexos is GM strong arming the oil companies into paying them these obscene fees and that the price for a quart of oil will go way up. As a consumer I see no price difference between dexos oils and non-dexos oils. If Valvoline and Amsoil are saving such a boatlod of cash by not paying GM's exorbitant fees, then their oils should be far less expensive. This does not appear to be the case.

Is it because some of the oil religions are being offended? I think so.

I look at it this way, GM is giving a 5 year 100K mile warranty on the drivetrain, they want to make sure people are using quality oil and doing their maintenance when they are supposed to. Trust me, working for 6+ years in the quick lube industry, I have seen more than my share of people that only maintain their car when something goes out. You would shudder at the people that only change the oil when the oil light comes on???!!!!

I don't blame GM for putting restrictions, I would do it as well.


It isn't the restrictions or performance requirements of the oil, the Euro marques have been using those types requirements for decades. It is the fee that GM charges for the Dexos licensing that is the issue, as they cop a profit on every quart of oil sold, it is essentially highway robbery.

Put another way: To get LL-01, MB229.xx....etc you pay a fee for the testing and approval. Done. BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Audi....etc put you on their approved lubricant list and unless you change your formula significantly and need to recertify, that cost is done with.

With Dexos, GM charges you a royalty on every litre/quart sold in order for it to carry the DEXOS approval/logo. This makes it an ongoing source of profit for them. They are extracting money from the oil companies, and by extension, the consumer, for every litre of oil sold. Even if that oil is being used in a non-DEXOS application, you are paying for that approval.

GM has had performance requirements in the past for oils. The "Corvette spec", GM4718M, for example, was a stringent performance requirement and had no royalty fees associated with it. Ford has the same thing currently with their WSS-xxxx approvals. DEXOS isn't about performance, it is about profit. THAT is why people, and many of the oil companies, have taken issue with it.

Posted by: stchman

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 03:18 PM

I thought GM went to a flat dexos licensing fee instead of the royalty fee per gallon.
Posted by: cp3

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 03:19 PM

Please forgive me for not shedding a tear for the oil companies costs!

It would be interesting to see if the reaction would be the same if another manufacturer did the same thing. Or what the reaction was like when the API fee schedule was introduced.

7 cents a gallon isn't exactly exorbitant considering the up here you are looking at almost $50 a gallon for regular priced synthetic. It would be interesting to see the fee schedule and how it compares with the API's.
Posted by: cp3

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 03:21 PM

Originally Posted By: stchman
I thought GM went to a flat dexos licensing fee instead of the royalty fee per gallon.


There was a change to the structure but I don't recall what it was. I believe it was posted but seems to be consistently forgotten here and the original plan still quoted.
Posted by: Quattro Pete

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 03:26 PM

Originally Posted By: stchman
I thought GM went to a flat dexos licensing fee instead of the royalty fee per gallon.

GM did make some changes to the licensing fees in a way they calculate how many gallons of oil each oil mfg can potentially sell, but there is still a per gallon fee.

The whole calculation of potential sales for each mfg seems a bit convoluted to me...

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article001713657.cfm

Quote:
According to industry sources familiar with Dexos, GM will calculate the flat fee by using the total passenger car motor oil market in gallons, GM’s market share percentage and the oil marketer’s market share percentage. GM uses those three numbers to calculate the potential number of gallons of an oil marketers’ PCMO – everything, not just Dexos – that could end up in GM vehicles. The automaker does this individually for each region, sources indicate, though an oil marketer has to buy a global license.

GM then charges a per-gallon fee on the resulting number, sources said.

Sources suggested GM considers the fee a “flat” one in that GM looks at market shares today, and then calculates what an oil marketer’s fee will be over the next four years.


If the above is correct, then it sounds like it doesn't really matter how many products an oil mfg has in their lineup carrying the Dexos logo.
Posted by: LargeCarManX2

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 03:34 PM



I am sorry, we can't talk about religions....

quote: Is it because some of the oil religions are being offended? I think so quote:

No, we just don't like giving money to Government Motors...whoops...can't take politics...ummm

Ok, let's try this again....ok, if a independent company wants to pay the fees...that's fine, if one does not i.e. Amsoil etc etc ..that's fine too!
Posted by: stchman

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 03:41 PM

Originally Posted By: LargeCarManX2


I am sorry, we can't talk about religions....

quote: Is it because some of the oil religions are being offended? I think so quote:

No, we just don't like giving money to Government Motors...whoops...can't take politics...ummm

Ok, let's try this again....ok, if a independent company wants to pay the fees...that's fine, if one does not i.e. Amsoil etc etc ..that's fine too!


I was speaking about the people that say "If I can't use Amsoil, I won't drive a car anymore".

I'm quite sure that if someone uses Amsoil fo Valvoline SynPower, the engine will be fine, I just have never understood the almost religious fanatical devotion to a certain brand of oil.

Ad far as the bailout thing, I was not not that happy that the US taxpayers had to help GM, but that is pocket change compared to the amount of money the taxpayers give to the welfare and entitlements programs each year.
Posted by: bepperb

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 03:47 PM

Originally Posted By: cp3
It would be interesting to see if the reaction would be the same if another manufacturer did the same thing


That's everything you need to know right there... no other manufacturer does the same thing. And thank god. Imagine if Toyota wanted a nickel, and Chrylser wanted a dime, and Ford thought 8 cents was what they deserved... and when everyone was done that 5 quart jug of oil you bought was a dollar more.

Yep, if another manufacturer did the same thing it wouldn't be OK... so why is it ok if just one does it?

And for those interested, the API certification is less than 10% the dexos license fee and more or less universally accepted in North America, so that can't really be used as an excuse.
Posted by: bigjl

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 03:48 PM

My view is that some people think dino oil is the best oil for all vehicles and don't like the idea of Dexos.
Posted by: zloveraz

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 04:00 PM

Originally Posted By: stchman
I thought GM went to a flat dexos licensing fee instead of the royalty fee per gallon.


LOL yeah over 3 years ago....
Posted by: JavierG

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 04:30 PM

Originally Posted By: stchman
I have noticed that a LOT of folks here on this forum seem to take the dexos thing personally.

I look at it this way, GM is giving a 5 year 100K mile warranty on the drivetrain, they want to make sure people are using quality oil and doing their maintenance when they are supposed to.

But auto manufacturers like Hyundai already offer a 100k mile powertrain warranty. And they just ask that you use the correct weight and viscosity oil.
Posted by: Sunnyinhollister

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 04:46 PM

What if every other automaker decided that this was a good way to make money and started doing the same thing? Let's see:

GM $.07/quart
Ford $.06/quart
Chrysler $.08/quart
Honda $.05/quart
Toyota.$.05/quart

And so on.

This could get real ugly for the consumer if the other automakers follow suit. Why should I have to pay $.42 per oil change for a GM oil requirement when I do an oil change in my Jeep? Every quart of oil that has the Dexos stamp on it is inflated by $.07 regardless of the vehicle it is going into. That's just wrong.
Posted by: stchman

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 04:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Sunnyinhollister
What if every other automaker decided that this was a good way to make money and started doing the same thing? Let's see:

GM $.07/quart
Ford $.06/quart
Chrysler $.08/quart
Honda $.05/quart
Toyota.$.05/quart

And so on.

This could get real ugly for the consumer if the other automakers follow suit. Why should I have to pay $.42 per oil change for a GM oil requirement when I do an oil change in my Jeep? Every quart of oil that has the Dexos stamp on it is inflated by $.07 regardless of the vehicle it is going into. That's just wrong.


Thing is, dexos licensed oils are NOT $0.42 a quart higher, they are on par with non-dexos licensed oils.
Posted by: bullwinkle

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 05:08 PM

^^The reason Valvoline & others aren't knuckling under to GM's Dexos program (scam) is the precedent it would set-having to pay licensing fees to every mfr. under the son would eat into their profits. Considering that Valvoline/Ashland doesn't have any oil reserves of their own & has to buy everything they use, they are at a disadvantage to SOPUS, XOM, etc. already.
Posted by: Sunnyinhollister

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 05:37 PM

Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: Sunnyinhollister
What if every other automaker decided that this was a good way to make money and started doing the same thing? Let's see:

GM $.07/quart
Ford $.06/quart
Chrysler $.08/quart
Honda $.05/quart
Toyota.$.05/quart

And so on.

This could get real ugly for the consumer if the other automakers follow suit. Why should I have to pay $.42 per oil change for a GM oil requirement when I do an oil change in my Jeep? Every quart of oil that has the Dexos stamp on it is inflated by $.07 regardless of the vehicle it is going into. That's just wrong.


Thing is, dexos licensed oils are NOT $0.42 a quart higher, they are on par with non-dexos licensed oils.


I want to use PP in my Jeep for as oil change, I have no choice but to pay the $.42 cents (6 quarts x $.07) extortion fee for a spec my jeep does not need.
Posted by: stchman

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 05:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Sunnyinhollister
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: Sunnyinhollister
What if every other automaker decided that this was a good way to make money and started doing the same thing? Let's see:

GM $.07/quart
Ford $.06/quart
Chrysler $.08/quart
Honda $.05/quart
Toyota.$.05/quart

And so on.

This could get real ugly for the consumer if the other automakers follow suit. Why should I have to pay $.42 per oil change for a GM oil requirement when I do an oil change in my Jeep? Every quart of oil that has the Dexos stamp on it is inflated by $.07 regardless of the vehicle it is going into. That's just wrong.


Thing is, dexos licensed oils are NOT $0.42 a quart higher, they are on par with non-dexos licensed oils.


I want to use PP in my Jeep for as oil change, I have no choice but to pay the $.42 cents (6 quarts x $.07) extortion fee for a spec my jeep does not need.


Then use Valvoline SynPower. There's nothing magical about Pennzoil Platinum over Valvoline SynPower in your 1998 Jeep Wrangler Sport.

Most of the major oil brands are dexos licensed (Quaker State, Exxon Mobil, Pennzoil, Kendall, Havoline).

I'm quite certain that Ford, Chrysler, Honda, Toyota are looking at the same thing.
Posted by: Garak

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 06:06 PM

Originally Posted By: eljefino
It's kind of like blank music CD-Rs with the license fees going to ASCAP. Maybe it's the principle of the thing. I might be recording my garage band on those CD-Rs and am at the same time sending money off to Celene Dion.

OT, but you don't know how bad that is in Canada. CD-Rs are ridiculously more money than DVD-Rs, thanks to the Canadian fee, much of which does, I'm sure, go to Celine. wink
Posted by: HangFire

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 08:01 PM

Originally Posted By: cp3
Please forgive me for not shedding a tear for the oil companies costs!


Me either. I may shed a few, though, when those costs are passed on to me... with a little extra for their handling fees.
Posted by: squeakyg

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 09:53 PM

These complaints are just people with too much time on their hands. Here is a Dexos1 approved oil at 6/$30.00.

Mag1 Dexos1

Analysis says push for 7.5k miles of usage. How could a consumer complain about that? Maybe just maybe some of the people complaining are oil company employees paid to surf the web. Especially popular sites like this one. The others are just loyalist who have been brainwashed into parting with their money. I used to be like that.
Posted by: Hyde244

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/25/13 11:25 PM

Licensing fees are a perfectly acceptable model of business - I don't see anyone complaining about the even more absurd fees BP, Shell, and Exxon pay to be marked as Top Tier Gasoline.
Posted by: supercity

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/26/13 12:10 AM

The Penrite 5w30 synthetic that I last used is Dexos 1 licenced and is cheaper than the likes of Durablend that claim DX1 but is not even licenced. It's also almost half the price of M1 5w30 so it's not the Dexos licence that's costing the customer, not in Australia anyway.
Posted by: Capa

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/26/13 05:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Hyde244
Licensing fees are a perfectly acceptable model of business - I don't see anyone complaining about the even more absurd fees BP, Shell, and Exxon pay to be marked as Top Tier Gasoline.


There are many states where top tier gas is the exact same price as regular gas and so I'm not so sure how "absurd" the fee is. Furthermore, many oils pay licensing fee after licensing fee but it is not the same with gasoline. The absurdity with gasoline is that any rumor will cause it to spike 10-20 cents in a day and, even when the rumor turns out to be false, the price goes down 1-2 cents every day or two frown
Posted by: Flareside302

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/26/13 08:27 AM

DEXOS is a money grabbing way of gathering money back for loss of sales of they're own oil. IMO..

Just because an oil isn't DEXOS licensed doesn't mean it doesn't meet spec like some people think..

Just means they don't wanna spend money on the licensing..

All oil suppliers were given the specs to meet DEXOS, so in turn they know if it meets/exceeds or not.. That's why they post it in the bottle
Posted by: Durango

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/26/13 08:39 AM

Originally Posted By: stchman
I have noticed that a LOT of folks here on this forum seem to take the dexos thing personally.

They complain that dexos is GM strong arming the oil companies into paying them these obscene fees and that the price for a quart of oil will go way up. As a consumer I see no price difference between dexos oils and non-dexos oils. If Valvoline and Amsoil are saving such a boatlod of cash by not paying GM's exorbitant fees, then their oils should be far less expensive. This does not appear to be the case.

Is it because some of the oil religions are being offended? I think so.

I look at it this way, GM is giving a 5 year 100K mile warranty on the drivetrain, they want to make sure people are using quality oil and doing their maintenance when they are supposed to. Trust me, working for 6+ years in the quick lube industry, I have seen more than my share of people that only maintain their car when something goes out. You would shudder at the people that only change the oil when the oil light comes on???!!!!

I don't blame GM for putting restrictions, I would do it as well.


stchman,

Personally I don't mind the Dexos labeling. It appears most quality oils are getting the label on them anyway. Besides that I'm more of a synthetic user myself so that's why I go by my OLM in my GM cars instead of going by mileage.

Durango
Posted by: zuluplus30

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/26/13 11:58 AM

I don't mind the Dexos spec either. It takes GM's two previous oil specs 6094M and 4718M and combines them into one. The old 6094M was just a change in low temp pumpability and was easily met by almost all conventional oils on the shelf. The 4718M was originally a Corvette spec that required lower NOACK volatility and a cap on oxidation at high temps (which were more stringent than the GF4 specs at the time). It's how GM got away with no oil cooler on the Vette because they were struggling with how to package it in the bumper and plumb it. It later found its way into a myriad of other 6.0/6.2+ applications. Currently, it is near impossible to find a DEXOS oil that isn't at least a synblend, most being a full synthetic. It makes me feel much better about going the full life of the OLM, something I've never done on conventional oil. GM also uses it as a way to tout lower overall TCO when they sell a vehicle, which is something all manufacturers are in too right now. That's all worth $.07 a gallon if you ask me.
Posted by: OVERKILL

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/26/13 02:25 PM

Originally Posted By: zuluplus30
I don't mind the Dexos spec either. It takes GM's two previous oil specs 6094M and 4718M and combines them into one. The old 6094M was just a change in low temp pumpability and was easily met by almost all conventional oils on the shelf. The 4718M was originally a Corvette spec that required lower NOACK volatility and a cap on oxidation at high temps (which were more stringent than the GF4 specs at the time). It's how GM got away with no oil cooler on the Vette because they were struggling with how to package it in the bumper and plumb it. It later found its way into a myriad of other 6.0/6.2+ applications. Currently, it is near impossible to find a DEXOS oil that isn't at least a synblend, most being a full synthetic. It makes me feel much better about going the full life of the OLM, something I've never done on conventional oil. GM also uses it as a way to tout lower overall TCO when they sell a vehicle, which is something all manufacturers are in too right now. That's all worth $.07 a gallon if you ask me.


The point is not the specs but the royalties, something other OEM's don't do with their certifications/approvals.

Specs like LL-01, LL-98....etc are also long-life oil specs and the euro marques maintain lists of approved lubricants. But there are no royalties associated with this, only the cost of obtaining the approval, which is the case for I believe all brands that aren't GM.
Posted by: Garak

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/26/13 03:01 PM

As a minor counterpoint, though, Overkill, at least dexos1 certification has visibility on an oil bottle. Reading the fine print for non-BITOGers who don't have all this business memorized is not going to be easy.

Then again, I don't want oil bottles to look like they're plastered with race car liveries, either. M1 logos on the McLaren Mercedes, Mercedes logos on the M1 0w-40, right? wink
Posted by: zuluplus30

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/26/13 04:59 PM

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: zuluplus30
I don't mind the Dexos spec either. It takes GM's two previous oil specs 6094M and 4718M and combines them into one. The old 6094M was just a change in low temp pumpability and was easily met by almost all conventional oils on the shelf. The 4718M was originally a Corvette spec that required lower NOACK volatility and a cap on oxidation at high temps (which were more stringent than the GF4 specs at the time). It's how GM got away with no oil cooler on the Vette because they were struggling with how to package it in the bumper and plumb it. It later found its way into a myriad of other 6.0/6.2+ applications. Currently, it is near impossible to find a DEXOS oil that isn't at least a synblend, most being a full synthetic. It makes me feel much better about going the full life of the OLM, something I've never done on conventional oil. GM also uses it as a way to tout lower overall TCO when they sell a vehicle, which is something all manufacturers are in too right now. That's all worth $.07 a gallon if you ask me.


The point is not the specs but the royalties, something other OEM's don't do with their certifications/approvals.

Specs like LL-01, LL-98....etc are also long-life oil specs and the euro marques maintain lists of approved lubricants. But there are no royalties associated with this, only the cost of obtaining the approval, which is the case for I believe all brands that aren't GM.


If you were EM/SOPUS/Ashland, wouldn't you be happy to pay the royalty now that millions of cars are required to use your higher margin top shelf synthetics vs the traditionally prices conventionals? I'd jump on it in a heartbeat. And so far, the royalty doesn't appear to have been passed on to the consumer.
Posted by: Quattro Pete

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/26/13 05:21 PM

Originally Posted By: zuluplus30
If you were EM/SOPUS/Ashland, wouldn't you be happy to pay the royalty now that millions of cars are required to use your higher margin top shelf synthetics vs the traditionally prices conventionals?

Just because you pay royalty is not a guarantee that someone will actually buy your product. Dexos1 royalty fees are based on potential sales, not actual sales. Besides, these companies likely already had products that met dexos1 requirements. The only thing the royalty fee would give them is the ability to slap on the dexos1 logo on the bottle.

Quote:
And so far, the royalty doesn't appear to have been passed on to the consumer.

It's an extra cost. Sooner or later it'll get passed onto the end user, one way or another. The company won't just gladly eat it.
Posted by: y_p_w

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/26/13 05:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Garak
As a minor counterpoint, though, Overkill, at least dexos1 certification has visibility on an oil bottle. Reading the fine print for non-BITOGers who don't have all this business memorized is not going to be easy.

Then again, I don't want oil bottles to look like they're plastered with race car liveries, either. M1 logos on the McLaren Mercedes, Mercedes logos on the M1 0w-40, right? wink

There's already the NASCAR logo.
Posted by: Quattro Pete

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/26/13 05:44 PM

And yes, all these long life specs in effect shift the demand from mineral to synthetic oil, except that only GM asks for royalties. Maybe API does too, I can't remember now.

However, as the sales shift from mineral to synthetic, the amount of actual product sold comes down since most people will run the synthetic oil longer.
Posted by: TiredTrucker

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/26/13 06:51 PM

I think what is totally amusing about the whole dexos/GM thing is how GM actively promotes flex fuel vehicles using ethanol, but the dexos spec is WEAKER regarding ethanol use than the ILSAC GF-5 spec, which most oils meet along with the API SN spec.

This whole dexos thing is a ruse. Just a way to give those auto owners who have a large paranoia gland something to worry about. I have no problem, in general, with the spec. Just that it is not that big of a deal. I have a 2013 Chevrolet Silverado with a 5.3L engine in it. Since dropping the factory fill oil at 1200 miles, it has not seen any oil that has a dexos emblem on it. It gets Schaeffer 9003D 5w30 which claims it meets and exceeds the dexos spec, but doesn't have the label on the front, nor is it on the "approved" list. I I sleep just fine at night.
Posted by: fdcg27

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/26/13 06:59 PM

There are two separate factors in play here.
GM wanted an oil spec that would allow any of its cars sold worldwide to run safely to OLM limits, a laudable goal.
Yeah, to be adequate for the turbos or for tracked new Corvettes in stock form (all three of them in the continental US) or the DIs such an oil would be overkill for most GM engines, but GM could always adjust the OLM algorithym to account for that and to allow longer drains on the lo-po cars.
So far, so good.
GM then said that if a blender wanted to display the dorky looking Dexos logo on its oil, it would have to pass the certification tests and then pay GM a fee to license this trademarked bit of nonsense.
Many, maybe most blenders balked, and instead give the buyer the information that their oil meets or exceeds Dexos 1, while avoiding the trademark licensing fee.
Most likely all OTS synthetics easily meet Dexos 1, logo or not.
Posted by: Garak

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/26/13 07:17 PM

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
There's already the NASCAR logo.

They should put a giant dexos1 logo on GM vehicles in NASCAR. wink
Posted by: Sw296inchblue

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/26/13 11:05 PM

If GM had their way, every part your gm car needed (including oil) would only be available from a licensed gm seller/reseller. This scam is 60 years old, they've just found a way to apply the same type of twisted logic with motor oil. Problem is the oil companies blinked.Hopefully these lic. Deals the oil companies signed will expire and not be renewed. This is nonsense, could you imagine, a bottle of oil covered with an approval spec/logo from every manufacturer out their. My 3 Vehicles are all GM
Posted by: OVERKILL

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/26/13 11:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Sw296inchblue
could you imagine, a bottle of oil covered with an approval spec/logo from every manufacturer out their. My 3 Vehicles are all GM


I don't think you've looked at many oil bottles lately wink

Next time you are in an auto parts store, take a look at the back of a Mobil 1 0w-40 bottle smile
Posted by: TiredTrucker

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/26/13 11:42 PM

Yeah, and if all that stuff isn't listed on the bottle, look at their data sheets. Seems like everyone who makes an engine has their own unique classification, and none of them the typical API or ILSAC classification.
Posted by: Doug Hillary

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/26/13 11:49 PM

Hi,
TiredTrucker - The trend towards EOMs and Oil Companies working together is about to gain more momentum

We can expect more very specific lubricant applications as new technologies are introduced by engine Manufacturers. Joint development is the way this is now being done!
Posted by: Sw296inchblue

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/27/13 03:33 AM

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Sw296inchblue
could you imagine, a bottle of oil covered with an approval spec/logo from every manufacturer out their. My 3 Vehicles are all GM


I don't think you've looked at many oil bottles lately wink

Next time you are in an auto parts store, take a look at the back of a Mobil 1 0w-40 bottle smile
. I meant on the front of the bottle were you see the big dexos logo. This just makes GM look So Petty.
Posted by: cp3

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/27/13 09:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Sw296inchblue
If GM had their way, every part your gm car needed (including oil) would only be available from a licensed gm seller/reseller.


Just GM? I don't think any other manufacturer would be upset by this either.

QP, Yes API has a license and royalty fee but I think current numbers are slightly higher than what is quoted in your linked article.
Posted by: OVERKILL

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/27/13 09:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Sw296inchblue
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Sw296inchblue
could you imagine, a bottle of oil covered with an approval spec/logo from every manufacturer out their. My 3 Vehicles are all GM


I don't think you've looked at many oil bottles lately wink

Next time you are in an auto parts store, take a look at the back of a Mobil 1 0w-40 bottle smile
. I meant on the front of the bottle were you see the big dexos logo. This just makes GM look So Petty.


Gotcha cheers
Posted by: CourierDriver

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/27/13 10:00 AM

Im thankful we arent talking about Fram,,arent you?
Posted by: Patman

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/28/13 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker


I have a 2013 Chevrolet Silverado with a 5.3L engine in it. Since dropping the factory fill oil at 1200 miles, it has not seen any oil that has a dexos emblem on it. It gets Schaeffer 9003D 5w30 which claims it meets and exceeds the dexos spec, but doesn't have the label on the front, nor is it on the "approved" list. I I sleep just fine at night.


I don't think you'll be sleeping too well if you have a warranty claim on that engine and GM denies it for not running an approved oil. I realize the chances of it happening are super slim, but if I owned a new car still under warranty I certainly wouldn't be taking any chances.
Posted by: dave1251

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/28/13 08:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Patman
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker


I have a 2013 Chevrolet Silverado with a 5.3L engine in it. Since dropping the factory fill oil at 1200 miles, it has not seen any oil that has a dexos emblem on it. It gets Schaeffer 9003D 5w30 which claims it meets and exceeds the dexos spec, but doesn't have the label on the front, nor is it on the "approved" list. I I sleep just fine at night.


I don't think you'll be sleeping too well if you have a warranty claim on that engine and GM denies it for not running an approved oil. I realize the chances of it happening are super slim, but if I owned a new car still under warranty I certainly wouldn't be taking any chances.


GM would not have a leg to stand on by denying a warranty claim especially with a PCMO that exceeds the GM spec. GM would have to repair under warranty and then pay the legal fee's. GM would not go down that route not a wise business move.

Oh wait it is GM maybe they would go down that route.
Posted by: TiredTrucker

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/28/13 11:43 PM

Well, I guess I really don't lose any sleep over warranty hassles with my pickup because of oil I use. Especially since I have other engines that cost, alone, almost as much as my pickup does that no OEM gives me any hassles about oils in them. I have never had a warranty issue over oils in any commercial truck, ag tractor, etc. Dealing with an auto dealer is like dealing with youngsters. They think they know a lot, but their nonsense only works with the low information crowd. And a quick call to my attorney and having him give them a call will probably cure any dealer nonsense. And I am sure the FTC, who has just recently placed more emphasis on enforcement of the Magnussen Moss Warranty act because dealers are trying to go rogue, could make trouble for them also.

Nope. Doesn't bother me a bit that I am using a non dexos approved oil. Especially since the owners manual clearly states "or equivalent" in the section stating what oil to use. Well, the Schaeffer oil I use is more than "equivalent".

The dealer has about as much luck denying a warranty claim because of oil I use as a snow ball in hades. But they are welcome to try. I love taking on mental pygmies and making them eat crow. But first, the dealer is going to have to determine if the oil is not a dexos oil or "equivalent" per the manual. Not hardly.
Posted by: SteveSRT8

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/29/13 05:38 AM

Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
Im thankful we arent talking about Fram,,arent you?



hahaha, ding dang darn right.

Nothing like a bash GM thread to bring out the goofy comments. I guess people actually imagine there is some sort of goober conspiracy here, and the 'evil GM' is the reason for all evil in oils....
Posted by: CourierDriver

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/30/13 05:46 AM

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
Im thankful we arent talking about Fram,,arent you?



hahaha, ding dang darn right.

Nothing like a bash GM thread to bring out the goofy comments. I guess people actually imagine there is some sort of goober conspiracy here, and the 'evil GM' is the reason for all evil in oils....


Many know all, but there are very few of the all's.
Posted by: Flareside302

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/30/13 08:02 AM

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Well, I guess I really don't lose any sleep over warranty hassles with my pickup because of oil I use. Especially since I have other engines that cost, alone, almost as much as my pickup does that no OEM gives me any hassles about oils in them. I have never had a warranty issue over oils in any commercial truck, ag tractor, etc. Dealing with an auto dealer is like dealing with youngsters. They think they know a lot, but their nonsense only works with the low information crowd. And a quick call to my attorney and having him give them a call will probably cure any dealer nonsense. And I am sure the FTC, who has just recently placed more emphasis on enforcement of the Magnussen Moss Warranty act because dealers are trying to go rogue, could make trouble for them also.

Nope. Doesn't bother me a bit that I am using a non dexos approved oil. Especially since the owners manual clearly states "or equivalent" in the section stating what oil to use. Well, the Schaeffer oil I use is more than "equivalent".

The dealer has about as much luck denying a warranty claim because of oil I use as a snow ball in hades. But they are welcome to try. I love taking on mental pygmies and making them eat crow. But first, the dealer is going to have to determine if the oil is not a dexos oil or "equivalent" per the manual. Not hardly.


FINALLY!!! Someone that is posting the truth and not scared of everyone trying to bully the DEXOS garbage on people..

They can not deny a warranty if the oil meets/exceeds the spec... Doesn't have to be certified..

^ and manual does indeed say equivalent.. I've seen multiple manuals just to verify
Posted by: dave1251

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 11/30/13 12:26 PM

A better question in my opinion would of been why GM did set their requirement recommendations with the API and ISLAC. Rather than go rouge set a requirement independent of every other member for DEXOS then insist on another revenue stream for themselves and then not open the books to the public were DEXOS profits are being withheld.
Posted by: thereed

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/01/13 10:12 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but i thought that the DEXOS spec put the oil through additional/existing testing that proved that it was better for engine wear, sludge and piston deposits compare to API/ILSAC testing? I also thought that GM was going to be randomly selecting products from the retailers shelves to ensure the products complied with the spec?

If all of that is true, then I will gladly pay an additional 7 cents a gallon for DEXOS approved oils.
Posted by: OVERKILL

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/01/13 12:41 PM

Originally Posted By: thereed
Correct me if I'm wrong, but i thought that the DEXOS spec put the oil through additional/existing testing that proved that it was better for engine wear, sludge and piston deposits compare to API/ILSAC testing? I also thought that GM was going to be randomly selecting products from the retailers shelves to ensure the products complied with the spec?

If all of that is true, then I will gladly pay an additional 7 cents a gallon for DEXOS approved oils.


While it is certainly more stringent than the API/ILSAC approvals, most oils will also carry the ACEA stuff. A5/B5 covers basically everything DEXOS does, with slightly less emphasis on oxidation and fuel economy. Dexos 1 also seems to have slightly more of a focus on wear:

Posted by: Norm Olt

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/01/13 12:51 PM

Originally Posted By: cp3
Please forgive me for not shedding a tear for the oil companies costs!

It would be interesting to see if the reaction would be the same if another manufacturer did the same thing. Or what the reaction was like when the API fee schedule was introduced.

7 cents a gallon isn't exactly exorbitant considering the up here you are looking at almost $50 a gallon for regular priced synthetic. It would be interesting to see the fee schedule and how it compares with the API's.


In 2011 Exon-Mobil made approximately $0.07 (YEP: that's 7 cents!) per gallon of gas delivered vs. an AVERAGE of $0.48 in combined fed & state taxes, per gallon.

Those "GREEDY" oil companies! BAD BAD BAD!!!
Posted by: stchman

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/01/13 01:41 PM

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I think what is totally amusing about the whole dexos/GM thing is how GM actively promotes flex fuel vehicles using ethanol, but the dexos spec is WEAKER regarding ethanol use than the ILSAC GF-5 spec, which most oils meet along with the API SN spec.

This whole dexos thing is a ruse. Just a way to give those auto owners who have a large paranoia gland something to worry about. I have no problem, in general, with the spec. Just that it is not that big of a deal. I have a 2013 Chevrolet Silverado with a 5.3L engine in it. Since dropping the factory fill oil at 1200 miles, it has not seen any oil that has a dexos emblem on it. It gets Schaeffer 9003D 5w30 which claims it meets and exceeds the dexos spec, but doesn't have the label on the front, nor is it on the "approved" list. I I sleep just fine at night.


This is almost laughable. You'd rather use some off brand oil because of some obscure loyalty than use what the manufacturer wants?

I do agree that if one changes the oil when the manufacturer specifes, the odds of engine failure are slim to none, but GM could maybe not deny, but significantly delay repairs to your engine.

A vehicle is a HUGE investment and why do something to jeopardize it simply because you "feel" that your oil choice is better?
Posted by: TiredTrucker

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/01/13 02:37 PM

Ah, but I am using something OEM wants! The brand I am using, Schaeffer, meets the specs that make up the dexos spec! The GM 4718M and the GM 6094M specs. They just didn't shell out the dexos royalty fees. So who gets to laugh!

You assumed too much from my comments. I only was observing that the ILSAC GF-5 spec addresses the ethanol blends better than the dexos spec, which seemed strange since GM actively promotes ethanol use.

And you make an assumption, that I have never had happen with everything from consumer autos to commercial semis to agriculture and construction equipment that I sought warranty work on..... no one has ever even asked what oil I was using. Maybe the grade of oil, but never the brand.

This whole issue just exhibits that some have a paranoia gland that is enlarged.
Posted by: stchman

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/01/13 02:58 PM

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Ah, but I am using something OEM wants! The brand I am using, Schaeffer, meets the specs that make up the dexos spec! The GM 4718M and the GM 6094M specs. They just didn't shell out the dexos royalty fees. So who gets to laugh!

You assumed too much from my comments. I only was observing that the ILSAC GF-5 spec addresses the ethanol blends better than the dexos spec, which seemed strange since GM actively promotes ethanol use.

And you make an assumption, that I have never had happen with everything from consumer autos to commercial semis to agriculture and construction equipment that I sought warranty work on..... no one has ever even asked what oil I was using. Maybe the grade of oil, but never the brand.

This whole issue just exhibits that some have a paranoia gland that is enlarged.


Schaeffer "says" it meets the specs? Has it been tested to indeed mettt dexos specs.

It's kind of like getting pulled over by a cop having no drivers license. You can tell the cop you meet or exceed the expectations of your state's requirements.

It probably does, but does Schaeffer do anything at a greater prioce than licensed Mobil 1 does? No.
Posted by: Flareside302

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/01/13 03:28 PM

Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Ah, but I am using something OEM wants! The brand I am using, Schaeffer, meets the specs that make up the dexos spec! The GM 4718M and the GM 6094M specs. They just didn't shell out the dexos royalty fees. So who gets to laugh!

You assumed too much from my comments. I only was observing that the ILSAC GF-5 spec addresses the ethanol blends better than the dexos spec, which seemed strange since GM actively promotes ethanol use.

And you make an assumption, that I have never had happen with everything from consumer autos to commercial semis to agriculture and construction equipment that I sought warranty work on..... no one has ever even asked what oil I was using. Maybe the grade of oil, but never the brand.

This whole issue just exhibits that some have a paranoia gland that is enlarged.


Schaeffer "says" it meets the specs? Has it been tested to indeed mettt dexos specs.

It's kind of like getting pulled over by a cop having no drivers license. You can tell the cop you meet or exceed the expectations of your state's requirements.

It probably does, but does Schaeffer do anything at a greater prioce than licensed Mobil 1 does? No.


All oil blenders are able to get the DEXOS testing and specs.. So they can test they're own oils before they submitted them for DEXOS approval.. So just because they didn't have GM test it, doesn't mean it doesn't exceed/meet..
Posted by: OVERKILL

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/01/13 04:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Flareside302

All oil blenders are able to get the DEXOS testing and specs.. So they can test they're own oils before they submitted them for DEXOS approval.. So just because they didn't have GM test it, doesn't mean it doesn't exceed/meet..


Correct. And since GM doesn't REQUIRE the use of Dexos oils, they simply recommend it, they cannot deny warranty if you don't use it. This is quite different from a lot of Ford's verbiage stating that you must use an oil meeting WSS-xxxxxxx and that of many of the Euro marques that REQUIRE you to use an oil that is approved by them (and hence their approval lists).
Posted by: TiredTrucker

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/01/13 07:04 PM

Originally Posted By: stchman


Schaeffer "says" it meets the specs? Has it been tested to indeed mettt dexos specs.

It's kind of like getting pulled over by a cop having no drivers license. You can tell the cop you meet or exceed the expectations of your state's requirements.

It probably does, but does Schaeffer do anything at a greater prioce than licensed Mobil 1 does? No.


How times and users here have changed at BITOG. I highly doubt this would have been questioned about Schaeffer a few years ago at BITOG. Anyone who has dealt with Schaeffer knows that it is a top flight oil. And your worshiping at the holy grail of Mobil is showing.
Posted by: artificialist

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/01/13 07:37 PM

GM already screwed me over big time with my Saturn, plus all that stuff that happened in 2008, so everything I have a chance to use something not actually approved by GM, I do so.
Posted by: Quattro Pete

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/01/13 07:50 PM

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Anyone who has dealt with Schaeffer knows that it is a top flight oil.

While it may be the case, they've been known to be overly optimistic with some of their claims. For example, the TDS for their 9000 5w-40 oil states: "Supreme 9000 SAE 5W-40 is formulated to meet and exceeds... MB 229.5" spec. But then you look at its NOACK and you know it's not true. It may have been formulated to do XYZ, but it actually doesn't.
Posted by: cp3

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/02/13 08:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Norm Olt
Originally Posted By: cp3
Please forgive me for not shedding a tear for the oil companies costs!

It would be interesting to see if the reaction would be the same if another manufacturer did the same thing. Or what the reaction was like when the API fee schedule was introduced.

7 cents a gallon isn't exactly exorbitant considering the up here you are looking at almost $50 a gallon for regular priced synthetic. It would be interesting to see the fee schedule and how it compares with the API's.


In 2011 Exon-Mobil made approximately $0.07 (YEP: that's 7 cents!) per gallon of gas delivered vs. an AVERAGE of $0.48 in combined fed & state taxes, per gallon.

Those "GREEDY" oil companies! BAD BAD BAD!!!


Well here, I'm paying approximately $0.38 per liter tax on gas but I'm still not sure what that has to do with dexos.

I never said the oil companies were bad or greedy, everyone has a right to make money. And with XOM's profits down almost 20% 2013 Q3 to 2012 Q3 to under $8 billion they clearly know how to.

No one has shown what the royalties actually are, $0.07/gallon may be accurate and it may not. No one has shown what the API royalties are, they may be more or less, I don't know. What I am confident in saying is that if either of these fees put one of the super-majors at risk, they will have no concern in passing that fee on to us, if they haven't already. I have no doubt they will continue on, dexos royalty or no.
Posted by: blackman777

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/02/13 11:55 AM

I like Dexos.

I was finally able to convince my dad to switch from conventional to synthetic "because the manual says use dexos-rated oil". Now I know I will inherit a well-maintained engine, rather than a sludged-up mess (last car I got with lots of short trips).
Posted by: Norm Olt

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/04/13 10:47 AM

Scary thought, almost like the commercial where Dad falls off the ladder while cleaning the gutters (but he's not hurt) and all the daughters are concerned about is whether Mom & Dad have "insurance, you know..." for all those pesky final expenses?

They ought to follow it with the "Have you ever thought about a reverse mortgage?" commercial...

Cheers!

p.s. Nuthin' wrong with inheriting a car: I got the 1971 Imperial LeBaron (440") in about 1978 and my brother still has the last car my mom had, a 1983 Coupe deVille (4.1l)
Posted by: stchman

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/04/13 04:28 PM

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: stchman


Schaeffer "says" it meets the specs? Has it been tested to indeed mettt dexos specs.

It's kind of like getting pulled over by a cop having no drivers license. You can tell the cop you meet or exceed the expectations of your state's requirements.

It probably does, but does Schaeffer do anything at a greater prioce than licensed Mobil 1 does? No.


How times and users here have changed at BITOG. I highly doubt this would have been questioned about Schaeffer a few years ago at BITOG. Anyone who has dealt with Schaeffer knows that it is a top flight oil. And your worshiping at the holy grail of Mobil is showing.


I am not "worshiping" Mobil Oil. My next oil change will be Pennzoil Platinum (got it at a good deal from AAP and Pennzoil gave me a $20 MIR). If I was such a Mobil zealot, I would not even consider Pennzoil.

I am going to use Pennzoil Platinum as it too is dexos licensed.
Posted by: stchman

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/04/13 04:34 PM

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Flareside302

All oil blenders are able to get the DEXOS testing and specs.. So they can test they're own oils before they submitted them for DEXOS approval.. So just because they didn't have GM test it, doesn't mean it doesn't exceed/meet..


Correct. And since GM doesn't REQUIRE the use of Dexos oils, they simply recommend it, they cannot deny warranty if you don't use it. This is quite different from a lot of Ford's verbiage stating that you must use an oil meeting WSS-xxxxxxx and that of many of the Euro marques that REQUIRE you to use an oil that is approved by them (and hence their approval lists).


Here is a direct clip of my owners manual:

Quote:

Notice: Failure to use the
recommended engine oil or
equivalent can result in engine
damage not covered by the
vehicle warranty. Check with your
dealer or service provider on
whether the oil is approved to the
dexos1 specification.


Sounds like GM requires you to use dexos oil. Since they are the maintainer of my warranty, I will abide by their requirements.

As far as who gets to determine what is equivalent I will leave that up to the manufacturer. I don't think that YOU get to determine what GM can or cannot do

IMO, an automobile is a VERY expensive purchase, why chance it on oil that makes someone "feel" good and not use what the manufacturer recommends?
Posted by: OVERKILL

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/04/13 04:39 PM

Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Flareside302

All oil blenders are able to get the DEXOS testing and specs.. So they can test they're own oils before they submitted them for DEXOS approval.. So just because they didn't have GM test it, doesn't mean it doesn't exceed/meet..


Correct. And since GM doesn't REQUIRE the use of Dexos oils, they simply recommend it, they cannot deny warranty if you don't use it. This is quite different from a lot of Ford's verbiage stating that you must use an oil meeting WSS-xxxxxxx and that of many of the Euro marques that REQUIRE you to use an oil that is approved by them (and hence their approval lists).


Here is a direct clip of my owners manual:

Quote:

Notice: Failure to use the
recommended engine oil or
equivalent can result in engine
damage not covered by the
vehicle warranty. Check with your
dealer or service provider on
whether the oil is approved to the
dexos1 specification.


Sounds like GM requires you to use dexos oil. Since they are the maintainer of my warranty, I will abide by their requirements.

As far as who gets to determine what is equivalent I will leave that up to the manufacturer. I don't think that YOU get to determine what GM can or cannot do

IMO, an automobile is a VERY expensive purchase, why chance it on oil that makes someone "feel" good and not use what the manufacturer recommends?


Can you post the part where it actually recommends what to use? IE, if they recommend you use an oil that meets Dexos 1 or equivalent, then that's all you need to run: An oil that meets dexos 1 or equivalent. In doing so, you are using what they require wink
Posted by: Quattro Pete

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/04/13 04:47 PM

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
An oil that meets dexos 1 or equivalent.

What would be a Dexos1 equivalent, just curious?
Posted by: Clevy

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/04/13 04:52 PM

Originally Posted By: blackman777
I like Dexos.

I was finally able to convince my dad to switch from conventional to synthetic "because the manual says use dexos-rated oil". Now I know I will inherit a well-maintained engine, rather than a sludged-up mess (last car I got with lots of short trips).




If an engine is sludged up perhaps properly maintaining the engine could help.
If your dad is running longer than acceptable intervals with conventional why wouldn't he do the same with synthetic.
The more of your posts I read the more I want to read.
Posted by: OVERKILL

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/04/13 04:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
An oil that meets dexos 1 or equivalent.

What would be a Dexos1 equivalent, just curious?


Probably an oil like Valvoline that says that it meets the requirements of Dexos 1 but isn't officially licensed? shrug
Posted by: Quattro Pete

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/04/13 04:58 PM

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
An oil that meets dexos 1 or equivalent.

What would be a Dexos1 equivalent, just curious?


Probably an oil like Valvoline that says that it meets the requirements of Dexos 1 but isn't officially licensed? shrug

Oh, got it. Thanks.
Posted by: OVERKILL

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/04/13 05:02 PM

http://www.gm.ca/media/owners/manuals/2014_Chevrolet_Caprice_Police_en_CA.pdf

Quote:
Specification
Use and ask for licensed engine oils with the dexos1® approved certification mark. Engine oils meeting the requirements for the vehicle should have the dexos1 approved certification mark. This certification mark indicates that the oil has been approved to the dexos1 specification.


Quote:
Failure to use the recommended engine oil can result in engine damage not covered by the vehicle warranty. Check with your dealer or service provider on whether the oil is approved to the dexos1 specification.


Quote:
Viscosity Grade
SAE 5W-30 is the best viscosity grade for the vehicle. Do not use other viscosity grade oils such as SAE 10W-30, 10W-40, or 20W-50. Cold Temperature Operation: In an area of extreme cold, where the temperature falls below −29°C (−20°F), an SAE 0W-30 oil may be used. An oil of this viscosity grade will provide easier cold starting for the engine at extremely low temperatures. When selecting an oil of the appropriate viscosity grade, always select an oil of the correct specification. See “Specification” earlier in this section for more information.


Quote:
Engine Oil
Use only engine oil licensed to the dexos1® specification of the proper
SAE viscosity grade. ACDelco dexos1 Synthetic Blend is recommended.


Based on that last statement, a DEXOS 1 licensed product is REQUIRED in this application. Which I think may be different from the verbiage in earlier GM manuals.

This is very similar to what most of the Euro marques do (minus the royalties of course).
Posted by: jake88

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/04/13 05:06 PM

It is not the $0.07/gallon but the fee to originate the license that puts out the small and medium sized marketers. That fee is no sweat off the backs of Mobil or Castrol or Valvoline. Kudos to Valvoline, though, even though I am sure it was their self interest rather than their concern for the independent marketer that drove their resistance to the GM DEXOS racket.

My company blends a formula that has already been approved by GM... but that really doesn't matter because we do not sell enough synthetic engine oil to ever break even on a $20,000 licensing fee. That is unless we want to sell oil at a $2/qt premium. I mean, I guess it is our fault for not making the commitment to compete in the small-margin business of engine oils. But ask yourself - would you support your local/regional oil company if it costs you $2/qt to do it?
Posted by: tommygunn

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/04/13 05:40 PM

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


This is very similar to what most of the Euro marques do (minus the royalties of course).


That's the biggest thing, and GM shouldn't be allowed to do it. Even Porsche doesn't charge to carry A40 approval--and they charge people for everything! GM didn't charge for 4718M.

A spec should be just that--a spec. No royalty, no approval.

Maybe the fee is only there to help pay off those bailout loans? Of course, dexos is just a cash grab and not really important or particularly tough, and some people even consider it a downgrade step backwards from the free 4718M, which ST syn meets (says so on the bottle, but of course no mention of dexos)

I like the way Smitty's did it. Their dexos1 synthetic has the official GM dexos approval (royalty paid), but there's not even an API donut or ILSAC starburst! The label on the Smitty's dexos is ONLY the dexos logo with a very small SuperS logo in the corner.

Yeah API does charge fees, but they are extremely miniscule. I don't think ACEA even charges a fee at all.
Posted by: Garak

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/04/13 07:55 PM

Originally Posted By: tommygunn
A spec should be just that--a spec. No royalty, no approval.

The Europeans have approvals, even if they don't charge for them. Nonetheless, GM isn't getting rich over this. It's a way for them to make pretty accounting for recoup on R&D.

If it were me, I'd prefer the actual dexos1 oil. Oil that is equivalent to dexos1 isn't going to be any cheaper. And, it's easy to say that GM still has to provide warranty. One certainly can fight that, and probably win. I bet it won't be cheap, though. At least with a real dexos1 oil, it's not questionable.

Engine failures aren't terribly common, though. Requirement of dexos1 or equivalent is to protect the engines, and by extension, GM's liability in the matter when it comes to warranty. I doubt GM is worried about people running Synpower. They might be a little more concerned about someone running a conventional for the full OCI, at least with respect to certain applications.
Posted by: 05LGTLtd

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/05/13 07:31 AM

Gm has managed to get oil companies to put a GM trademarked spec on the front of each "Dexos" oil. It's like they are getting paid to advertise their own brand name. If they had some real foresight, they would have used a name that would have actually be identifiable to the majority of consumers as GM advertising. At least there isn't a "Heart Beat Certified" in a bowtie on each bottle. Then we could have a "Built Ford Tough" Spec, and a "Yeah, It's got a Hemi!" spec to boot...

Is part of the agreement that the Dexos spec has to be on the front of the bottle in the trademarked appearance?
Posted by: Garak

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/05/13 03:35 PM

Originally Posted By: 05LGTLtd
Gm has managed to get oil companies to put a GM trademarked spec on the front of each "Dexos" oil.

Maybe that's why it isn't the Bowtie or something like that. wink They faced enough resistance as it is.
Posted by: stchman

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/05/13 09:05 PM

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
An oil that meets dexos 1 or equivalent.

What would be a Dexos1 equivalent, just curious?


Probably an oil like Valvoline that says that it meets the requirements of Dexos 1 but isn't officially licensed? shrug


So if I mixed some oil in my garage, put it in a jug, told you that it EXCEEDED dexos, that's good enough for you?
Posted by: stchman

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/05/13 09:08 PM

All these people are blabbing about Euro spec this and bah spec that. Have you ever seen what some of these oils cost that meet these obscure European specs? Significantly MORE than Mobil 1. So SOMEBODY is making money, correct?
Posted by: Quattro Pete

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/05/13 09:26 PM

Originally Posted By: stchman
All these people are blabbing about Euro spec this and bah spec that. Have you ever seen what some of these oils cost that meet these obscure European specs? Significantly MORE than Mobil 1. So SOMEBODY is making money, correct?

Mobil1 0w-40 meets most of those "obscure European specs" yet it costs exactly the same as all other Mobil1 grades, so what's your point?
Posted by: stchman

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/05/13 09:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: stchman
All these people are blabbing about Euro spec this and bah spec that. Have you ever seen what some of these oils cost that meet these obscure European specs? Significantly MORE than Mobil 1. So SOMEBODY is making money, correct?

Mobil1 0w-40 meets most of those "obscure European specs" yet it costs exactly the same as all other Mobil1 grades, so what's your point?


What if you have a BMW M5? Apparently those cars require that 10W-60 and that stuff is expensive and hard to find.
Posted by: Quattro Pete

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/05/13 09:33 PM

I guess they assume that if you can afford an M5, then you can also afford to feed it fancy oil. Same goes for some high end Mustang versions that call for 5w-50 oil.
Posted by: crazyoildude

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/05/13 11:35 PM

yup and you can afford the new engine it needs...but the truth is most of them are leased. we see a lot of bmw's in my shop needing new engines
Posted by: TiredTrucker

Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? - 12/06/13 06:43 AM

Originally Posted By: stchman


So if I mixed some oil in my garage, put it in a jug, told you that it EXCEEDED dexos, that's good enough for you?


All depends. Put yourself under the regulations of the Federal Trade Commission, that would include fines and prison time, get yourself some high ticket liability insurance coverage, and put your "home brew" under scrutiny of the market place, and then, maybe, I might be more inclined to take your word that it meets or exceeds the spec.

You glibly throw out a ridiculous scenario that is farcical on its face to try and make a point.