GC and Valve Train Clatter. (Killing my engine?)

[DevilDisco]

I think my vehilce may be one that does not like GC. I have about 1600 miles on GC in my '04 Land Rover Discovery and the Valve Train Clatter worries, me. The last time it sounded this bad the dealer said it was a quart low and to change the oil ever 3k miles. Well I keep checking the oil and according to the dipstick it is full, and then some.
When I start the engine in the morning there isn't much if any clatter at idle. On previous oils it would tap, tap, tap, on start up and settle down within a mile or two of driving. With GC every time I get the gas I hear tap, tap, tap matching the engine speed until its drowned out by the exhaust, above 2k RPM's, not sure if it's gone at that point or if its just coverd up by the exhaust.
No matter how long I've been driving when I come to a stoplight and then accelerate it tap, tap, taps again until I reach 2k RPM's and then it's pretty quiet. I could turn the radio up then I don't hear it but that doesn't sit well with me. I just took a 358mile trip and when ever I would accelerate I could hear the clatter. Cursing I could not detect anything only when accelerating and an occasional tap at idle.
I went and bought some Lucas Synthetic Oil Stabilizer but have not added it yet because I'd have to drain a quart. I know some time today I will probably either drain a quart or dump it all and use the Lucas.
When I added GC. I drained the engine until there was no oil dripping from the plug. Replaced the oil filter with a K&N oil filter and added 6 1/2 qts of GC.
The engine sounded pretty good for the first couple hunderd miles and then while I was listening one day. I heard the clatter start again.
Any thoughts? Should I dump it or is this normal with GC?

 

[dickwells]

First you need to assure that the noise is not due to an exhaust leak at the manifold, they have a habit of sounding very similar to what you describe.

 

[INDYMAC]

This doesn't sound oil related from your history on the vehicle. How long has it been since your valves were adjusted? Also, your valve chain tensioner may need replaced.

 

[INDYMAC]

I meant to say timing chain tensioner, if that is what is making the noise.

 

[DevilDisco]

Vehicle has a little over 65K. The vavles have never been adjusted that I know of. As for a leak at the manifold. I understand that it is normally a ticking sound. I went to the mechanic and the ticking sound is appearantly the belts. I'll have to double check to see when they are due for replacement.
The vehicle just didn't sound healty. When I would first drive the vehicle in the morning and accelerated it sounded like a bag of muted jingle bells. It began to take longer and longer for the sound to go away. Normally by the time I get to work its gone but not with this oil.
I dumped it during lunch, for peace of mind. Put in a quart of Lucas and filled it with Shell 10W40. That shut the noise right down. Not a single tap. I've started it twice so far after I have dumped the GC and it sounds normal, like a big machine. The tick is still there but I'll check the bolts on the manifold, and keep an eye on the belt.
Don't know if any wear occured, and I didn't keep a sample. On the good side the mechanic said that he'd never seen oil that clean. They started it up to check the oil level and had to dump out a quart before they put the Lucas in. Came out as it went in. Even the GC was not that dirty when it came out. I'd checked the oil level a few time with the GC. It did take a while to darken and was a light caramel color on the napkin and still barely visible on the dipstick, which is also like new. I think the Auto-Rx did the job the first time around, so I'll stick with the Maint dose. I really wanted GC to work but it was too noisey.
The vehicle did seem more peppy with the GC, but that could have just been a clean filter and MAF.

 

[glenncof]

Sounds like two different problems. The tapping at acceleration sounds like pre-detonation (pinging). Do you use high octane ? My old RR needed 91 octane, I don't know about Disco's. Also try different brand. I also had occasional cladder (like a vaccuum controlled metal plate)but not valve train. I had ticking at idle once on RR and did several short OCI to clean it up and it went away.

On a 1997 Tahoe 130K miles, I had valve noise with Mobil 7500 5W30 for 20 seconds after cold start driving. I think the stuff was too thin. Maybe the 0W30 is too thin if high mileage.

 

[DevilDisco]

I only use Premium. That's what the manual says to use so I don't even mess around with that. I also use Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubrucant. It may be over kill but it's supposed to help keep the carbon in check. I use it every tank, (bought a gallon) I also just had the 60k tune up. Plugs, Wires, all fluids. The tick does not seem to be interal, either belts or exhaust. I can live with the tick. I can't hear it inside the cabin even though I know its there. I hear it pretty good when I'm going throught a drive through or backing into the garage with the window down.
I think the 0w30 was to thin. The 40 weight makes it sound better. Maybe a double applicaiton of Auto-Rx would help.

 

[sprintman]

Same with my Mazda. Dumped the 10W30 and put in 5W40 and no more lifter banging. Much quiter o'all as well.

 

[DevilDisco]

Started up the Rover this morning. Not a single tap but it did feel sluggish. I can already see my gas mileage going down just from the drive to work. The vehicle has only had 10w30/5w30 to this point. I think I'll take it in and have it looked at. I don't want the 10w40 and Lucas to be a band aid fix. I want a healthy engine. The 30 weight only tapped on start up. The GC tapped all the time.

 

[ccdhowell]

My '02 Disco didn't like GC either. But it didn't make any unusual noises, just a not-so-stellar UOA. I have decided that these engines like heavy oils, Many Rover guys run 20w50 with good results. I'm running Pentosynth 5w40 at the moment, and have my last batch of Lubro Moly 0w40HD on deck for replacement in about 600 miles. The Pentosynth seemed to work well, but I can't UOA it well this time. I was short Pentosynth on initial fill so I added 1.5 quarts Redline 5w40, messess up a UOA, at least for a look at the Pentosynth. You might try a nice 10w40 synth without the Lucas and see what happens. As for me, I've never been a fan of Lucas. Also, I just thought of this, are you using the Land Rover supplied Fuel System Conditioner in the gas tank with every oil change. LR had exhaust valve sticking problems with these engines and developed a fuel treatment. Your dealer probably put some in at the 60,000 service, at least mine does at every service interval. It's kinda pricey, but I use it as insurance and run a tank every oil change. You may be hearing the pre-seizing sounds of all of your exhaust valves on the verge of sticking in the head. Go by the dealer and pick-up some Fuel System Conditioner.

 

[DevilDisco]

Thought the Lucas would have been enough to keep the carbon build up at bay but it has had regular service from the dealer . I'm actually hearing two noises from inside the car and a third ticking noise i can only hear from outside. Calling dealer tomorrow. Something just doesn't sound right in there. My engine was bad sounded like starup clatter all the time with oil at correct level.

 

[Lonnie]

Is this the push-rod V8? Does removing one spark plug wire at a time (and grounding it) change the noise. If you remove the valve cover and slide a feeler gauge between the valve and the rocker, one at a time change the noise? When you put a drop of very lite oil, WD-40 at each exhaust header where it attaches the cylinder head bubble off at the same rate when the engine is completely warmed up? When you spray WD-40 around the edges of the intake maniforld with the engine idling as slow as possible change the tone of the engine or the rpm? Sorry about all the questions, just though I'd ask. Pass all these tests and you can move on to a compresion test, tighten the intake an exhaust manifold bolts (when cold). Then you can say oh hecky darn and go have a beer and watch a football game or get out the timing light and blame the timing chain.

 

[DevilDisco]

Poked around the engine bay last night noise appears to be internal. Taking it to the dealear, its still under warranty.

 

[INDYMAC]

I still think a valve adjustment may cure the ills. The timing chain tensioner should be replaced as well. Good luck.

 

[DevilDisco]

So why is it that I didn't hear all this racket with 5w30 the dealer used which I think was Penzoil or Castrol GTX 10w30 or Shell 5w30.

What is it that GC did that amplified the noise?

The 10w40 even with Lucas has some tap as well?

I'm wondering what went wrong here?

 

[DevilDisco]

Just to be fair. I like GC. I think it has given me the best mileage so far on a tank of gas for some strange reason. The gas needle moved rather slowly and it looked like it got me at least 30 to 40 miles more on a tank of gas. Despite the noise the engine felt peppier. The day after I changed to GC. I didn't hear a tap at idle but when I first drove off I got clatter, for there it just got progressively louder until I could hear it all the time.

 

[INDYMAC]

I don't pretend to know anything about the '04 Disco. But I have realized that some oils are better than others at quieting valvetrain noise. My experience with this noise is on my '04 S2000. Since new, my car would produce valve flutter noises for up to a minute on cold start-up with the OEM oil fill. Since then, I have tinkered with several different brands of oil that produced various degrees of success in eliminating these valvetrain noises on start-up.

Oils that virtually eliminated noise on start-up:
AMSOIL XL 7500 10W30 SL
Maxlife synthetic 10W30 SL
Pennzoil Platinum 10W30 SM (EOP)
Castrol Syntec 0W30 SL (GC gold)
Oils that allowed the noise to return:
Pennzoil Platinum 10W30 SM (New Formula)
Maxlife Synthetic 10W30 SM

My current fill is GC gold. Since I've only had it in the car for 2K miles, I don't have a UOA yet. But I am very pleased with how it is performing in my S2000.

When and if the valvetrain noise returns, I will have the valves adjusted. It's not very expensive (some say it's pretty easy to do yourself), and it will restore power to the vehicle as well.

 

[gedcruise]

You know, that is strange. Since GC is a relatively thick oil at most ambient temps, it should quiet things down.
I never understood the thing about oil and engine noise until I put GC in my '99 Accord.
Instant quiet. The instant quiet has lasted 2000 miles, as well, since GC doesn't shear much. OTOH, the instant 5% or so reduction in fuel economy will last as well, since GC is, and will remain, a relatively thick oil.

 

[DevilDisco]

That is so strange. The idle quieted down and my mileage seemed to go up by 2mpg. It could be the tap was always there and I never paid attention until I put in GC, but I drive with the radio off from time to time just to listen to the engine and I don't recall hearing it. I'm pretty sure all the oils were sealed, when I bought them. Could have been the recent MAF and air filter cleaning. Engine seemed to have a lot more pep than with the current 40 weight. I think I'd rather have a 30 weight but it looks like Syntec 20W50 is what my engine needs even if it will kill the cats. Someone on the another board said they would rather replace cats than an engine, me too. The engine design is from a '62 Buick Skylark. Appearantly the engine loves zinc something it seems most oils don't have these days. So how do you get zinc protection with no zinc?