What usually causes unwanted current flow anywhere in a car is a poor ground. I am still wondering how the electric cooling fans on this car are grounded.
Radiator leak that won't go away...Please help.
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What usually causes unwanted current flow anywhere in a car is a poor ground. I am still wondering how the electric cooling fans on this car are grounded.
most cooling fans are grounded by the wire harness, with a ancillary ground shooting off the narness somewhere in the engine bay.
heres the other thing. antifreze and water are poor conductors of electricity. they are designed this way to fight electrolisys.
heres the other thing. antifreze and water are poor conductors of electricity. they are designed this way to fight electrolisys.
A stock electric cooling fan, yes. An aftermarket electric cooling fan added to a car that came with a mechanical clutch fan, as is the case for the car that is the subject of this thread? No telling where that's grounded without looking. ----, someone could've grounded it to the radiator, either intentionally or not.
The results of a test I just did, where I connected a 12V power supply in series with an ammeter and checked how much current would flow through a solution:
Coolant/tap water 50/50 mix: 60mA
Salt/tap water: 600mA
Tap water: 9mA
A coolant/water mix is clearly more conductive than tap water alone.
Incidentally, when I had the wires in the coolant/water mix a lot of electrolysis was taking place, judging by the bubbles coming off the wire.
youre not suppose to use tap water. certainly not salty tap water. only distilled. also the probes were probably close together. make them a few feet apart like you would see between an engine and a radiator, and youre amperage will drop to nothing. NOTHING!
everyone knows electrolisys is depdant on the distance between the anode and cathode suspended in solution.
everyone knows electrolisys is depdant on the distance between the anode and cathode suspended in solution.
youre not suppose to use tap water. certainly not salty tap water. only distilled. also the probes were probably close together. make them a few feet apart like you would see between an engine and a radiator, and youre amperage will drop to nothing. NOTHING!
everyone knows electrolisys is depdant on the distance between the anode and cathode suspended in solution.
everyone knows electrolisys is depdant on the distance between the anode and cathode suspended in solution.
Still, tap water is used in cooling systems.
The point of this test was to compare the conductivity of salt water with coolant with plain tap water.
It will not drop to nothing. There still will be some current flow, no matter how small. It will cause corrosion.
BTW. The radiator and engine in most cars is about a foot apart. Not a few feet.
It's also dependent upon the surface area of the anode and cathode--more surface area, more current flow... Rest assured that the metal parts in a cooling system are *much* larger than my wires. My wires have a surface area of maybe a square inch. That radiator has a surface area of hundreds of square inches...something about efficient heat transfer or something like that...ditto for that heater core...
Did find it interesting that 50/50 coolant/tap water has only 10 times the resistance of salt water...
By the way, I measured 1.5mA between the battery positive terminal and a probe dropped into the coolant tank on my 2006 Saab 93. Bear in mind that it takes 1.5mA 40 hours to do the damage that 60mA does in one hour...
O.K. A few things...
Yes...the rad is still leaking...I have not changed the coolant or had the rad repaired yet. It is supposed to go in soon. It is leaking at the lower tranny line recess area. Not inside the fitting...actually around the fittin on the flat area of the rad. tank. Previously it had been leaking from the upper tranny line recess just like the lower...on the flat side of the recess around the fitting. The top one had been repaired 2 times now and is showing a slight sign of leaking but it is so small...the patch is apparently holding for the most part but the lower one is pretty rough now. I am adding about a 1/2 a jug of distilled water every two days now....so yes the leaking is getting bigger.
Brianl703...The Electric fan is a Flex-A-Lite:
http://www.flex-a-lite.com/auto/html/27inch-electric.html
It is grounded to the inside passenger fender near the battery. There is nothing fan related touching the radiator. I have replaced all the connections and double/triple checked my work. It has been on the car for about 3-4 years now. I installed just how they instructed to do it...and the shop has inspected the install and said nothing was out of the ordinary. Could grounding it on the fender be causing it to run through the body and hit the radiator at the A/C condensor brackets? (See below for deatils....)
The Radiator cap is a Rad Cap's with sacrificial anode rated at only 7lbs. Stock rad cap is like 12 lbs I think. I changed it to the lesser 7 lbs cap because the shop wanted to rule out any possible problem with the rad. cap not venting the pressure to the overflow tank.
Possible HEAD GASKET problem idea:
I have had the coolant tested for exhaust gases by two different shops and they found no evidence of exhaust gas in the fluid....and no...I have not had a cylinder pressure check done. I mean...I change my own oil in a pan and I never see anything else but oil coming out. The radiator fluid has always remained green and has NEVER been any other color but green. If I was getting a head gasket leak...wouldn't I have had a change in coolant color?
I also have a sacrifical annode on the end of the radiator car...its called a Rad Cap. It is showing signs of being eaten but it seems to have slowed and remains unchanged right now.
I had been using the Prestone 50/50 pre mix All Makes All Models 150,000 Exteneded service green stuff. I will be trying Zerex if I can find it...if not the rad. shop used Peak Original green. We are not under any circumstances going to put anything with the name Prestone on it back in my car...EVER.
My radiator is completely isolated from the radiator shelf except for the metal trans lines. I have been considering getting a seperate tranny cooler lately. Oh yeah...and I noticed the rad it is touching the metal brackets behind it that are holding the A/C condensor. Because its so wide...it rests against the metal brackets some. Its not a lot but I would be willing to bet that it shouldn't touching it right? I have talked to a few shops and they didn't think that would really make a huge difference. I used a little bit of weather stripping foam to keep it away from the metal on metal contact but it wears through. Could this be the cause?
Again...the shop put the car on a chassis dyno and ran the car like it was on the street and tested the coolant for electricity. They did not find any electricity in the coolant...and what ever little bit they found ended up going under a negitive rating once all the accessories were turned on...example...radio...lights...headlights...brke lights...using the windows. They also checked every part of the wiring harness in the front part of the engine bay by the headlights and around the rad. shelf. They also checked the ABS system...they founf nothing out of the ordinary. They also checked how I installed my fina and it was exactly how Flex-A-Lite instructed to do it.
Look you guys...I am willing to try anything. If this doesn't work I am going to buy a Volkswagon TDI diesel engine'd car and go get a waste veggie oil conversion.
Yes...the rad is still leaking...I have not changed the coolant or had the rad repaired yet. It is supposed to go in soon. It is leaking at the lower tranny line recess area. Not inside the fitting...actually around the fittin on the flat area of the rad. tank. Previously it had been leaking from the upper tranny line recess just like the lower...on the flat side of the recess around the fitting. The top one had been repaired 2 times now and is showing a slight sign of leaking but it is so small...the patch is apparently holding for the most part but the lower one is pretty rough now. I am adding about a 1/2 a jug of distilled water every two days now....so yes the leaking is getting bigger.
Brianl703...The Electric fan is a Flex-A-Lite:
http://www.flex-a-lite.com/auto/html/27inch-electric.html
It is grounded to the inside passenger fender near the battery. There is nothing fan related touching the radiator. I have replaced all the connections and double/triple checked my work. It has been on the car for about 3-4 years now. I installed just how they instructed to do it...and the shop has inspected the install and said nothing was out of the ordinary. Could grounding it on the fender be causing it to run through the body and hit the radiator at the A/C condensor brackets? (See below for deatils....)
The Radiator cap is a Rad Cap's with sacrificial anode rated at only 7lbs. Stock rad cap is like 12 lbs I think. I changed it to the lesser 7 lbs cap because the shop wanted to rule out any possible problem with the rad. cap not venting the pressure to the overflow tank.
Possible HEAD GASKET problem idea:
I have had the coolant tested for exhaust gases by two different shops and they found no evidence of exhaust gas in the fluid....and no...I have not had a cylinder pressure check done. I mean...I change my own oil in a pan and I never see anything else but oil coming out. The radiator fluid has always remained green and has NEVER been any other color but green. If I was getting a head gasket leak...wouldn't I have had a change in coolant color?
I also have a sacrifical annode on the end of the radiator car...its called a Rad Cap. It is showing signs of being eaten but it seems to have slowed and remains unchanged right now.
I had been using the Prestone 50/50 pre mix All Makes All Models 150,000 Exteneded service green stuff. I will be trying Zerex if I can find it...if not the rad. shop used Peak Original green. We are not under any circumstances going to put anything with the name Prestone on it back in my car...EVER.
My radiator is completely isolated from the radiator shelf except for the metal trans lines. I have been considering getting a seperate tranny cooler lately. Oh yeah...and I noticed the rad it is touching the metal brackets behind it that are holding the A/C condensor. Because its so wide...it rests against the metal brackets some. Its not a lot but I would be willing to bet that it shouldn't touching it right? I have talked to a few shops and they didn't think that would really make a huge difference. I used a little bit of weather stripping foam to keep it away from the metal on metal contact but it wears through. Could this be the cause?
Again...the shop put the car on a chassis dyno and ran the car like it was on the street and tested the coolant for electricity. They did not find any electricity in the coolant...and what ever little bit they found ended up going under a negitive rating once all the accessories were turned on...example...radio...lights...headlights...brke lights...using the windows. They also checked every part of the wiring harness in the front part of the engine bay by the headlights and around the rad. shelf. They also checked the ABS system...they founf nothing out of the ordinary. They also checked how I installed my fina and it was exactly how Flex-A-Lite instructed to do it.
Look you guys...I am willing to try anything. If this doesn't work I am going to buy a Volkswagon TDI diesel engine'd car and go get a waste veggie oil conversion.
This is the rad cap by the way...sorry I meant to post it in the post above...
http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Produ...0001652/c-10101
http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Produ...0001652/c-10101
Have you done a voltage check on the coolant? Take off the cap, start the car, let it run, measure voltage from the battery -ve and the +ve probe held in the coolant. If the fans not running, make it run (or make it stop) and see if theres a difference in voltage reading. If there is, your fan is contributing to your problems.
Personally, I would ground the fan to the same location the battery is grounded. Either the battery itself, or to the alternator bracket (being a GM, thats the primary ground point for the battery).
Alex.
Personally, I would ground the fan to the same location the battery is grounded. Either the battery itself, or to the alternator bracket (being a GM, thats the primary ground point for the battery).
Alex.
Yes...the coolant has been tested for electricity by the shop...they tested it on a chassis dyno.
John,
Speedway Gas stocks Zerex green in Michigan. Try them out. Price is around $10, which isn't too far off what you pay at Autozone, etc..
Speedway Gas stocks Zerex green in Michigan. Try them out. Price is around $10, which isn't too far off what you pay at Autozone, etc..
O.K. The rad. shop is putting in Peak traditional green. I think I am going to do a flush at my house and put Zerex in instead. Not that I don't trust what they use because they told me that's all they ever use. They use it in Dex-Cool swaps...which they do all the time...everyday practially...they swap Dex Cool out and swap in traditional green. I am 100% positive what they are using is traditional green. Previously when they did it they used traditional green...but they apparently didn't top off the system enough because even though the rad. was full...the resivor was totally empty pretty much...so I brought it home and topped it off witht hat Prestone junk. Well...a week later...it started leaking again. Do I blame it on the Prestone? Do I blame the rad. shop for not fixing it good enough? I mean...----. I am lost on this one...I am constantly questioning everything with this car.
The Caprice holds A lOT of fluid...so its easy to think you have put 2-3 jugs in and think its full...I rev out the engine a tiny bit to kick up the water pump a bit...then I go check the level...ussually...after the fan kicks off...the fluid will then come to a resting point again...that's when I let it sit and watch for bubbles. Once I stop seeing bubbles I sqeeze the top hose a bit to make sure it hot and then top it off...I do this a couple of times...once the rad sits full with no bubbles and the level of luid doesn't lower at all after a rev and if steam is floating out of the fill spout...I consider the system full at this point. I put the cap on and top of the resivor.
BTW...I just want to say...after all the forums I have been to discussing this problem...this forum is by far been the most helpful. I am really glad that you guys decided to come in here and light up with thread with info and ideas...debate over it if you will...but something good has to come out of this or I just will have to sell the car. I can't keep going back and having the rad shop keep fixing it...I don't feel that it is their fault...the rad is soild. Maybe the tanks aren't that great...they were after all used from a salvage yard...but I really feel that this is a chemical problem and the solder that is being used is currently being eaten away because the coolant is not protecting it. This is just my gut talking but also my crossed fingers praying that a solution will come out of all this.
Hey there Alex...I am just thinking out loud here so feel free to chim in...
I really read through this entire article. My 1993 Caprice has cast iron heads and brass/copper heater core and radiator. I really feel that if this was the issue...which has also been suggested by a mechanic at one time...I feel that after all the rads I have replaced... I should've gone through at least a couple of heater cores by now. I haven't even replaced the original yet.
To me...seeing that this article was written in Aug 1998...I would imagine that the later year cars/trucks would have had aluminum rads and heater cores. This article may have been written for the cars being produced at that time with aluminum heater cores and rad cores.
I know for a fact...after speaking with George Bates who is Caprice rebuilder near Los Angeles...he said that 1993 was the cut off for when Dex Cool was used in the Caprice. Starting in 1994-1996...the Caprice was outfitted with aluminum heater cores and radiators with aluminum cores and plastic tanks....they also had Dex-Cool. Dex Cool was designed to be used with the 1994-1996 Caprices. It was not meant to be used in a 1993 or prior. Since what I have learned from this website...I beleive I have been putting in a Dex Clone made by Prestone...which from what I have read...doesn't have any properties in it that protect lead solder in repaired brass/copper radiator applications. This is my gut feeling on this.
I do sincerely wish this was the problem...I would pray for it actually...because then I could just tear the heads off...have them rebuilt...gasket match all the ports....install a new cam and roller lifters and top it off with the Edlebrock intake I have had laying around my house for the last two years...but since know for a fact that the heater core and rad is brass/coppper...and I haven't gone through any heater cores at all...I just don't think that this is the problem. The heater core has never been repaired
like the rad has been...so therefore...the solder has not been eaten away for it to leak...hence there is no problem with the heater core. Right now...I lay the blame on the old tanks, the lead solder being used and most of all...the rad. fluid I have been using since the first day I ever replaced thef luid in this car...the fluid is the only constant.
I have also had the fluid tested 3 different times and they didn't find any evidence of exhaust gas in the fluid.
Anyway man,...after I really really thought about it...this is what I came up with. maybe I am way off but feel free to chime in with what ever idea you may have...it is a highly accurate concept but I think my model year may not fall within the context of this article.
Let me know what you think.
Thanks a mill...
JB
This?
http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peakanti.html
How exactly did the shop that tested the coolant for electricity do it? I would have measured the voltage between the radiator and the battery negative terminal as well as between the radiator and the alternator case.
I believe. They said they get it in huge 55 gallon drums. They assured me that it is true pure traditional green.
The rad shop did not test the car...these guys did...
http://www.westechauto.com/
This is a pro shop...that's why I took it there. All I know is that they put it on a chassis dyno and started going through the entire front end...headlights...anything near the radiator shelf. He checked how my fan is hooked up...he checked it running on the dyno and had some body turning all the accessories on and off and I am positive he checked the fluid the right way. He's just not some old guy that owns a little old shop...he's brillant and I have only known people to think ghighly of him....again...that's why I took it there...when regular mom and pop shop copuldn't figure it out...I took it to him.
Really....All you have to do is punch any of these in and do a little reading...Norm Brandes is the engine builder for all of these cars:
Camaro 302 SS
Hurst Hauler Trans Am
Gold Rush Trans Am
World's Fastest Plymouth Prowler
He's also a fan of AMC's...
http://www.jpmagazine.com/techarticles/engine/154_0412_amc_v_8_engine/index.html
...or you can just punch his name into GOOGLE and find out about him...he's a genius and that's why its been so hard on us...he has no idea why this car keeps crapping out rads. I showed him this thread...he may even respond himself...I totally trust him...and he equally finds this as bizarre as the rest of us.
John, just to satisfy our curiosity ;-) and yours, take your own voltmeter and measure. You've got nothing to lose at the point by doing so, and we can debate the numbers, or nod in agreement with the other shop. And make sure you do it with your fan both running and not.
Further comments from me today will just be a rant about todays service industry...
Alex.
Further comments from me today will just be a rant about todays service industry...
Alex.
As a member of the frequent radiator replacers club, this thread has been a real eye opener. As a result of what i learned here, i am draining my Prestone all makes/models and refilling with texaco green and distilled. i can't say for sure that the prestone is the cause of my radiator leaks, but at least i can eliminate one variable.
Thanks John for starting this thread. Thanks also to those people that posted responses and links.
Thanks John for starting this thread. Thanks also to those people that posted responses and links.
Hey Frank...thanks for posting up...feel free to share your experience with Prestone in this thread...I think its important. That goes for anybody that might have had problems with Prestone...I think it important to grow the thread with comments from people that may have also be having this problem.
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