Radiator leak that won't go away...Please help.

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Hello. I have a severe rad. problem that I can't find any answers for. After reading some posts on the forum I am wondering if the fluid I am using is to blame. Everytime I have refilled the rad. after repair I have used Prestone "Ready-to-Use 50/50 mix" green every single time. I am wondering if I am not using the right kind of fluid.

I have a 1993 Caprice with a 350 that develops a radiator leak in every radiator that it has ever had.

In the course of 7 years: I have had 2 brass/copper 2 row, 2 aluminum w/ plastic tank 2 row, 1 Howe Racing all aluminum 2 row radiator and now a custom 3 row brass/copper. All rads have had in tank coolers for trans and oil fluids.

Yes guys...I have gone through 6 radiators in 7 years. The plastic tank ones have seemed to last the longest...about a year and a 1/2 on each. The original brass/copper 2 row went out in the first 9 months of ownership...the 2nd lasted about a year...the Howe Racing Rad. lastest only 9 months and started leaking at the top three tubes on the pass. side. Then I sent it back to have them fix it...again it only lasted 3 weeks and started leaking again. I sent it back and they sent me my money back. I then went and had a local shop build me a 3 core out of brass/copper. This rad now has been fixed 3 times in a row and has started leaking after only 3 weeks each time. This particular 3 row rad starts leaking right around the threaded trans. cooler lines recess. Without fail...in the exact same area...on the pass. side...it seems to be eating out the lead solder used to repair the pin hole leaks.

I don't have anywhere to turn guys. I have spent almost 1000 dollars on new rads and fluid and shop fees in trying to determine what is causing this problem. I need someone who knows cooling systems inside and out.

I also installed a sacrifical annode rad cap and it is showing signs of being eaten...but when the shop I took it too put it on a dyno and ran the car up in RPM's...that didn't find any electricity in the fluid at all. They are completely boggled by this.

BTW...this isn't just an ordinary shop...this is a shop that is owned by a man who has built some very wicked cars...some specifically for GM and Chrysler both. He is dumbfounded by the problem and for the life of him...he can't figure it out. I don't want to get rid of the car but at this rate...I don't seem to have any other choice anymore. I can't keep going on like this.

The only thing that is not stock under the hood is a dual electic fan that I have installed by Flex-A-Lite. It has never had an over heating problem and it has a 190* T-Stat. I have the fans kick on at about 200*-210*.

The 1994-1996 Caprice's had aluminum heater cores and came from the factory with Dex-Cool. My 1993 Caprice has a brass and copper heater core from the factory and it came with green from the factory. Through all of this nonsense the heater core has never failed. If it was true electrolysis ...shouldn't the heater core have failed too?

I have had some electrical issues...cruise control has never worked...3rd brake light has never worked...the horn buttons don't work...the power antenna doesn't go up and down, front side turning markers don't turn on when directionals are used.

The one thing that is glaring to me is the mechanical rpm gauge flickers from time to time. Sometimes it actually slams to the bottom of the gauge and jumps back up to the proper point again. I am wondering if some kind of electricity is getting from the rad area and jumping down the metal trans cooler lines and hitting the trans. there by causing some kind of glitch on the rpm needle.

I am sorry that this post is so long but guys...I am desperate...

Thanks for any and all input.

JBLTZ
 
i would check all the body grounds and add 1 to the rad.
sounds like electrolysis.
since you have electrical gremlins a ground issue seems likely.
 
I am not sure why this thread was moved...my primary question was if I was using the wrong fluid and therefore I still feel it belongs in the fluid section. I may have filled up the post with mechanical info but that is to provide a background on the problem...I primarily wanted to talk about the fluid.
 
Quote:


i would check all the body grounds and add 1 to the rad.
sounds like electrolysis.
since you have electrical gremlins a ground issue seems likely.




I have replaced all the body to engine straps and all the body to frame straps. Still the problems has happened over and over again...the only constant is that I have been using the same fluid over and over again...the Prestone 150,000 Extended Life fluid. After reading the information I have found on here...I believe that the Prestone is the culprit because I have always used that same brand and same version of that fluid...I never knew that it was a DexClone. The reason I was using it was because it was "green" and I thought it was the same green as it ever was...turns out I was wrong. I thought it was just normal green or I would've never even used the junk.

As it was explained to me by George bates himself...Caprice Guru who rebuilds Caprices for the police department in California...he said that Dex-Cool's not meant for brass/copper rad's and heater cores. If there is an electrical problem...as slight as it may be...a coolant that is similar to Dex-Cool... like this Prestone Extended life stuff apparently is...it will promote electrolysis and that's probably why it keeps grounding out on the rad. Traditional green does not promote electrolysis because it does not have the same chemical breakdown that a Dex-Cool type fluid does.

This is why I asked this question in the fluid section...I wanted to talk about fluid. I would appreciate that it were moved back to the fluid section.
 
In my opinion, you should be using conventional green in your cooling system. I'm tempted to recommend installing an aluminum radiator with modern coolants, but you have the heater core to worry about. Some good info can be found in these threads:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3828/is_200408/ai_n9453107/pg_4

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...ge=0#Post943911

Of course, this is assuming you don't have an electrolysis problem. Electrolysis should be diagnosable with a home multimeter, but I'm not sure how or what the threshhold voltage is.

As an owner of a fine 91 Mercury Marquis, I also take offense to unneccesary disparagement.
 
I don't know how the coolant issue plays out in this, but I've ended up having to purchase housebrand coolants to get 'old green' since I don't want to risk that allmakes stuff thats so prelevant and have had my share of leaking rads over the past 7 years.

Is your rad isolated from the rad cradle and top plate with rubber isolators? If not, I'd look to isolate the rad first before grounding anything. Also check that the upper isolators are not getting pushed away, or compressed so much that the top plate ends up pressing somewhere on the rad itself.

Just my general rad observations: They don't make them like they used to. Comparing a circa 1983 rad with a 2001 rad the new rad is made of thinner materials, a lot flimsier in general. The old rad is solid, the 'new' rad tends to sag/twist/move. (1983 rad I pulled two months ago out of one of my cars, the 2001 rad came out of my daily driver and lasted all of 5 years.) I've also had my share of leaking fittings with newer cu/brass rads. I've had to pull the rad out of my truck three times to repair it (it was installed in 2003) I'm going to have to pull it again soon for a pinhole leak in a cross tube. Right now, both cars have al/plastic rads, the older car becuase the cu475 3 row cu/brass has been superceded with it. (its an SPI-Made in China! So much for buying from a Canadian Rad manufacturer. Modine is also al/plastic even though the catalogs still list it as cu/brass, makes me wonder if its also made in China).

Why do I suspect the root of the problem is the source of the materials for our rads? No doubt the outsourced materials are not as refined and have some impurities that don't go well with cu/brass/coolant/heat/solder.

Alex.
 
John,

Have you read the current thread by Kestas about which fluid for copper radiators? I posted three links to some "somewhat light" reading material.

The one article by Larry Carly says "One ACDelco spokesman said they do not recommend Dex-Cool for older vehicles with all-iron engines and copper/brass radiators".

But, the article doesn't say why.

Sounds like you have nothing to lose by going back to the conventional green fluid.

Good luck.....and, if you are to enjoy getting help here, it's not a bad idea to develop just a slightly thicker skin. There's always a few comments made that should just be ignored. Opinions....everybody has one. Referring to people as clowns and jerks is not the way to invite others to help you.

I hope you find your answer. Also, I don't think the Prestone Green became an "OAT" type coolant until about three years ago +/-. Before then, it was the traditional silicate formula. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
 
O.K. thanks a lot for the imput guys. I will read those few threads you posted Kestas and then come back and post again if I need to.

Yes I am going back to the traditional green fluid which is what I thought I had when I was buying that other garbage. At this point I would think it will after everything I have read now after visiting this site.

I am sorry about the conflict...I did not ask for that...but it was thrust upon me. I didn't come in to this forum and start insulting people then expect everyone to just help me. I asked for help and someone else insulted me right clear out of the blue. I didn't do anything except log on and ask for some help with a severe problem I have been having for some time. I found this site very imformative and that's why I decided to apply and log on. I didn't start off my post with "Hey come and make fun of me." If I did something wrong here other than defend myself then the moderators will let me know but I also hope they will let the other person know that his actions are ultimately my provocation and that his actions aren't going to be tolerated either.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...cial%26hs%3DldN
 
"We have in previous articles pointed out that today's coolant inhibitor packages contain a small amount of copper-brass protection, but may provide little protection if a radiator is made with high-lead solder."

This is the issue...everytime my current rad. gets fixed the lead that its fixed with gets eaten away from the same exact spot...every single time...
 
What kind of fluid is 100% tradiational green? Don't I need the older Silicate kind? The Silicate acts as the ground and doesn't allow it to hit the rad...right?
 
Quote:


... everytime my current rad. gets fixed the lead that its fixed with gets eaten away from the same exact spot...every single time...


Perhaps you can ask the shop to fix the radiator with lead-free solder.
 
John,

Go to the Zerex site to see "conventional" silicate antifreeze, along with their Dex clone, and G05. I believe Texaco/Havoline also has the 3 basic types. Peak (Old World Industries) seems to have a hodge podge of all kinds of mixes.

Today's "conventional" coolants are low silicate vs. the high silicate of yesteryear (no longer available?).

Color means nothing. John Deere's version of G05 is green.

Ford markets a conventional fluid and I have seen a generic at Tractor Supply (TSC).
 
Quote:


John,

Go to the Zerex site to see "conventional" silicate antifreeze, along with their Dex clone, and G05. I believe Texaco/Havoline also has the 3 basic types. Peak (Old World Industries) seems to have a hodge podge of all kinds of mixes.

Today's "conventional" coolants are low silicate vs. the high silicate of yesteryear (no longer available?).

Color means nothing. John Deere's version of G05 is green.

Ford markets a conventional fluid and I have seen a generic at Tractor Supply (TSC).




Exactly...I thought the Prestone was traditional green becasue...well..I don't know...becasue it was freakin' green!!! I mean...who would've thought that Prestone would've made a version of green fluid that really wasn't tradiational green! Did they do it on purpose to confuse people??? LOL...If this is the ultimate reason I am going to look into suing Prestone for false advertisement. I mean...it says any make and any model and yet it didn't work for my car...go figure.

yes...I saw the Zerex website and I am going to get some of that stuff and have the shop use that instead. They use Peak and they filled it up for me before and it was fine...then I noticed the over fill tank was a bit low so I added some of that Prestone I had and "volla" it started leaking again in a few days...so I thought the rad went bad again...turned out it was probably the fluid!

This whole thing has been very very frusterating. I pray that my problems will be over with the new rad fix and the system fluch and fill. They are doing it for me free cause they feel bad for me. I feel bad for myself.
pat2.gif


The sad truth is that I didn't know that this Prestone stuff was a DexClone...I thought it was just plain old green. It sucks...Prestone basically has been false advertising that as original and I am mad as heck about it.
 
Quote:


Quote:


... everytime my current rad. gets fixed the lead that its fixed with gets eaten away from the same exact spot...every single time...


Perhaps you can ask the shop to fix the radiator with lead-free solder.




Yes...I am going to if they have some...its just antoher attempt to try something else! When they fixed it before they just did it from the outside...this time he wants to go in from the inside and fix it from the inside out.
 
Oh...and one last thing...the tanks that he used are from the 1980's. He could not find a large core brass copper tanks for me. They aren't made anymore...so he had to get used tanks in good condition and use them on a 3 core.

I had the extra wide 2 core aluminum from Howe Racing Radiators in MI. Man that rad was bad ----...I loved it...but it too took a duece on me. The owner was really P'd off at me becasue I thought the rad. was junk...turns out I was the moron who probably put the wrong kind of fluid in it! ----...I feel bad because that Howe Rad was pretty awesome. I loved and it looked so nice.
 
"Traditional Green" is hard to come by these days... and hard to even define exactly what "traditional green" IS anymore. As a former John Deere mechanic, I was under the impression that I've been running 'traditional green' John Deere coolant in all my vehicles for years- turns out it's G05... which has essentially a mix of Dexcool-type (OAT) additives and a also some silicate (like the old stuff used). For what it's worth, I've seen this coolant used in Deere tractors for many, many years without problems- including LOTS of old tractors with copper/brass/lead solder radiators. Based on that, I wouldn't hesitate to use G05 in your application.

I'm going to disagree with a previous poster about isolating your radiator- that's a bad idea. I'd suggest running a ground wire from the frame or radiator support to the radiator- this prevents electralysis. Almost all heavy equipment- especially with brass radiators- uses a ground wire... and we're talking about equipment that's designed to last 1,000,000 miles and/or 10,000+ hours.
 
Another alternative for readily available "traditional green" antifreeze is Texaco Heavy Duty antifreeze. It's green... but it's low silicate- and it's NOT dexcool. Uses SCA additives- primarily in heavy truck applications... most of which had brass radiators until the past few years. I've seen this antifreeze at Advance Auto Parts.
 
I've got the referenced articles open in other windows to read shortly, but the lead solder incompatability would certainly explain my troubles as I've always used a roll of plumbing solder to redo my leak areas.

The reason I brought up the isolators is they are there from the factory, and have tradionally always isolated the radiator from surrounding metal. If there was a rouge ground due to metal contact I was thinking it may be a contributing factor.
Incidently, ford's tsb on cooling system electrolysis makes it clear that you should _not_ ground your heater core (and by extension, I would consider the radiator included as its hooked up the same way.) or you will have more severe problems. I always thought the opposite, but I figure a tsb has some iota of solid tech behind it. Ford tsb 6-21-19 http://modularfords.com/forums/f154/tsb-06-21-19-heater-core-68112.html

The pertinent bit:
Quote:


CAUTION:DO NOT GROUND HEATER CORE. IF THE HEATER CORE IS GROUNDED, YOU HAVE PROVIDED THE ELECTROLOSIS A PATH THROUGH THE HEATER CORE. THIS WOULD CAUSE THE HEATER CORE TO BECOME AN ANODE OR RECEIVER AND IT WOULD PROMOTE THE ELECTROLOSIS, OR ANY STRAY VOLTAGE TO USE THE COOLANT AS THE GROUND PATH.




Alex.
 
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