Octane and Combustion Temperature

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Question: All else equal and aside from obvious spark knock or pre-ignition, does a higher octane fuel have a lower combustion temperature?

I would think that the same amount of fuel is burned, but slower and for a longer time, so the same total heat must be put out, but maybe generating lower combustion temperatures because the heat is spread over a longer period of time.
 
I'd guess no.
High octane gas has less vapor pressure/less volatile ignition point. Once ignited, the burning temp would be the same.
Maybe the wrong words for this technical growd, but that's how the thought is stuck in my head.
 
I found this article on octane and what it does and doesn't predict. It essentially says that combustion temp is independent of anti-knock index and that it's possible to formulate two fuels with the same octane rating with different combustion temps.
 
Interesting. So I am just as likely to reduce combustion temp by switching brands as by changing octane.

Now, if the timing were too advanced, perhaps not audible knocking, but enough to raise combustion temps, then the higher octane, by eliminating the knocking, would be expected to reduce the combustion temps or should I say the cylinder head/piston crown temp is reduced.

Yes, let's rephrase the initial question:

Would a higher octane fuel reduce piston and head temperatures (regardless of actual combustion temp)?
 
Are we sure that knock would increase heat transfer to the piston and head? You're getting the same amount of the same mixture, just burning too early. That would cause the computer to yank timing on most engines, reducing power output. I'm not sure how much of an effect that would have on heat production and transfer.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd expect it might have some effect, but it wouldn't be much.
 
Well, my plugs indicate (per a reputable mechanic) that the engine is running too hot. He suggested I check the timing as it may be too advanced. I don't have audible knock (to my ear anyway). But this implies that timing advanced too much would create more heat. Since higher octane has a sort of compensatory effect on overly advanced timing, I am thinking that higher octane may help. Of course I need to check the timing and whether that is easily done by me or waits until next time the truck is in the shop is one factor. He did also advocate higher grade fuel because of the deposits on the plug (ash like deposits, photos in my other thread). Given the blacking inside the tail pipe, I doubt the too hot conditon is due to lean mixture. Anyhow, seems no harm to run mid-grade for 5000 miles and have a look at the plugs.
 
Quote:


Are we sure that knock would increase heat transfer to the piston and head?




That part I can answer. Spark knock/detonation does increase the amount of heat transferred to the chamber and piston. During normal combustion there is a boundry layer on the chamber and piston surface which acts as an insulator and shields the piston and head from a large percentage of the thermal load. Once knock/detonation takes place, it is violent enough to literally blow away this cooler boundary layer and submit engine components to the full heat of combustion.
 
punisher, you beat me to it.

An analogy, stand in a sauna, or place your hand under running water the same temp as the sauna.
 
It's good to get that issue out of the way, then. But if there was persistent knock, wouldn't that have shown up on the plugs? You typically see damaged insulators on the center electrode with persistent knocking.
 
Plug photos are at the top of this thread. I started this new thread to focus the topic.

I do not see any damage to the insulators or anything else. The whiteness of the insulators (where bare of ash deposits) and the erosion of the side electrodes maybe are indicative of too hot.

Anyhow, it's been running a long, long time like this. I think I will run higher octane fuel for 5000 mile and have another look. Can't hurt, may help.
 
Been thinking about this and I still believe higher octane will reduce temperatures in the combustion chamber, piston crown, and cylinder head. Here's why:

Higher octane fuel has additives to slow the burning of the fuel. Higer octane fuel can eliminate an existing knock in a car that is advanced too much or that has higher compression from deposits occupying some of the combustion chamber space.

In a car that is tuned and running optimally on 87 octane use of a 93 octane fuel, because it burns slower, will shift the peak pressure of combustion to a point farther along the crank revolution. If with 87 octane, peak pressure was reached at TDC, then the 93 octane might produce peak pressure several degrees after TDC. As a result, pressures in the cylinder will be lower overall because the piston will have begun traveling down it's stroke and the effective chamber size at the peak pressure will be larger. Since pressure produces heat (the more the molecules are packed together, the more they bump into each other, and the more movement, and the more heat), a lower pressure in the combustion chamber will result is reduced heat. It also should result in reduced performance (lower pressure = less push on the piston).

So it seems pretty simple that if the higher octane burns slower, peak pressure will be delayed, and that delay will result in reduced pressure, which would generate less heat.
 
Not quite. Higher octane/performance rated (100+)fuel does not burn slower necessarily. Octane only refers to the resistence to detonation, caused by a combination of heat and pressure, that a fuel has. Chances are the pressure curves for two different octane rated fuels will be interchangable assuming there is no detonation. Burn rates are independant of octane rating. You can blend for burn rates independant of octane rating and vice versa.
As it has been explained to me, octane/performance rating is a measure of how resistant a hydrocarbon is to decomposing and forming hydrogen radicals, which detonate/have a very high burn rate, on exposure to oxygen. I am sure to be schooled on my incomplete knowledge of the subject, but I have always had a tough time with chemistry.
 
Seems to me the way a fuel's anti-knock characteristic is improved is either to make it burn slower in the case of knock from too advanced of timing, or make it have a higher flash point, which would help in the case of knock from a secondary and unplanned ignition source. However, it would seem to me that increasing the flash point would also make it burn slower, so in my mind it seems one and the same at least in end result.
 
TallPaul,
octane has nothing to do with flame speed, energy content, flashpoint etc.

It's exactly as punisher pointed out, the resistance to spontaneous ignition (commencing with the destruction of the molecule, as per punisher's post).

By better resisting spontaneous combustion in the end gasses (the area of air/fuel that hasn't burned yet, but has been heated and compressed by the already burning/burned gasses), the ignition event can be commenced sooner, or the engine designed with a higher compression ratio.

That's all.
 
For those who like to read:


Further proofs and reading materials cited from Gasoline FAQ.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/

The specific point I used during this argument comes from part 3 of the FAQ section, about 60% from top down:


.......
The actual ignition timing to achieve the maximum pressure from normal
combustion of gasoline will depend mainly on the speed of the engine and the
flame propagation rates in the engine. Knock increases the rate of the
pressure rise, thus superimposing additional pressure on the normal
combustion pressure rise. The knock actually rapidly resonates around the
chamber, creating a series of abnormal sharp spikes on the pressure diagram.
The normal flame speed is fairly consistent for most gasoline HCs, regardless
of octane rating, but the flame speed is affected by stoichiometry.
.......


*************************************************************


......
7.4 What is the effect of changing the ignition timing?

The tendency to knock increases as spark advance is increased. For an engine
with recommended 6 degrees BTDC ( Before Top Dead Centre ) timing and 93
octane fuel, retarding the spark 4 degrees lowers the octane requirement to
91, whereas advancing it 8 degrees requires 96 octane fuel [27]. It should
be noted this requirement depends on engine design. If you advance the spark,
the flame front starts earlier, and the end gases start forming earlier in
the cycle, providing more time for the autoigniting species to form before
the piston reaches the optimum position for power delivery, as determined by
the normal flame front propagation. It becomes a race between the flame front
and decomposition of the increasingly-squashed end gases. High octane fuels
produce end gases that take longer to autoignite, so the good flame front
reaches and consumes them properly.

The ignition advance map is partly determined by the fuel the engine is
intended to use. The timing of the spark is advanced sufficiently to ensure
that the fuel-air mixture burns in such a way that maximum pressure of the
burning charge is about 15-20 degree after TDC. Knock will occur before
this point, usually in the late compression - early power stroke period.
The engine management system uses ignition timing as one of the major
variables that is adjusted if knock is detected. If very low octane fuels
are used ( several octane numbers below the vehicle's requirement at optimal
settings ), both performance and fuel economy will decrease.

The actual Octane Number Requirement depends on the engine design, but for
some 1978 vehicles using standard fuels, the following (R+M)/2 Octane
Requirements were measured. "Standard" is the recommended ignition timing
for the engine, probably a few degrees BTDC [38].

Basic Ignition Timing
Vehicle Retarded 5 degrees Standard Advanced 5 degrees
A 88 91 93
B 86 90.5 94.5
C 85.5 88 90
D 84 87.5 91
E 82.5 87 90

The actual ignition timing to achieve the maximum pressure from normal
combustion of gasoline will depend mainly on the speed of the engine and the
flame propagation rates in the engine. Knock increases the rate of the
pressure rise, thus superimposing additional pressure on the normal
combustion pressure rise. The knock actually rapidly resonates around the
chamber, creating a series of abnormal sharp spikes on the pressure diagram.
The normal flame speed is fairly consistent for most gasoline HCs, regardless
of octane rating, but the flame speed is affected by stoichiometry. Note that
the flame speeds in this FAQ are not the actual engine flame speeds. A 12:1
CR gasoline engine at 1500 rpm would have a flame speed of about 16.5 m/s,
and a similar hydrogen engine yields 48.3 m/s, but such engine flame speeds
are also very dependent on stoichiometry.
......
 
the short answer is that you can run high octane in any engine without a problem however you are wasting your money if you dont need high octane to prevent knocking or predetonation. the only real reason i can see to run higher octane higher compression ratios or some sort of problem with burning oil (which lowers octane).
 
Quote:


the short answer is that you can run high octane in any engine without a problem however you are wasting your money.


Presumably the higher octane fuel is a better quality fuel. So would the higher octane be less prone to leaving deposits in the fuel system and engine?

Interesting, my Aerostar 3.0 was pinging pretty bad on hard acceleration with 87 octane. It also consumes a quart every 1300 miles. Timing was right on the factory spec. Using 90 octane eliminated all audible ping. Then instead I retarded the timing 4 degrees and went back to 87 octane and get no audible ping.

Would I be better off paying extra for 90 octane at spec timing, or using 87 octane at 4 degrees retard? Note, the van was peppier at 90 octane and spec timing.

Anyway if the ping was from poor grade fuel, how did the timing retard eliminate it?

If the ping was from oil consumption, how did the timing retard eliminate it?

If the ping was from high compression due to presumed carbon deposits, how did the timing retard eliminate it?

Only thing that makes sense (on the surface) is that the ping was from timing being too advanced, so a retard eliminated it.
 
Tall Paul, retarding the timing reduces on of the main contributors to pinging. Whether there are deposits or other contributing factors, retarding the timing reduces one of the contributing factors to pinging, so less pinging occurs.

Your 4 degree retard is highly unlikely to cause any problems so it's a matter of the reduced performance you observed, plus some increased fuel consumption (typically not a lot) you may or may not have noticed vs what you save on fuel cost.

Gross amounts of spark retard will cause other problems, but 4 degrees is very unlikely to cause any engine problems that you will notice.
 
Cylinder pressure is one of the contributing factors to detonation. Retarding timing is an effective way to reduce cylinder pressure, and to a limited extent heat. Ford EDIS systems used to have an "Octane Adjust" plug that could be removed to dial in a 3 degree retard to prevent pinging.

As for being better off using 90 octane in the Aerostar, its really an economic decision. Do mileage, and a lesser exrent, power gains offset the extra money for higher octane gas?

As far as higher octane gas being somehow higher quality or leaving fewer deposits, I have never seen/experienced anything to back that up.
 
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