antisieze compound on lugnuts??

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Here's one guy's opinion. Also, check out his blog. I found it interesting.

http://brakeandfrontend.blogspot.com/

"NO ANTI-SEIZE ON WHEEL STUDS OR LUG NUTS

"Andrew Markel is a former technician and service writer and he brings this practical knowledge to the Brake & Front End team as editor."




Andrew should read the links he posts. From the ARP site he linked -

The torque method is sometimes inaccurate because of the uncertainty in the coefficient of friction at the interface between the bolt and the rod. This inaccuracy can be minimized by using the lubricant supplied by ARP.

Yes, they're talking about their rod bolts. But the idea is the same no matter what fastener.
 
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Shannow, I'm curious, what application uses this recipe you described?... building skyscrapers?




I don't think he's talking about watchmaking, do you?
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Jsharp, maybe the torque values given with the rod bolts take in to account the use of lubricant, since these and head bolts are so critical (torque value).

I agree we are over thinking this and that it probably only is an issue for those who are grossly over lubing and torquing to begin with.

On a fun note, I just did a crude trial with a grade 5 bolt (much softer than lug, I guess) in my vice. I stacked 1" of washers to give it stretch area on a bolt close to lug size. I torque wrenched the nut to 90 ft. lbs. about 8 times to a consistent sharpie mark.

After slathering ample anti-sieze on it, the sharpie marks lined up at only 50 ft. lbs.!

When I tightened it to 90, the nut turned about 1/12 turn (1/2 of nut flat) past the original sharpie mark.

Someone should try this test starting on clean/dry lug nuts.
 
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Shannow, I'm curious, what application uses this recipe you described?... building skyscrapers?




I don't think he's talking about watchmaking, do you?
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I'm betting on turbine and generator housings!




Yep,
the heated studs are on the HP and IP turbine casing half joints. Bolts are typically dureheat 1055 material, and installed at 0.15% strain (even the 5" diameter, 39" long ones).Service life is 200,000 operating hours, minus 15,000 hours each time the joint is split and reassembled. Life was up on two of my machines the last few years, so lots of fun replacing them.

Incredible to see a turbine casing with a distortion of 1/4" get pulled back together during re-assembly.

I'm glad that the design we've got didn't "progress" to Nimonic alloys, as these actually tighten in service, and have to be dismantled regularly to lower their tension.

The hydraulic bolts are for the turbine couplings. They are radial fit hydraulically tensioned and released.
http://www.pilgrim-international.co.uk/procedureb.pdf

Make a nice "bang" when they release.

edit: we use anti-seize religiously on the heated bolts. Nickel based best, graphite based not so good. Drilling out stuck bolts takes two shifts per bolt. (Copper, silver, or lead based antiseizes will make the bolts fail metallurgically.
 
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"I've always put the slightest bit of nevr sieze on all my vehicle's wheel studs. Just barely enough to slightly color the stud silver. It stays on forever and I've never ever had a lug nut come loose. Never had one stick either. I also torque the lugs to the factory spec since there's hardly any on there anyway."

Hey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Get with the program here, Mister.

That sounds too commonsensical for this thread.

But, since it does make sense seems like a good idea for me, what with living in the "rust belt" where that pesky salt invades pert' near every part of the conveyance.
 
I like doitmyself's method of addressing the "torque-with-antiseize" issue. Elegantly simple. Now there's no more need for speculation... just perform the test for your own application.
 
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I like doitmyself's method of addressing the "torque-with-antiseize" issue. Elegantly simple. Now there's no more need for speculation... just perform the test for your own application.




I agree, we need a "cutting Through the ---- With a Simple Test" award for BITOG so doitmyself can get the annual award.
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Jsharp, maybe the torque values given with the rod bolts take in to account the use of lubricant, since these and head bolts are so critical (torque value).





I'm certain they do take into account the thread lubricant. But it's the same situation with any fastener. A lubricated thread will require less torque for a given clamping force but IMO will give more consistent results. Especially when compared to dry fasteners that are old, dirty, rusty, etc...
 
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Interesting little test, jsharp.

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Yep, the heated studs are on the HP and IP turbine casing half joints. Bolts are typically dureheat 1055 material, and installed at 0.15% strain (even the 5" diameter, 39" long ones).Service life is 200,000 operating hours, minus 15,000 hours each time the joint is split and reassembled. Life was up on two of my machines the last few years, so lots of fun replacing them.




Shannow, you're making me miss the coal power plant job that I quit a couple of years ago! I was about to have a lot more involvement in the turbines when I left. I always liked the technical aspects of it, but wasn't in a good state of mind at the time and my buddies in the oilfield were making as much in two months as I was making all year.

Sorry for the off-topic ramble!
 
If I understand this correctly, anti-seize is to be used sparingly (it spreads), will prevent rusted bolt problem...and it may require less tourque to tighten or less effort to torque?
 
My 2 cents...

My current vehicle is a 1998 BMW 5-series. I have two sets of wheels+tires - winter and summer - both aluminum alloy. I rotate each set halfway through the season as well. It's always been important to me to make sure that whatever lug torque is used is the same on each lug - a lot of shops don't share that concern.

BMWs have a lug bolt system, not studs and nuts, and hub-centric wheel design. The lug bolts have tapers which align and snug against the alloys.

I've had problems with wheels sticking on during salt season. I've even had problems with silver anti-seize permitting "corrosion" and sticking over the winter. The paste will turn chunky and ivory-coloured. I've since switch to copper-based and had no issues.

Every change I make sure that the mating surfaces of the wheels and rotor hat are clean, and they always have been since I started doing this myself years ago. I then apply a coating of copper anti-seize to the entire rotor hat area that forms the mating surface with the wheel. I also lightly apply anti-seize to the threads of the lug bolt.

BMW has reportedly upped it's torque recommendation for "all models" over the years. Years ago I was told 78-88. Then 80-84, 84, 86 and 88 most recently. I "assemble" with my impact gun on the lowest setting to get all the lugs seated and lower the car to torque with a wrench. Since my threads are "wet" I torque to 80 - 10% margin gets me to a dry equivalent of 88 which is still in range. Never had a bolt be any less tight than 80 when I take it off and when I check on them a couple of days after installation they never take any additional rotation. At least in the summer my wheels see 'high loads' from driving
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My dad also has a similar car and I change his wheels/tires with the same practice. When going in for a recent large scheduled inspection his local dealer flipped out about the anti-seize on the threads. However, they were also just told that we sourced our own factory parts and did almost all of the inspection ourselves so they were out $1000 and were probably trying to cast doubt on the quality of the work (O2 sensors, air filters, oil changes, transmission and diff fluid, plugs,

Anyhow, at least one local dealer probably leaves threads dry. I've never had a thread oxidation or binding issue so I'm not insistent on using it on the threads, but I also have the wheels off every 3000km or so. I have had mating surface issues, so they definitely get anti-seize. Since I have never observed any loosening of the lugs, I would say that there's no issue using anti-seize if you know what you're doing and "undertorque" so that you don't overstretch the bolts.

Craig.
 
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If I understand this correctly, anti-seize.... may require less tourque to tighten or less effort to torque?


Yes, but more correctly, antiseize will require less torque (or effort) to properly stretch the bolt.

Try to think of the wheel bolt and lug nut as a clamping device. For the 'clamp' to work, the bolt must be stretched. This is backward-engineered to a torque value that is presented by the manufacturer to the person who services the car.
 
Why then, if nobody has had any problem with bolts coming loose, the first time ever I used silver spray-on antiseize on one wheel, lost a lug nut and the rest were very loose??

This is on a 2000 Firebird. I tried using the anti-seize because the lug nut are no longer going on smoothly. I torqued to the full 100 ft-lbs. level.
 
gregmp, I believe the problem is that you used spray. This can put antiseize on all the undesirable surfaces if you do it with the wheel on. Antiseize on the lug nut face can lube the very surface where you want friction and get you into trouble, as we've found out during testing in our lab.
 
Anyone care to explain the different types of anti-seize and when you should choose one over the other. There seems to be 3 general types (with many other specialty ones): Copper, aluminum/copper, and nickel.

I ask, because of the previous poster's better success with the copper stuff on rotor hats vs. the silver stuff.

Can I keep one in the shop, or do I need two?
Thank you.
 
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Any of the nay-sayers got documentable case of positive damage, lost wheels,etc. caused by antisieze? Auto lug nuts only.

Bob




I'd still like to see documented case of wheel/stud failure directly attributable to antisieze.
 
I wish someone had used it on the Mitsubishi truck I bought a few years ago, I had a flat getting it home, and could not get it off. tried jumping on a 6 ft pipe on the end of the lug wrench, sledge hammers, etc. finally got it off with a torch.
 
From the McMaster-Carr catalog:

Copper antiseize is the most economical.

Aluminum antiseize (the silver stuff), which may additionally contain graphite and copper, has improved corrosion resistance.

Nickel antiseize is excellent for applications where dissimilar metals such as brass and steel are used together. It contains nickel, aluminum, and graphite, but it's copper free (copper can act as a catalyst in some chemical reactions). Temperature range is -65° to +2600°F, which makes it better than copper or aluminum for hi-temp applications.

There are many other grades of antiseize, which include moly, lead, stainless steel, zinc, teflon, graphite, or combinations of these elements. These are for specialized purposes.

Where I shop, it appears that aluminum antiseize is the most popular compound sold over the counter for the DIYer. That's what I have and I use it everywhere.

This replaces the nickel antiseize that I've used for the past 25 years. A mechanic gave me a jar of this stuff when I was a junior engineer, long before antiseize became popular among the DIY crowd. The long-term benefits of using it have shown up repeatedly in my garage. I keep my cars a loong time.

Any antiseize is better than none.
 
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