Honda 10W40 GN4, 8073 miles, Honda ST1100

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Rick_A

Joined
Mar 2, 2006
Messages
119
Location
Ash, NC
1999 Honda ST1100
Water-cooled V4
Shared engine/trans. oil, wet clutch

Blackstone Labs

Oil...............Delo15W40.....GC0W30.........Honda 10W40
Filter............PL14610........3423 Bosch.....1536 Napa Gold
Total Miles....65,033..........73,008...........81,081
Miles on oil....8,070..........7,975.............8,073
Time on Oil.....3 1/2 mon.......5 1/2 mo....4 Mo
Make up oil......0................0................0

Aluminum.........11.............13...............12
Chromium.........1................1................1
Iron................27.............41..............25
Copper............4...............4................3
Lead...............3...............2................3
Tin.................0...............0................1
Moly..............231............36..............50
Nickel.............0...............0................1
Manganese......0..............1.................0
Silver..............0...............0...............0
Titanium..........0..............0................0
Potassium........0..............3................2
Boron..............74.............11.............124
Silicon.............13.............14.............12
Sodium.............5..............175...........58
Calcium............3471.........2290.........1988
Magnesium........10............456...........65
Phosphorus.......1211.........906..........815
Zinc.................1499.......1140.........1053
Barium.............0..............0..............0
Flashpoint F......405..........410...........390
Fuel................ Antifreeze........0................0.35..........?
Water.............0.................0..............0
Insoluables......0.1............0.3...........0.2
SUS [email protected]
TBN.................5.4..........7.2...........3.6

Comments:
Honda 10W40 GN4 oil
1536 is a Napa Gold automotive oil filter
No oil additives used. FP3000 in the gas.
Still have a little sodium from the lead substitute that I was running last OCI & start of this one.
I installed a new Honda OEM air cleaner for this run. It didn't change the silicon level.
This is the first oil that showed consumption in this engine. I didn't need to add any oil but the oil level dropped from the Max to the Min range.

The Motorcycle-spec. Honda oil is OK but doesn't impress me.
Compared to the Delo the TBN, flashpoint, and add-packs are lower. The Honda oil also sheared down quit a bit.
The wear metals are similar to the Delo, but I don't see any reason to run this oil again especially at twice the price of Delo.


I put the new Shell Triple Protection Rotella 15W40 (CJ4 version) in it this time so we'll see what it looks like in 8,000 miles.
I decided to try the Rotella after the nice Harley UOA (thanks G-Man) and the 'interesting' smell of the CJ4 version.
 
Your Goldwing UOA looks good and your total mileage is still pretty low.
I have been reading posts here on BITOG for quit a while and saw many conflicting opinions about HDEO vs. “real” motorcycle oils and short vs. long OCIs so I decided to run some tests on my own.
I have been pleasantly surprised by how well the oils hold up with 8,000 mile OCIs.
So far I have not noticed any difference in gas mileage or how the bike feels (shifts) so I plan on testing a few more brands after the Rotella.
 
This is an excellent indicator of what I've pointed out all along... and that is that petroleum based oils protect against corrosion better than group IV and V oils. Check the iron numbers, and that tells that tail (unless you're gullible and on the pablum, of course).

Thanks for sharing this info.
smile.gif


Dan
 
I'm gullible and give me your pablum FTM because I'm falling for everything you write!

I can draw no such instant conclusion about GC in this application. Time was longer, fuel additive was used (Na) - heck for all we know the Ba could have kept the Fe down. Trying to prove a point maybe isn't the best way to look at UOA's.
dunno.gif
cool.gif
 
The GN4 is available as 10W40 or 20W50; I have not seen it in 20W40.
I have only used the GN4 10W40 once and in my UOA and others that I have seen there is only a very small amount of Moly.

Rick
 
I wonder how your clutch liked all that Moly from the Delo? I love the Delo oil but this is the 1st sample I have seen with that much Moly. Honda says do not use Moly!
 
There are some oils with higher moly count than that and people dont experience clutch slippage. I think the "moly myth" has scared a lot of people.
 
has scared a lot of people into using the more expensive oils when they really don't have to. rotella, mobil delvac 1300 super, chevron delo 400, all good oils that will do your engine right!
 
Moly is available in different compounds. A fellow at Redline expained that is why the moly compound they use will not have a detrimental effect on the clutch. This makes a lot of sense when you can read about this very subject on this site and it is mentioned that chemical engineers originally couldn't get moly to remain suspended in the oil until they modified it further.

The Redline oils contain lots of "moly" and I used it in my dual purpose bike with no ill effects on the clutch. Honda oil has always contained moly (eventhough they say not to do so) but I'm not sure what compound it is.

Another site (or MC mag, can't recall for sure) gave a 500ppm of moly as a suggested upper limit for wet clutch MC's.

To me, it boils down to don't use "Energy Conserving" labeled oil in my motorcycle. I will have to assume that the moly compound these oils use is different than the moly compound found in non-Energy Conserving oils. I could be wrong, but its all I have to go with plus I have lots of choices amongst non-Energy Conserving oils.
 
BTW what did your oil look like when you removed it? Dark, thick, any particles? Just wondering I know it doesnt always show a real world knowledge but I have a cbr929rr with a barnett clutch and the oil looks like ---- when it comes out after 1-2k miles. Im trying rotella T 5w40 right now and Ill let you know the results.
 
Toyo,

I have been using Delo and other HDEOs for many years in my street bikes and off-road stuff. I haven’t had any clutch problems at all.
 
paul246,
Why do you assume that EC oils will be a problem?
Isn't that still just part of the myth?
Soluble moly's are all that you will find in a motor oil, be it marketed to motorcycles or not.
Most oils with elevated pricing, that are marketed to motorcycle riders, are more than likely previously purchased API service catagory packages to begin with. Some continued on with certs. from JASO, others simply claim certifiable.
Many of these with moly.
Bike mfgs only caution against the use of EC oils to cover their butts, and nothing more. They do not test these oils to make these recommendations...they are only practicing CYA.

Moly disulfide (MoS2) is pretty much reserved for use in some gear oils, greases, and chain lubes.
I doubt we can find one motor oil, on any shelf, with MoS2.

The EC myth is only due to the fact that Honda may have actually been using MoS2 in one of their previously offered labels. I think 3 Goldwings experienced a bit of clutch slip as they drove to the Dairy Queen, and one other thinks maybe his slipped too. I think the whole "clutch slip, EvilEC, can't use car oil myth" started from these four anecdotes.

It has blossomed into one of the most fantastic conventional wisdom mishaps.
Heck, even the Harley guys figured out that the synthetic bearing skate thing was a bunch of hooey started by a couple of less-than-learned bike mechanic/tattoo artists.

...or did they?
hornets_nest.gif
 
Quote:

I think 3 Goldwings experienced a bit of clutch slip as they drove to the Dairy Queen, and one other thinks maybe his slipped too.

Click to expand...

It's okay to take Goldwings to the Dairy Queen? Rats! I've been missing out this past year!
smile.gif


Are you suggesting that a wet clutch would not be suseptible to slippage under any condition? Or that you doubt the current EC oil formulations would cause that?

That Honda would go out of its way to print very explicit warnings against using EC oils in their bikes has to mean something. I can't imagine they'd do that based on a weak anecdotal evidence.
 
I am suggesting that a clutch will normally slip when the springs are sacked out, the plates are glazed, basket notched and worn, etc... One oil could actually allow the slip condition to be exaggerated over another oil...but neither of them is going to be the root problem with the clutch, and either would probably be a quite sufficient lubricant in a mechanically sound engine and clutch.
I also doubt that an EC oil of any flavor is going to be the root cause of a clutch slip or failure.

I think it was Honda that first made the fax paux of using MoS2 as an additive of a fluid being used in a wet clutch situation. So, they have a bit more than anecdotal evidence of this being a bone-headed move.
And their warning about EC is because when the category first came out, it was rumored...or maybe even true, that some formulators were using increased moly as a way to gain the numbers needed that the reduction of ZDDP would supposedly reduce.

IF this is true, and some formulators are providing EC rated oils with MoS2 as an EP additive, then a bike mfg must make this warning. They have no idea if you would choose the proper EC oil or not, so they must make all of them taboo.
They are practicing CYA.

Let's assume that we have an EC rated oil that we know for fact has NO moly of any sort. What is the problem with this oil, and what would disqualify it from use in a wet clutch?

I have looked sxtensively for a paper I read a long time ago that Rotax put out.
It showed that the wet clutch can operate fine with oils using MoDTC as an additive...up to a point that the PPM of the additive was 700ppm. I think even then, it was found that the oil also sheared way down out of spec before the problems started, even with the high add samples.
 
Okay, I see ... CYA is probably the reason and is reasonable, since it's FAR easier to say simply "No EC" than to say "No oil with certain chemical properties ..."

Doesn't Redline have something like 700ppm of Moly? I see lots of people who use that in bikes. I've seen other people mention 200ppm as a rough "upper limit" of Moly for oils.

But your point is well taken ... a clutch in good condition is less likely to slip even with Moly. And a poorly maintained clutch might slip even with very little Moly ... or perhaps even *no* Moly.
 
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