Tires with extra outside shoulder tread?

[GC4lunch]

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Due to my driving style I always wear out the outside shoulder tread prematurely. And no, don't even think it's an alignment issue -- it isn't. It's simply due to high curve speeds and due to lots of high speed turns during city driving. I'm wondering if anybody knows of any tire that has a bit extra outside shoulder thread. For the last few years I have been using Conti Sport Contact summer tires (205/55/16 W), which I like due their very balanced performance. I have over a quarter inch tread across the tire width left, but the outside shoulder is worn almost smooth after 8k miles.

The tires must be summer tires, they may be directional but must not be symmetrical. The speed rating should be at least V. Any suggestions?

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On our previous vehicle (a Nissan Maxima, with FWD), we used to go through front tires at a rapid rate, especially wearing the outside shoulders. (I suspect my driving style is similar to yours.) The best tires we ever fitted to that car -- taking into account many factors including price and wear -- were Dunlop SP Sport 01 tires. I did not prematurely wear out the outer shoulders of those tires. (Other tires we mounted on that car: Goodyear Eagle F1 Steels, an exotic tire with steel mesh carcass -- sidewall plies -- and Kevlar tread belts, very lightweight; Nokian NR-V, a directional asymmetric tire optimized for 40-50 degree F. wet roads; and Toyo T1-S, touted as a performance tire, but which I found to be a "polite" tire.)

When I purchased the Dunlop SP Sport 01 tires from Tire Rack, they were listed as SP Sport 01A, a variant of the 01, but the tires delivered by Tire Rack were the 01, not the 01A, so it apparently is a lottery which you get. The SP Sport 01 (link), which is an asymmetric non-directional tire, handles superbly, brakes well, and wears evenly. I commend it to your attention.

 

[wantin150]

Are the GSD3's your running standard load? There are two types available in my size (225-45-17), an XL 94W and standard 91Y. The Y's are said to have softer sidewalls and a little less turn in (more shoulder roll).

I run mine around 42 PSI +/- and I will have 45,000 miles on them at replacement. This is my wife's daily driver and it sees a lot of tire wearing turns. I drive the snot out of this car when I have it and truely test their capabilities.

Looking to replace them with the new Eagle F1 All Season. Looks like a pretty awesome tire.

 

[GC4lunch]

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Are the GSD3's your running standard load? There are two types available in my size (225-45-17), an XL 94W and standard 91Y. The Y's are said to have softer sidewalls and a little less turn in (more shoulder roll).

I run mine around 42 PSI +/- and I will have 45,000 miles on them at replacement. This is my wife's daily driver and it sees a lot of tire wearing turns. I drive the snot out of this car when I have it and truely test their capabilities.

Looking to replace them with the new Eagle F1 All Season. Looks like a pretty awesome tire.

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The OEM Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 tires on the Mazda6 are 215/50R17 93XL; I replaced the front pair with Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 225/50R17 94Y tires; they are not XL.

The door placard pressure for the Mazda6 recommends 32psi all around. I run the rear tires at 35psi and the fronts at 38psi. If the fronts were over-inflated, one would expect that they would wear more rapidly at the center of the tread, and less so at the shoulders, but it is the shoulders that are wearing rapidly.

Why on earth, living in South Carolina, would you want to get all season tires that, to gain some traction in light snow, give up a significant amount of their wet traction? I'm guessing you see a lot more rain than snow there.

You would do much better where you live with the new Yokohama S.drive, which comes much closer to the adjective "awesome" than any all season tire does.

 

[wantin150]

We get the occasional snow but you're right, we have a lot more rain. The All Season F1's are "slightly" cheaper than the GSD3's in that size, although that isn't the main reason. Both tires carry the AA rating although the compound is a little different. They also carry a (I think) 400 treadware rating vs the 280. This car is our "do it all" car and is the one we take on trips. We have relatives in the upstate which gets a touch more snow than we see here, even if it is only a couple times a year. We also have relatives in New York. Should something happen, I want the ability to make the drive, without having to drive my truck.

Although I don't want to hijack this tread, I am strictly a Goodyear/Dunlop guy. Probably better and cheaper options out there but I have driven on Goodyear tires, in all conditions, under all kinds of circumstances, and they have never let me down. Unfortunately, I can't seem to get over that loyality. I gave Dunlop a chance with the same car and was disappointed. I'm going to try them one more time for my truck and see how it goes. If I'm not satisfied. I'll find something else. The OEM Firestones on my truck have held up well (45,000 miles when I replace) but I will not replace them with Firestone(MAYBE their AT's IF the Dunlop's don't work out).

 

[GC4lunch]

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We get the occasional snow but you're right, we have a lot more rain. The All Season F1's are "slightly" cheaper than the GSD3's in that size, although that isn't the main reason. Both tires carry the AA rating although the compound is a little different.

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The difference between an all season tire and a non all season tire is in the tread compound. The natural qualities of rubber (and the rubberlike chemicals used in tires) is to shed water (and, therefore, snow, which at the margin is water); the way an all season tire works in snow is that the compound is modified so that snow can stick to the tread. On the first revolution, some snow sticks to the tread, then on subsequent revolutions, the snow on the tread compacts with the snow on the ground (like packing a snowball), giving traction. In wet conditions, also, water stays on the tread of an all season tire, rather than, as in non all season tires, being rapidly shed from it. That water retained on the tread is not a good thing for traction.

The NHTSA mandated procedure for measuring Traction (wet braking, essentially) is meaningless for vehicles with antilock braking (ABS), because it requires that measurements on the coefficient of friction commence no earlier than 0.5 seconds after the wheel/tire has been mechanically locked while the trailer on which the wheel is mounted is traveling 40 mph, which is a poor analogue to the actual behavior of wheels and tires on an ABS-equipped vehicle. The NHTSA procedure keeps the same contact patch on the tire's circumference in place as it is dragged across the tarmac a minimum of 29 feet with no tire rotation before measurements commence. During that dragging, the film of water that all season tires carry on the tread is effectively scrubbed off, providing artificially good results for all season tires, but the test procedure does not give a similar boost to non all season tires, which naturally shed the water from the tread without the scrubbing action.

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They also carry a (I think) 400 treadware rating vs the 280.

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There is no technical reason why all season tires generally should have higher treadwear ratings than non all season tire, but there is a marketing reason. The tire manufacturers assume that the primary factor in a purchaser's decision to purchase all season tires is that the purchaser values price over performance (if the purchaser wanted performance, he or she would have a second set of dedicated winter tires, and swap tires twice a year), whereas the purchaser of non all season tires generally values performance over price. Treadwear is, of course, a factor in price, and generally is easily achieved by making the tread compound harder. Performance generally is achieved with softer tread compounds, however.

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Although I don't want to hijack this tread, I am strictly a Goodyear/Dunlop guy. Probably better and cheaper options out there but I have driven on Goodyear tires, in all conditions, under all kinds of circumstances, and they have never let me down. Unfortunately, I can't seem to get over that loyality. I gave Dunlop a chance with the same car and was disappointed. I'm going to try them one more time for my truck and see how it goes. If I'm not satisfied. I'll find something else.

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I assume you know that Dunlop and Goodyear have an interesting relationship. Dunlop, which was founded in Dublin, moved across from Ireland to England, and for years was a British tire company. Sumitomo of Japan acquired Dunlop a couple of decades ago and then, when the Japanese bubble burst, Sumitomo and Goodyear engaged in a transaction that (depending upon who describes it) was a buy-out by Goodyear or a joint venture involving Dunlop. In any event, Dunlop operates as a semi-independent unit with strong involvement from Sumitomo and Goodyear.

There are great variations within the Dunlop line. Many of the Dunlop tires these days are designed and made in Asia. The SP Sport 01 that I mentioned in an earlier message in this thread was developed in Germany in collaboration with Audi and BMW as an OEM tire for the Audi S4 (which is why it may be of interest to the original poster, who is looking for tires for his Audi) and the BMW 7-series; and the SP Sport 01 tires we purchased were made in Germany also, and were very much European-style tires (as are some of the lines of tires that the Japanese company Yokohama makes). So when you say you will give "Dunlop" a try, your results may differ drastically according to which of the Dunlop tire lines you try.

 

[CapriRacer]

GC4 Lunch:

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.....The difference between an all season tire and a non all season tire is in the tread compound......

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I was hoping you meant tread design, not tread compound, but reading the rest of that paragraph it is apparent you didn't.

Snow traction - what makes it an all season tire - is driven primarily by the tread pattern. Tread compound has very little effect on snow traction.

In fact, the standard that is used to define an all season tire is a written description of the characteristics of the tread pattern. The tread compound isn't even mentioned.

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....There is no technical reason why all season tires generally should have higher treadwear ratings than non all season tire, but there is a marketing reason.....

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At first I was going to disagree, but reading the rest of the paragraph...

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....... The tire manufacturers assume that the primary factor in a purchaser's decision to purchase all season tires is that the purchaser values price over performance (if the purchaser wanted performance, he or she would have a second set of dedicated winter tires, and swap tires twice a year), whereas the purchaser of non all season tires generally values performance over price. Treadwear is, of course, a factor in price, and generally is easily achieved by making the tread compound harder. Performance generally is achieved with softer tread compounds, however.....

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If we confine our descussion to three types of tires - all season, winter, and ....oh.....some folks call them "summer" tires, then I think you're a little off base.

If we assume that 2 tires are identical in all respects - except for the all season part, then a summer tire will generally give better wear, because the tread patterns are simpler. But only slightly better.

However, most of the time the tread compounds in an all season tire wear better - at the sacrifice of traction.

I know you are an advocate of winter tires and - as you call them "3 season" tires - and I happen to support you on this - but I think we have to recognize that most folks don't like to change tires, plus they want the tires to wear well, so all season tires is what they want and what they are comfortable with.

Just so you don't misunderstand me - I am lumping both hydroplaning resistance and pure wet traction together under the umbrella "wet traction".

 

[GC4lunch]

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GC4 Lunch:

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.....The difference between an all season tire and a non all season tire is in the tread compound......

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I was hoping you meant tread design, not tread compound, but reading the rest of that paragraph it is apparent you didn't.

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Nope, you read me correctly the second time.

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Snow traction - what makes it an all season tire - is driven primarily by the tread pattern. Tread compound has very little effect on snow traction.

In fact, the standard that is used to define an all season tire is a written description of the characteristics of the tread pattern. The tread compound isn't even mentioned.

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Pirelli P Zero Nero M+S, an all season tire
Pirelli P Zero Nero (full stop): not an all season tire.
The tread patterns are identical. The compounds used for the treads, however, are very different. The all season tire has a much higher treadwear rating and a much longer wet braking distance.

(now discontinued) Pirelli P7000 Supersport: an all season tire
(now discontinued) Pirelli P7000: not an all season tire.
The tread patterns are identical. The compounds used for the treads, however, are very different. The all season tire has a much higher treadwear rating and a much longer wet braking distance.

There are many other examples of pairs of very similar (though not identical) tread patterns in manufacturers' line-ups, where one tire is an all season tire and the other is not.

There are all season tires with large tread blocks and all season tires with small tread blocks; there are non all season tires with large tread blocks, and there are non all season tires with small tread blocks.

There are all season tires with long, uninterrupted tread grooves; there are non all season tires with long, uninterrupted tread grooves.

There are all season tires with directional tread patterns; there are non all season tires with directional tread patterns.

There are all season tires with asymmetrical treads; there are non all season tires with asymmetrical treads.

In fact (with the possible exception of over-siping, which is common, but not universal, in all season tires but very rare in non all season tires), I think you cannot name a single characteristic of tread pattern (or any combination of characteristics) that distinguishes an all season tire from a non all season tire.

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....There is no technical reason why all season tires generally should have higher treadwear ratings than non all season tire, but there is a marketing reason.....

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At first I was going to disagree, but reading the rest of the paragraph...

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....... The tire manufacturers assume that the primary factor in a purchaser's decision to purchase all season tires is that the purchaser values price over performance (if the purchaser wanted performance, he or she would have a second set of dedicated winter tires, and swap tires twice a year), whereas the purchaser of non all season tires generally values performance over price. Treadwear is, of course, a factor in price, and generally is easily achieved by making the tread compound harder. Performance generally is achieved with softer tread compounds, however.....

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If we confine our descussion to three types of tires - all season, winter, and ....oh.....some folks call them "summer" tires,

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A quibble: I think that in the current market, there are four types: winter, all season, "true summer," and "3-1/2 season" tires. Admittedly, this terminology is not used, but it reflects the "facts on the ground," as Donald Rumsfeld used to say. That is, within the category of "summer" tires, there are two very different groups of tires. Compare, for instance, the Yokohama ADVAN Neova and the Yokohama ADVAN Sport. The Neova is a tire designed to be sticky, with extremely high performance, at high operating temperatures and, while a street tire, it is suitable for light track use. However, at lower temperatures (below 40 degrees F., and really below 50 degrees F.), its tread is hard and the tire gets quite goosey. The ADVAN Sport, in contrast, has an exceptionally wide temperature operating range, staying pliable and flexible to well below freezing. In fact, we have ADVAN Sports on our own car, and I have found it to have very much superior traction in temperatures at least 15 (F.) degrees below freezing to Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 sll season tires.

That is why I am reluctant to call non all season tires "summer tires." There is a subset of non all season tires that really are summer-only tires, but most non all season tires, having tread compounds that are much softer than all season tires' at -- say -- 40 degrees F., are better-performing at -- say -- 20 degrees F. than all season tires are. (The tread compounds of all season tires that are hard at 40 degrees get even harder at 20 degrees.) So those latter non all season tires are better winter (though unsuited for snow) tires than all season tires are.

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If we assume that 2 tires are identical in all respects - except for the all season part, then a summer tire will generally give better wear, because the tread patterns are simpler. But only slightly better.

However, most of the time the tread compounds in an all season tire wear better - at the sacrifice of traction.

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As I note above, though there may be more non all season tires with large tread blocks and more all season tires with small tread blocks, there are all season tires with large tread blocks and there are non all season tires with small tread blocks. I think that the reason that the majority of all season tires have high -- some -very high -- treadwear ratings is that the tire manufacturers, recognizing that their target purchaser wants long wear, make them with very hard compounds, which has a significant negative effect upon their handling and braking performance, also.

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I know you are an advocate of winter tires and - as you call them "3 season" tires - and I happen to support you on this - but I think we have to recognize that most folks don't like to change tires, plus they want the tires to wear well, so all season tires is what they want and what they are comfortable with.

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I think we are in full and complete agreement on this. For the average tire purchaser, the first five most important factors are price, price, treadwear (when do I have to pay that price again?), price, and treadwear -- and braking take the hindmost.

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Just so you don't misunderstand me - I am lumping both hydroplaning resistance and pure wet traction together under the umbrella "wet traction".

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Understood. As you know, my take on the subject is that hydroplaning resistance is very important, but only a very small percentage of the time, when the standing (or flowing) water on the roadway is deeper than the tread groove depth. At those times, the Utopian in me says: reduce speed. The very best anti-hydroplaning tire ever made is quite inferior in resistance to hydroplaning to a very ordinary, everyday tire on a vehicle traveling 15 mph slower than the vehicle equipped with the good tires.

 

[CapriRacer]

GC4Lunch,

It's obvious that we have some fundamental disagreements, but I find it interesting that there are some things we are in lockstep on.

Some info that you might find interesting:

The Europeans do not like the term "all season". Aside from the "Not Invented Here!", there is a very strong cultural leaning towards winter requiring special consideration - and that includes vehicles, which also includes tires.

I've run across several instances where the "Snowflake Symbol" has purposely left off a tire, because it's intended market was Europe, and the Europeans take a negative view of this symbol. Put another way, this symbol de-enhances the marketability of a tire.

I guess where I was headed with this was: Even though there may be some tires where the all season tread pattern is the same as the non-all season tread pattern, I would be careful drawing too strong of a conclusion about the technical differences.

 

[wantin150]

Marketing at it's finest I guess!

 

[GeaugaFletcher]

To more or less return OT

Camber adjustment on the Audi in question requires shifting the subframe?

Camber adjustment is not independent 'side to side'?

This is called a 'performance oriented' setup?

Sounds more like Audi wants you to use ONLY their specified numbers - ".75 degrees negatiff camber is sufficient in ALL CASES. Ignorant Yankee drifers need not make changes vith their cheese-burger fat fingers."

 

[moribundman]

It's not a camber issue to begin with. As for the "Yankee drifers" I don't know, but the "Yankee (or American't) dealer" surely funked the car up each time they got their hands on it. No factory training!