redline and easy driven cars

[Marty]

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MolaKule:

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So what direct quote from Hatco and Mobil and others have yu posted?

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I think Redline is fine for daily drivers, but better for racing.

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Great.

Here's Mobil's take on it:

http://www.mobil1.com/products/faq.jsp?catId=19

"Q. Red Line Oil claims to have 100 percent polyolester base stocks. Are these different or better than the base stocks used in Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™?

A. We are very familiar with polyolesters. In fact, we manufacture them and use them in our aviation jet engine oils such as Mobil Jet Oil II® and Mobil Jet Oil 254® and in our refrigeration compressor lubricants, where the polyolesters are utilized for their compatibility with new HFC refrigerants. Polyolesters are indeed excellent at high-temperature oxidation stability and low volatility.

However, our work on automobile engines and jet engine designs has shown that polyalphaolefins (PAOs) offer the best all-around performance for gasoline engines due to their:

Being completely compatible with conventional oils and gasoline engine seals.

Providing both low- and high-temperature performance.

Providing a stable oil in the presence of water and moisture.

Having anti-rust capabilities"

I haven't talked to anyone at Hatco in years. When it was Emery Industries it formulated a synthetic, Frigid Go. It was a diester.

Given that the laws of physics are similar at Hatco to the Universe in general, I assume they'd outline the same costs, benefits, and downsides I have.


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[thedawk]

So in some of todays smaller engines that routinely see 4000 to 5000 or even 6000 rpm on a daily basis and have power output of nealy double the loping V8s from several years back, would the RL be a good candidate for this situation. Maybe the driver isn't actually driving the car any harder than normal but the operating conditions of the engines have changeds over the years. Are the demands of a loping 180hp pushrod American V8 the same as the demands of a high strung DOHC 180hp 4 banger with a 3.5 quart oil sump. I think RL would be a fine candidate for todays daily drivers.
thedawk

 

[Motorbike]

Redline and racing question :

Who are the front runners using Redline in Nascar Racing ? I pick this type of motorsport racing to ask about since it is obviously pretty demanding on an engine and it's oil .

Next up :

Formula cars . Who's using Redline ?

How about Moto GP and Superbike ? Are the factory teams using it ?

 

[satterfi]

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Originally posted by Marty:
The name of the thread is "redline and easy driven cars".

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Thanks for the reminder. I was beginning to think it was "Redline and refrigeration compressors" based on the sources you quote.

 

[Marty]

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satterfi:

I was beginning to think it was "Redline and refrigeration compressors" based on the sources you quote.

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In the entire history of synthetics the only motor oils with polyolester bases were All Proof - now defunct, Red Line, and a motorcycle oil company - that's three.

Unfortunately the only signficant applications for polyolester are jet/turbine lubes and refrigeration.

That explains the dearth of sources on polyolesters as motor oils for automotive use.


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[Motorbike]

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Originally posted by Marty:


That explains the dearth of sources on polyolesters as motor oils for automotive use.

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Yet there is a wealth of information on low molecular weight esters to include PE's and engine seal compatibility problems .

 

[Marty]

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MolaKule:

The quote from Mobil is old hat.

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You asked for something from Mobil. You got it. Now it's "old hat"?

Do you mean they've changed their minds?

Do you mean there's some polyolester that Mobil doesn't know about?

Or do you mean you already knew that Mobil said pretty much what I said and were just chain-jerking when you asked for something from Mobil?

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They do use a polyolester in many of their products, called TME. Maybe you could discuss the chemistry of TME and enlighten us.

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I was under the impression the topic was "redline and easy driven cars", not "polyolesters that aren't being used as base stocks". However, if you want a polyolester and don't want to use Red Line, take a look at:

http://www.exxonmobil.com/USA-English/Aviation/PDS/GLXXENAVIEMMobilJetOilll.asp

http://www.exxonmobil.com/USA-English/Aviation/PDS/Pds_Files/glxxenaviemmobiljetoilll.pdf

Mobil Jet Oil II

cSt @ 40ºC (102ºF) 27.6

cSt @ 100ºC (212ºF) 5.1

Pour Point, ºF, ASTM D 97 -74

Flash Point, ºF, ASTM D 92 518

http://store.avlube.com/mobjetii24qu.html

$169.56 / $7.06 a quart

That's about $2 or $3 cheaper than Red Line for a 100% polyolester.

Btw, I wouldn't recommend it for an easy driven car either.

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Hatco makes about 8 diesters and 35 polyolesters (some mon-esters, some tri-esters, some more complex esters, etc), which are used in many gear lube and motor oil formulations.

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Yes.

http://www.hatcocorporation.com/pages/about_products.html

"Hatco is the largest manufacturer of lubricant grade esters in the world, and has the broadest range of products available anywhere. We specialize in polyol esters, the highest performing class used in the most demanding lubricant applications such as jet engines and refrigeration systems. Hatco is the leader in both of these markets and our polyol esters are used in over 50% of the jet engines worldwide."

Notably absent is the phrase "automotive motor oils". You want me to ask them why?

At this point two manufacturers, Red Line and one motorcycle specialist, uses a polyolester base for a motor oil.

I believe there are good reasons for that, one of which is there are better choices for easy driven cars.

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Many polyolesters are used in refrigeration systems, as well as PAO and poly glycol ether esters.

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I believe I've made that clear.

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The point I am making is I all I see are links to formulators or blenders ....

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And, of course, Red Line.

You're free to post links to anyone other than Red Line that thinks a polyolester of any stripe whatsoever would make a fine and dandy motor oil for easy driven cars.


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[Marty]

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Motorbike:

Yet there is a wealth of information on low molecular weight esters to include PE's and engine seal compatibility problems .

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There are a number of SAE Technical Papers, for those with access to them, that either mention or discuss in more detail seal compatibility and other issues in selecting a base stock:

650082 Long-Life Motor Oils

740118 Use of Synthetic Lubricants in Multigrade Motor Oils

840185 Effects of Synthetic Lubricants on Standard Rubber Compounds

841366 Synthetics as Future Diesel Engine Lubricants

871273 Synthetic Automotive Lubricants--Performance and Protection

922348 Use of Low-Viscosity, Low-Volatility Basestocks in Formulation of High Performance Motor Oils

951026 Advances in High Performance Synthetic Oil Technology

981444 Advanced Synthetic Passenger Vehicle Engine Oils for Extended Oil Drain Performance

2001-1-2974 Fluoroelastomer Compatibility With Advanced Jet Engine Oils


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[slider]

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Originally posted by Marty:

At this point two manufacturers, Red Line and one motorcycle specialist, uses a polyolester base for a motor oil.

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Although the formulation of the base stocks in Redline is proprietary, (like just about every other oil) they have never claimed that it is 100% ester. Wonder why that is?

The wise don't put ANY serious stock in marketers, especially if the claims are not quantitative. And in the case of RL's claims of basestocks, they are not.

 

[Marty]

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slider:

Although the formulation of the base stocks in Redline is proprietary, (like just about every other oil) they have never claimed that it is 100% ester. Wonder why that is?[/QB]

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http://www.redlineoil.com/why_redline.asp

"Rather than cutting costs by blending into polyalphaolefin base stock for its motor oil, Red Line Oil only uses superior poly ester-based products ....".

I don't think the *primary* reason other companies use polyalphaolefin base stocks is "cutting costs". However, this does indicate that a goodly percentage of the Red Line oils is a "poly ester".

It sure smells like a polyolester.


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[MolaKule]

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Notably absent is the phrase "automotive motor oils". You want me to ask them why?

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Because they are suppliers of basic polyolester chemistries. They don't normally blend or formulate for production, and they don't give out information as to whom they supply.

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I was under the impression the topic was "redline and easy driven cars", not "polyolesters that aren't being used as base stocks".

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So did I, but your statements infer you know about ester chemistry so I thought maybe you had some information over and above what we already knew here and would be willing to share that with us.


Why didn't you include this sentence from
the Hatco website?:

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Polyol esters are also the ester of choice for blending with PAOs in passenger car motor oils. This change from lower cost diesters to polyols was driven primarily by the need for reduced fuel consumption and lower volatility in modern specifications. They are used in 2-cycle oils as well for the same reasons plus biodegradability.

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Do you mean there's some polyolester that Mobil doesn't know about?

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No. I think that is a polyolester you don't know anything but should have known about.

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It sure smells like a polyolester.

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None of the polyolesters (or even diesters) in my lab have any smell whatsover when cool. Now when heated to high temps, they have this "fatty" odor to them.

[ August 04, 2004, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[Marty]

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MolaKule:

Because they are suppliers of basic polyolester chemistries. They don't normally blend or formulate for production, and they don't give out information as to whom they supply.

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I see. That explains why they mention refrigeration and jet engines, but not automotive.

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So did I, but your statements infer you know all about ester chemistry so I thought maybe you had some information over and above what we already knew here and would be willing to share that with us.

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What I know or don't about ester chemistry is not an issue. There are literally thousands of chemists working for major and minor oil companies, chemical manufacturers, formulaters, bottlers, and marketers. Even Red Line has one:

"In 1986, the addition of Cornell-degreed Roy Howell as chief chemist brought Red Line Synthetic Oil Corporation into a league of its own ...".

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Why didn't you include this sentence from the Hatco website?

"Polyol esters are also the ester of choice for blending with PAOs in passenger car motor oils."

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To what point?

I've repeatedly noted that a bit of polyolester is commonly added to PAO and Group III motor oils, to aid in getting additives in solution, to increase film strength, and so on. In another thread I mentioned adding 6% polyolester to a mix for that very purpose.

You're the shill for Red Line, so I'll leave the overheated propaganda portion of the discussion to you.

I'm just interested in responding to the question about the suitability of Red Line in easy driven cars.


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[Marty]

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MolaKule:

None of the polyolesters (or even diesters) in my lab have any smell whatsover when cool.

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It must be something else in your lab that folks are smelling.


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[MolaKule]

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To what point?

I've repeatedly noted that a bit of polyolester is commonly added to PAO and Group III motor oils, to aid in getting additives in solution, to increase film strength, and so on. In another thread I mentioned adding 6% polyolester to a mix for that very purpose.

You're the shill for Red Line, so I'll leave the overheated propaganda portion of the discussion to you.

I'm just interested in responding to the question about the suitability of Red Line in easy driven cars.

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To what point? You inferred that Hatco produces no esters for automotive applications, that's why!

I resent being called a "shill" buy or for anyone. A shill is decoy for a cheater.

Do you now have to resort to name calling because your responses lack substance and are full of contradictions?

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In another thread I mentioned adding 6% polyolester to a mix for that very purpose.

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Why the 6% value?

[ August 04, 2004, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[MolaKule]

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It must be something else in your lab that folks are smelling.

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Well, I do have an old Ghost Busters Fraud Detector installed!

 

[Marty]

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MolaKule:[/QB]

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To what point? You inferred that Hatco produces no esters for automotive applications, that's why!

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I never wrote that.

In fact, I noted that when Hatco was a division Emery Industries, they made "Frigid Go", a fully formulated diester for automotive use.

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I resent being called a "shill" buy or for anyone.

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And I resent your bullying, accusatory, non-informative responses.

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Well, I do have an old Ghost Busters Fraud Detector installed!

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Is that to detect the fraud that Mobil, Shell, Chevron, Amsoil, and the myriad other manufacturers and formulaters are perpetrating by denying the public access to polyolester based motor oils?

Or is that to detect the fraud that Red Line is perpetrating when it implies the only reason all the other companies aren't using a polyolester base is for "cutting costs by blending into polyalphaolefin base stock "?

Red Line is not a bad oil, but with certain of their friends, they don't need enemies.


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[YZF150]

QuadDriver, miss you. Please phone home.

 

[sbc350gearhead]

No name calling of any kind. If in doubt please read forum rules. Thank you.

 

[Marty]

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Originally posted by sbc350gearhead:
No name calling of any kind. If in doubt please read forum rules. Thank you.

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Is "MolaKule" a name?


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[rugerman1]

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Originally posted by Marty:

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Originally posted by sbc350gearhead:
No name calling of any kind. If in doubt please read forum rules. Thank you.

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Is "MolaKule" a name?


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That response showed me what level you want to take this forum to.Bye Marty