Volvo D12 Rotella T, very high copper

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allan5oh

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http://www.oilanalysis.net/CommonFiles/r...UI=DABWIN_61966

Very strange, the engine was rebuilt 3 years ago with a brand new oil cooler($1000 just for the cooler). Could wrist pin bushings possibly show up as copper? That's what caused the engine to blow 3 years ago.

I see 4 sources of copper from this engine

- bearings
- wrist pin bushings
- oil cooler
- gasket for drain plug

The oil sample was taken from the bottom

The hours is actually 550, not 450. Looks #@$%! good other then the copper.
 
Another thing, I do have access to a picture they took zoomed 200X. I should get a copy of it. It looks like a chunk of copper, not a shaving or a sliver. I wonder if the wrist pin bushings(I think they're bronze) will show up as copper.

Also, tomorrow I'll ask if it is one big chunk, or just a lot of copper.
 
Did you lug the engine?

All other numbers look normal and oil could've gone twice as long.
Change oil and run again. If copper is coming back high, you might have an issue.

More details? bypass filter? maintenance interval? sump capacity? oil consumption?
 
No I don't lug the engine, mostly traveling in the plains with fairly light loads.

No bypass filter, but I just installed one after I drained that oil. I usually change oil every 40k(25k miles) as recommended by Volvo. Sump capacity is about 36 litres. Oil consumption is VERY low. I never have to add oil, it goes from "full" to about 1/3 the way from "add" by the time I change it. According to Volvo literature, from full to add is 6 litres. So in 40-50k KM's I'll burn maybe 4-5 litres.
 
I must add that the thrust washer is another possibility. I really hope it has something to do with the oil cooler, and the problem will fix itself. I'll do another sample at 20k.
 
How long since the oil cooler has been opened up? Also there are possibly bushing in the overhead that could cause high copper. The thrust bearing could be causing high copper, but unless you are starting in too high a gear and really putting a load on the crank you normally wouldn't have enough of a thrust load to wear that bearing.

Was the picture taken at the last rebuild or just recently at the oil sample? Yes, wrist pin bushings could show up as copper. I believe that the wrist pins on that engine are cooled with piston cooling jets/nozzles, if that is the case you might want to inspect them. When the engine was rebuilt did you look at each rod and piston to determine which caused the failure. Or which of the rods/pistons had the worst wear?
 
Quote:

How long since the oil cooler has been opened up?

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It was replaced with the engine overhaul, 3 years ago. It's a real #@$%! to get in there!

Quote:

Also there are possibly bushing in the overhead that could cause high copper.

Click to expand...


I talked to Volvo and they did not mention that, so I don't know if there's copper up there.

Quote:

The thrust bearing could be causing high copper, but unless you are starting in too high a gear and really putting a load on the crank you normally wouldn't have enough of a thrust load to wear that bearing.

Click to expand...


I always start in low gear and ease the clutch into it, I'm very easy on my equipment. Volvo seemed to think it's that too, but I would think there would be more iron wear as well possibly?

Quote:

Was the picture taken at the last rebuild or just recently at the oil sample? Yes, wrist pin bushings could show up as copper. I believe that the wrist pins on that engine are cooled with piston cooling jets/nozzles, if that is the case you might want to inspect them. When the engine was rebuilt did you look at each rod and piston to determine which caused the failure. Or which of the rods/pistons had the worst wear?

Click to expand...


The picture was taken with the oil sample, I've only done one so far.

#6 piston was the worst, the bushing completely failed and the piston was massively scuffing. Other pistons had scuffing too. I think it actually was like that for a while(other than the bushing failing), before I even bought it. I think someone either starved it of oil or overheated it(low coolant). Would make sense that #6 would go first.
 
Quote:

Consider shorter intervals - 25k is a long time for any oil.

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25k is manufacturers recommendation, everything else on the UOA looks fantastic.

Why would OEM recommended intervals cause high copper PPM's? I'm not trying to be condescending or anything, I'd really like to know.
 
A couple other things:

The wrist pin bushings are actually on the pistons. The pin is press fit into the rod.

I live in a very cold climate, and have had oil pressure issues a couple times when it's really cold. It's been as cold as -30 C, rotella T has a pour point of -15 C. Maybe the lack of flow(probably doesn't shoot out the squirters at all) hurt the bushings. I hope not.
 
Yep, lack of cold oil flow will cause issues and inadequate lubrication.

Avoid cold start by using oil AND coolant heaters.

Consider a full synthetic HDEO. 0w40, 5w40, and 10w40 full synthetic diesel oils are available. Northerners have better HDEO synth choices, eh!

His huge sump allows the long OCI which isn't a problem. Other then copper, that oil could've gone 2-3 times as long!

Since you're NOT lugging her, I would only think that winter took its toll on the oil with cold starts.

32ooo miles/550hr = ALL highway driving

Another thing worth doing is topping off the oil. Even a few quarts over the interval will refresh additives(prevent cooler corrosion, boost AW/EP and TBN) and help with oil temp control. The more in the sump, the happier your engine will be. Add a quart every 10000km!

What bypass filter kit did you install?

I'll guess that your next sample will look better since winter is over and you now have soot controlling bypass filter.
 
I do have a good coolant heater(espar) but I haven't ran an oil heater. Would a good magnetic heater work?

I put in the kleenoil system, did have some problems with it though. All fixed now. It was put in after the oil sample.

I think we've narrowed it down, it's probably the wrist pin bushings from cold starts like you said. I just really hope I didn't damage them too much.

Now I have even more reason to switch to petrocanada duron full synthetic 5w40.
 
Magnetic(or glue on) pan heater is an easy solution to assist espar during cold starts. An oil heater may also allow you to continue to u$e the 15w40 oils!

What size Kleenoil? how expensive are the replacement elements? how often do you need(or plan) to change the elements?

Duron 5w40 or DuronE 10w40 are great choices. Esso XD3 and Rotella 0w40's are other options.

Hopefully, your next UOA looks good. If so, you won't even need to change the oil. Change filters, top off, and keep on running. Cost of 40 quarts of synthetic, and the bypass, should easily be made up with longer oil change intervals.
 
More than likely the high copper is from a bit of scuffing on the wrist pin bushing from lack of oil during the cold weather. You probably didn't do enough damage to cause a failure. Not sure exactly how that engine's oil supply is laid out, but probably 6 is the last to get oil and coolant so either low coolant or lack of oil will show up on #6 first. If the piston scuffing was mostly on the skirts then I would say running hard cold is the primary cause and probably lack of oil/fuel dilution as the second.

Are these two piece pistons, steel crown aluminum skirt?

You may have some extra plugs in the oil pan, if that is the case you can probably get a real good submersible oil heater. If you don't have any extra plugs a magnetic or glue-on heater will work well. I think with a synthetic oil, even a 5w40, and an oil heater you should be in good shape.

No, lugging the truck off the line causing thrust bearing wear will not usually increase iron because the point of the thrust bearing is to keep the iron parts from touching under a high thrust load situation. If it's an excessive situation then you could possibly get some rod/fillet wear, but that's doubtful.
 
They are a two piece piston, yes.

I'm not overly worried about what happened 3 years ago, I hope it's not related. When I did get the truck, it had a coolant leak(external). You needed to add a gallon once every 2-3 weeks. I have a feeling that somebody "forgot" to add coolant, and going downhill it overheated the rear pistons, scuffing them a bit. Eventually it blew, but only after I bought the SOB.

I do have extra plugs in the oil pan, and it is a metal pan. One of those plugs I'm using as a drain for the kleenoil(plug is tapped). I wonder how much adding an oil heater like that would cost. It would work wonderfully with the espar.

You know what guys, thanks for everything, you've really helped me out here.

The plan is to go about 20k(km's) and do another test. If it's negative, then I'll definitely change the oil to a synthetic in winter, maybe all year round. If it's positive... I'll drive it off a cliff.
 
http://www.dysonanalysis.com/
have a comprehensive analysis done by Terry at Dyson, he's the best there is...does commerical, hvy construction. industrial, OTR and off hwy engine lube fluids indepth analysis...best $50 US you'll ever spend on engine lube protection....have him look at your tranny fluid and rear end lubes also, the old ounce of prevention....call first, he can probably tell much from your first UOA


http://www.reddyheat.com/productType.cgi?type=2&target=10078.2.1-2-&sub=10078
get one of these...will run off a 1kw inverter for the hour it takes to heat up crankcase...additional benefit of warm cab and the tranny lube is not like warm asphalt
40k BTU is perfect fit...will fit in truck side box or trailer side box and doesn't require commercial 120v dependancy...will run on #1 or #2 but no smoke off clear heating kerosene...used on hvy. equipment in cold climates
crank up the heater before the first cup of coffee and she's ready to roll after the second cup and phone calls...
 
There are several manufactures for oil heaters. I'd just go to the local truck shop you buy your parts at and see if they have anything. Most heaters are not that expensive. I pay about $US100-125 for the 1500w heaters that I screwed into the oils pans on our Cummins that operate in very cold weather.

A site sponsor has a couple thread-in oil heaters.

With a two piece piston, the skirt will grow much faster than the crown, so normally you will see really high aluminum if you are getting a piston too hot. Since this is your first UOA I wouldn't get too worried yet. You need to do a couple UOA's to get a trend for really meaningful data. Some engines throw high metals all their life.

A bit different situation but, I have a Ford that is my daily driver that has had high copper since new. Even now after it has some miles on it, the thing still shows high copper. I had a parts-chasing truck that always showed very high iron, went 318K miles before the driver ended it's life. Keep and eye on it, you most likely don't have anything to worry about. I wouldn't recommend driving off a cliff, it's really hard on the chrome lugnut covers.

Just noticed you are in Winnipeg, know anyone at New Flyer? Work on a lot of their stuff down here.
 
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