98 VW Beetle 2.0L, 5000 km sample, Mobil1 5W50

[il_signore97]

I'm posting this UOA up for a friend of mine that has aquired a 1998 VW Beetle 2.0L 4-cyl a little while ago.

This car has quite the history since he got it! To start, it pretty much burns up any 30 weight oil in very short order! I mean, the entire crankcase will be sucked dry in 2,000 km of driving. Having said that, my not very car savvy friend has run this engine almost dry before, several times might I add!!! Switching to a 40 weight helped a bit, and finally, we've decided on Mobil1 5W50 which seems to have almost completely stopped the oil usage problem. Now it only uses 1/4 to 1/2 qt every 5,000 km, which is not all that bad. I haven't got around to doing a compression test for him yet to see if the rings or valve guides are bad (or perhaps even a head gasket problem).

This leads me into my next bit of info. This car seems to produce a ton of white/gooey /milky substance underneath the oil fill cap (inside the valve cover basically). To me, that is definitely a tell-tale sign of antifreeze ingestion into the crankcase.

So, at only 5,000 km, we decided to drop the oil, have it sampled, and change it just to be on the safe side. It was refilled with new Mobil1 5W50 and a new filter. We cleaned all of the white goo inside the filler neck and underneath the cap, and it returned within a few days of driving.

However, the analysis was quite surprising. NO antifreeze found!!! Here it is:


5,000 km on oil and filter
(1.5 months approximate time)

135,000 km total on the car / engine.

Driving is mostly highway, but includes stop and go traffic at least twice a day.

Al 3
Cr 0
Fe 7
Cu 1
Pb 2
Sn 0
Moly 68
Ni 0
Mn 0
Ag 0
Ti 0
K 0
B 102
Si 5
Na 8
Ca 2303
Mg 15
P 757
Zn 901
Ba 0

Viscosity @ 212F: 75.4 Sus
Flashpoint: 405 F
Fuel: Antifreeze: 0.0 %
Water: 0.0 %
Insolubles: 0.3 %


Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.

 

[JAG]

The goo was from moisture buildup due to cold weather/short trips. Looks good.

 

[ThirdeYe]

Yep, what JAG said. There was a post recently about someone's brand new Toyota doing the same thing, due to short trips & moisture.

 

[TeeDub]

The white goo is from all the polymeric thickener necessary to formulate an SAE 5w-50, mixing with moisture in the crankcase.

When it warms up, try a 15w-50 or 20w-50 synlube instead....

 

[il_signore97]

Thanks all for the responses. I'm glad that you all agree that the white stuff is caused by moisture.

I know that short trips can do this, but this car is driven relatively far everyday (~30 km trips), and definitely warms up fully almost all the time its driven. I figured that since it's mostly used for longer trips, that moisture shouldn't be a problem.

I will advise my friend to switch to a 15W50 or 20W50 when the hot weather comes around.

 

[Patman]

Quote:

---

I will advise my friend to switch to a 15W50 or 20W50 when the hot weather comes around.

---

I don't see the need to switch from 5w50 M1 though, it's obviously working very well here!

 

[StoicDude]

You might want to check out VWVortex for more info.

The white buildup underneath the oil cap, as well as sludge looking buildup, is fairly common on the 2.0.

Also, there have been numerous posts there that some 2.0 engines got their pistons rings installed incorrectly (upside down if I remember correctly) and they were consuming very high amounts of oil.

Good luck.

The UOA looks good, but the 2.0 engine is just a pain in the behind. I know it because my father has one in a Golf.

 

[il_signore97]

Patman,

I know that the UOA looks good, but perhaps TeeDub suggested switching for the summer months to avoid the white buildup. I guess if there were another oil (with closer base and operating temp viscosity grades) that does not cause the white buildup, but still achieves good UOA results, then that would be a good choice when it's warm out. But for sure, the M1 5W50 is necessary for the winter months. I wouldn't want to try and start that thing at -30 with 20W50 in there!!! What are your thoughts on Castrol Syntec 5W50 instead of M1??


StoicDude,

Thanks for the reference. I did some poking around over there after reading your post and I do see that the white stuff is common. I'm not sure if my friend's car is affected by the backwards rings, but at least it doesn't burn any of the 50 weight oil. Since he got it for next to nothing and just wants it to run for as long as it can, he'll likely not worry about getting this issue repaired if it does exist on his car so long as the 50 weight protects well and doesn't get eaten up too quickly!!! It is quite a pain though from what I've read so far!

Thanks.

 

[Patman]

Quote:

---

What are your thoughts on Castrol Syntec 5W50 instead of M1??

---

That might be worth giving a try as well!

FWIW, my mom has a 2001 Golf with the 2.0 engine and I noticed that milky goop under her oil filler cap the other day as well. I put Castrol 0w30 in her car. Her engine uses about a liter every 5 or 6000km (not good compared to other cars, but pretty good compared to other VW 2.0s!)

 

[TeeDub]

Patman,

Ask a GM powertrain/lube engineer what he thinks of the use of SAE 5w-50 oils in the Corvette engines.

As I recall, when the first generation 5w-50's hit the market around 1990, there were a number of 'Vette engines that had this same milky goop issue with short trip service. It was traced back to the # of polymeric thicken needed to make this wide range multigrade.

 

[Patman]

I know exactly what you're saying here Ted, and I would never personally recommend a crazy viscosity like 5w50 to anyone either, but in this particular engine, with this guy's driving patterns, it seems to be working very well! So if it ain't broke....

 

[Jim 5]

Quote:

---

The white goo is from all the polymeric thickener necessary to formulate an SAE 5w-50, mixing with moisture in the crankcase.

When it warms up, try a 15w-50 or 20w-50 synlube instead....

---

TeeDub,

We don't really have 15w-50 in Canada anymore. The last I have seen was Mobil 1 red cap 15w-50. This was all phased out last year.

Offerings in synthetic 50wt's are pretty skinny here these days. What is readily available in most stores is only M1 5w-50 and Castrol Syntec 5w-50.

 

[TeeDub]

Jim,

In that case I think a thicker 5w-40/HDEO or 10w-40, PAO/Ester synthetic would be my choice in this situation. At moderately cold temps a 10w-40 is going to pump at least as well as an SAE 5w-50 anyway, based on the slope of their respective viscosity/temp curves.

TS

 

[il_signore97]

Patman,

So your mom's car has the white goop under the fill cap even with a much more reasonable viscosity spread such as GC 0W30? So I guess there would be no difference between Castrol 5W50 vs. Mobil 5W50 (wrt the white stuff anyway). I should mention that in the fall (before my friend switched to synthetic 5W50) he was using 20W50 Castrol GTX as a quick fix for the oil burning problem. There was still white stuff under the cap at that point. It generally comes back after a few days of driving.

There was never any white stuff while using a 5W30 oil since the oil would never stay in the crankcase longer than a few days!!! I still remember pulling his dipstick and finding it bone dry (it was sickening)...


TeeDub,

Are there any other suggestions for the winter months that you can think of? This beetle just eats up 30 weights in short order, and 40 weights don't last that long in there either. I guess he could use a 10W40 synthetic, but he'd have to be adding oil every week or so (doing 60-80 km per day of driving).

 

[Patman]

I only noticed the white goop showing up recently, after the colder than usual weather we've had the past couple of months. In the summertime it's not there. So I think it's something that occurs in a lot of 2.0 VWs in cold weather, no matter what oil you use. It doesn't seem to hurt anything though.

 

[il_signore97]

Patman,

I did some more research on this issue, and apparently many owners have solved their issues by replacing the oil cap seal, the crankcase breather seals, and in some cases, the valve cover seal. Most people report having no more build-up after putting on new seals.

And it does look like it happens with all oils - one guy that lives in a very cold climate up north was using 5W20 and it still made sludge all over the cap and filler neck.

So I guess it's safe to say that as long as it's isolated to the cap and filler neck, it's not an issue. I would only be worried if it ended up inside the engine in locations other than just the filler neck.

Thanks again.

 

[Patman]

Thanks for that info!

Although I'm not sure it's worth the effort to bother with changing any of that stuff on my mom's car since she doesn't even drive it that much to begin with (3-4000 miles per year). That engine will basically last forever for her.

 

[TeeDub]

This oil analysis looks fine and if you're convinced the white goop is due to the short trip driving in cold weather, I'd stick with the 5w-50.

These results indicate you could step out to a 8000km OCI. Are you running the synthetic blend media, MANN oil filters or some cheap aftermarket brand? A higher efficiency oil filter will help keep the total solids levels in check better.

I believe that Amsoil is releasing an "EAO-37" (WIX 51393 replacement), oil filter for many of these 1.8L and 2.0L, VW/Audi engines next month and that would be my recommendation here. You could probably just change it every other time you drained the oil in this case.

TS

 

[il_signore97]

Patman,

No problem. In my friend's case, he's probably not going to bother changing those items either since he's tight on cash and just wants to keep this car going strong for another few years with minimal outlay.


TeeDub,

This OCI was done on a regular Fram POS oil filter. It was only meant to go 5000 km for purposes of getting it analyzed. My friend would really like to work up to 15,000 km OCI's. I know that it's slightly ambitious, but since he's tight on cash and would like to minimize oil changes (he does 35,000-40,000 km per year), it seems like a doable target. He was going to start using the Mann oil filters for the longer OCI's, but I'll probably get him some Amsoil EaO filters once they become available since those are what I use already in my vehicles (great filters, absolutely love them). Obviously, my friend would validate his choice of OCI with further UOA as necessary until all comes out well.


Thanks for the great advice and discussion on this issue. Any further comments welcome and much appreciated as always!

 

[Patman]

The Amsoil oil filter is definitely a great choice if he's going to go 15,000 km between changes. As an alternative, if he doesn't want to spend the $$ on the Amsoil, he could always go with the OEM VW filter, which is rated for 2 years or 30,000 km (and says so right on the can!)