87 Cadillac Seville 4.1L -- Drippy Transmission

[ekpolk]

Well, the subject line tells much of the story, but there's more. This is our family's No. 3 car, which my 18 year old son drives. My mother-in-law had owned it since it less than a year old, and even after all those years, the car still has only 58,800 miles as of today! Last year, she got a wild hair to own a BMW, and since the trade value was so low, she just gave it to my son. I'd have to say that the major stressor that this car has faced has been the effect of sitting idle in a garage.

This car has been a little "drippy" since we received it over a year ago, which given the age, didn't seem too surprising. Over the last few months, though, the car has been leaving ever increasing amounts of ATF on the ground. The trans functions very well, and the fluid is nice and clean, as the car has been maintained over the years.

This weekend, we did a proper check and found the fluid level about 1.5 quarts low (ouch...). I used an extractor, and sucked out about four quarts of whatever was in there, and then topped it up with a 16 oz bottle of transmission stop leak and Valvoline MaxLife ATF (which claims to be beneficial for older vehicles).

Obviously, I'm hoping to minimize the leaking, without the need of breaking into things and actually replacing seals ($$$).

I'm all ears if any of you have any additional thoughts or suggestions.

 

[unDummy]

20 year old? any maintenance history?

You need to find where the leak is coming from. Could be a bad hose or loose clamp. Maybe its just leaky pan gasket or axle seal.

All fluids need full flush/bleed....
And low levels are very damaging to a transmission. Sorry, but being 3 pints low will lead to early death.

The high mileage ATF is a good start but will not fix something broken or failing.

If there is a known leak, someone needs to be more proactive with the fluid levels. Running it low in the past year is negligent.

 

[ekpolk]

Yes, age 20, and for the most part, the car has had timely care, mostly at a dealer (mother-in-law just took it in a couple times a year for various servicings -- I cringe at what she paid...), so neglect is not an issue, just age. No, it's won't need a total fluid transplant (except perhaps brakes, which we'll probably do soon, just because). Again, the ATF in this car is a nice cherry red, and even smells fresh. PSF (the clear GM spec type) looks good too.

We have checked fluids. Until the last month or so, we were seeing only individual drip-drops, and quantities had been normal, so it's not as if we let it run down over a whole year. Agree, we need to see what's going on. What I described was just a first "quick jab" at the problem. If it works, great, because this is not a vehicle I'm going to sink a lot of money into. If it does not, well, we'll have to go from there.

 

[ekpolk]

Wow, it is the pan gasket (with 99%) certainty. I'm away during the week, and just got back to this car today. My son had called me Wednesday because after last week's addition of the gallon of fresh ATF and the "stop leak" compound, it started bleeding badly, and I of course, told him to park it and not move it. Today, the puddle underneath looked huge, but upon careful exam, the trans was "only" 1/2 quart low. Still, pretty bad for one week!

Anyway, where it was hard to discern anything for sure under the car last week, it's now remarkably clear. The trans pan gasket is very wet looking, wet to the touch, and ATF is dripping, slowly, from several places around the perimeter. It's astonishingly bad! I'm no mechanic, but I've never seen, or personally heard, of a gasket this bad. Perhaps the fresh fluid did clean away a crud seal that had allowed the gasket to dry out. And so much for that "stop leak" stuff -- ha!

Looks like I'll be eating a day of leave on Monday to find a good, economical place to get it repaired.

Any thoughts? The Autozone guy had no parts, but kindly warned me away from the cork part they had in their system. Felpro? Any other good names to look for? I'm sorta cringing at the idea of going to the Caddy dealer (though they did take pity on my son a month or so ago, and fixed his haywire mechanized trunk latch for under $100...). I'm all ears for any thoughts or suggestions.

 

[The Critic]

Quote:

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Any thoughts? The Autozone guy had no parts, but kindly warned me away from the cork part they had in their system. Felpro? Any other good names to look for? I'm sorta cringing at the idea of going to the Caddy dealer (though they did take pity on my son a month or so ago, and fixed his haywire mechanized trunk latch for under $100...). I'm all ears for any thoughts or suggestions.

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The "OE type" cork gaskets are fine. After all, it lasted you 20 years, what else could you ask for? According to a transmission supplier, there is an updated fiber gasket that is now available for the bottom pan of your transmission. (Transmission model: GM 440-T4)

The bottom pan is the portion of the transmission that is removed for routine servicing, so ANY repair shop will be able to perform this task for you. I cannot speak for FL's labor rates, but here in Sacramento, $90/hr is average (if not lower average) for most transmission and general automotive repair shops.

A transmission fluid and filter replacement generally bills for 1/2 to 2/3 hr labor, book rate. With mark-up, a shop would charge about $20 for the gasket and filter kit, and another $10 for 4-5 quarts of Dexron III(H) Automatic Transmission Fluid. You're looking at $75-$100 for this service depending on where you go. A dealership should charge similarly, however the genuine GM filter may run $40+ at retail, so their final bill may be between $125-$150.

A little suggestion? Regardless of where you go, head out to your local Pep Boys or GM dealership and purchase the Dexron VI fluid. It is the newest revision of the Dexron type transmission fluids. The fluid is far superior to Dexron III, even some synthetic versions of Dexron III. $5.99/qt in the Pennzoil brand from Pep Boys, sometimes a bit less under the GM vehicle care brand from your local GM dealership.

 

[ekpolk]

Quote:

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The "OE type" cork gaskets are fine. After all, it lasted you 20 years, what else could you ask for? According to a transmission supplier, there is an updated fiber gasket that is now available for the bottom pan of your transmission. (Transmission model: GM 440-T4)

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Mike: I'm so-so on cork. This is not the original, but I don’t know how long the replacement has been there. My father-in-law (may he rest in peace) took good care of the car (at least they took it to the Cad dealer every year for major service, oil changes more frequently). So I know it’s been replaced, and in fact, you can see the pan bolts are somewhat beaten on. At any rate, it may not be the fault of the cork that’s on right now, but it bleeding insanely, all around the perimeter.

I had thought that this Seville (87, 4.1L V-8) had only one model of trans (the 440T4), but the computer at AZ shows a second one (I didn’t write it down...). Another reason to go to the dealer, I guess. The AZ guys could not do a determination by VIN. Of course, they might just have bad data. We’ll see how that pans out (ooooops, bad pun...).

. . .

Quote:

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A little suggestion? Regardless of where you go, head out to your local Pep Boys or GM dealership and purchase the Dexron VI fluid. It is the newest revision of the Dexron type transmission fluids. The fluid is far superior to Dexron III, even some synthetic versions of Dexron III. $5.99/qt in the Pennzoil brand from Pep Boys, sometimes a bit less under the GM vehicle care brand from your local GM dealership.

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Not sure about the Dex-6. This trans just had an awful reaction to a fresh half-fill of MaxLife Dex-III. Tongue in cheek, I may go looking for bottles of used ATF! Seriously, I don’t want to provoke this box any more than I already have. Given that the car has only 59k miles, I’m confident that it’s mechanically sound, but I’m worried about seals, false seals, and in fact, any of the parts that are “conditioned” by exposure to ATF. I realize it’s impossible, but I’d like to get back to the “stable” condition it was in right before it started dripping.

 

[The Critic]

Cork just requires extra care during installation...proper torque is crucial and the application of a gasket sealer is often necessary. If used properly, it should last just as long as the "better" gaskets...many older vehicles use cork and have no issues with leaks.

Dexron VI should be no worse than ANY fresh Dexron III as far as leaks go. It is not a full synthetic fluid that may raise the slightest concern about seal swell, etc. If it helps, I used Walmart Dexron III(H) ($7.00/gal) in my mom's 96 Saturn for 20k+ miles until I fixed the gasket leak a few days ago and it made it no worse than before. You'll be fine with Dexron VI...I think your best bet is to just avoid the "advertised" full synthetic fluids...

 

[g20ooh]

Elpolk ,

Two things come to mind here based on your info .


1 ) The increased leakage maybe from false seal cleaning as per your posts or it may not .
What I'm thinking here is that it could be an issue of pan fluid level .
In fact , if I understand your timeline of events and miles driven that " sounds " more likely .
Its also possible its a combination of both although again , it sounds more like a classical case of a dried out pan that hemorrhages as soon as the pan fluid level is restored ie fluid level exceeds at least part of the time the pan gasket " line/level "
Well ,in any case the solution is the same .


2) I'm not a believer in mixing ATF formulations in general and in old ATs esp . Not trying to be critical here , but the odds are you now have two different fluids ( Valvoline and " Caddy Dealer Fluid " ( likely to be quite good - less likely to be Valvoline ) and possibly/likely two different stopleak chemistries in play here . Then again you may not - so the question becomes who used what .
I would be very careful here in this regard - esp on this year and type of vehicle/engine /tranny and also in consideration of age and previous history .
I'd ask the Caddy Dealer to print you a copy of the cars' history and what fluids they have used .
If you think its strictly a pan gasket leak thats easily repairable then , I too like they idea of GM DEX6 here although you certainly could use a good DEX III with no problem .

Some odds and ends that might be good to know for later ;

The key difference between a winner and a loser on this vehicle/engine/transmission combination without a doubt is good cooling system maintenance .

There was also a factory HD cooling system option that was worth its weight in gold . It would be worth knowing if you have it .


At this point I'd be pretty conservative ie generous on my oil maintenance . You and others may feel differently but I'd do the old 3Mo/3K which ever comes first without fail if conventional oil and filters are used .( Don't feed the oil retaining gaskets on this motor the way it likes and you will develop leaks - quickly ) .
I would also see if one of the GM " upgraded "/ UPF ? (can't remember proper term ) filters will fit and is readily available - its usually a great way to get a very good filter cheap - although your local market will be the final determinant on that as an option .



I would really work from what ever your FIL/Caddy Dealer was doing that got the car this far irrespective of the low mileage .

 

[g20ooh]

Quote:

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Cork just requires extra care during installation...proper torque is crucial and the application of a gasket sealer is often necessary. If used properly, it should last just as long as the "better" gaskets...many older vehicles use cork and have no issues with leaks.

Dexron VI should be no worse than ANY fresh Dexron III as far as leaks go. It is not a full synthetic fluid that may raise the slightest concern about seal swell, etc. If it helps, I used Walmart Dexron III(H) ($7.00/gal) in my mom's 96 Saturn for 20k+ miles until I fixed the gasket leak a few days ago and it made it no worse than before. You'll be fine with Dexron VI...I think your best bet is to just avoid the "advertised" full synthetic fluids...

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Hmmmmm .... I know its been discussed before on this forum in at least 4 or 5 threads so maybe I'm remembering wrong , but I thought DEXRON VI is a somewhat specific Group III Basestock combined with a syn/conv additive pack of roughly 12-15-18% .
Either way , I agree its no more leaky than anything else .
I'm running it in 2 Infinitis and 1 Olds and I really like the stuff .
If you use the GM online store price the Dealer will match . Last Fall , that meant 4.56/Q - if bought per gallon - 4 gallon min online - my dealer didn't care past two .


My experience tells me that cork gaskets that sit for long periods of time or get " overwarm often/ hot " will dry out and leak faster than " rubberized " alternatives . ( ATF ) Regular use - no problem - almost as good . (With the right sealer ) .

 

[The Critic]

Quote:

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Hmmmmm .... I know its been discussed before on this forum in at least 4 or 5 threads so maybe I'm remembering wrong , but I thought DEXRON VI is a somewhat specific Group III Basestock combined with a syn/conv additive pack of roughly 12-15-18% .

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http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article000505058.cfm?x=b11,0,w

Correct, it is Group III. However, I have no clue if the additive package is "synthetic," but it seems unlikely or inapplicable.

I still recommend the DEXRON VI though...it's his best choice for optimal transmission longevity.

 

[ekpolk]

UPDATE:

Well, the car has a belly full of new ATF, though I'm sure it's "just" D-III, though I've rethunk my concern about D-6, and might transfuse some in next weekend.

Instead of the dealer, I took the car to a highly respected local independent shop this morning. We did the trans, flushed and bled the brakes, and the PS too.

The encouraging news is that the pan and what you can see of the inside of the trans all looked clean enough to eat off of. The gasket they used was a heavy "rubber" type. So far, everything looks nice and dry. We hope it stays that way.

The downside: most surprisingly, they underfilled the trans. Again, the shop has an A+ rep, and the place generally looks surgically clean. The tech was obviously smart and well versed in what he was doing. Yet after the drive home (thankfully only about two miles), it took both my remaining quarts of MaxLife to get close to the add line. When I got back to the shop, they virtually fell all over themselves to make it right. Incidentally, the car showed no symptoms at all, either way (not even a suggestive sound). They re-looked up the add figures, and it showed the amount the tech had measured from the drum. Hmmmmmmm.

Anyway, having done a bit more homework on D-6, I'm more inclined to extract out all the bulk D-III that I can and give the new stuff a try.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[The Critic]

I guess you could use the bulk Dexron III(H) as a flush, or perhaps add 6 ounces of Auto-RX to it for 1000 miles, and then add Dexron VI?

On some transmissions, a few miles of driving may open up a valve that allows fluid into the side cover, thus causing a drastic drop in the fluid level. This may've been one of them.

How did they service the PS? Flush machine? I would only cringe at how much these three services ran you.

 

[ekpolk]

Well, cost is fairly "relative" in this instance. For us, this car is already a "freebie" in that my mother-in-law just gave it to us. By the book, it is worth very little, but functionally, it is highly valuable as a functioning vehicle. Therefore, I don't mind occasionally spending a couple hundred bucks to keep it healthy for as long as we can.

PS flush was by machine. Didn't see him do the brakes, though I know he did as the fluid in the reservoir looks much nicer. BTW, the old fluid, when strip tested, showed substantial moisture, so it really needed to go too.

I actually thought about using some ARX (I have a couple bottles in my stash) but at this point, I don't think I want to do anything more to upset the applecart. Obviously, there's a lot more to a trans than the pan area, but that was so dramatically clean already, I would have to assume it's pretty clean elsewhere. And it functions perfectly, so... At this point, I think we'll just keep the fluid fresh, and keep an eye on it.