Mobil 1 synthetic atf vs. Dexron VI

[Whitewolf]

I agree that pointing at brand names without full information is not a good idea.
The comments about oxidation do not surprise me though. The is an SAE paper outlining the performance of DEXRON-VI, and it is a HUGE improvement over DEXRON-III. I have a copy somewhere but I can't find it right now. When I do I'll post the number so that anyone that is interested can take a look.

 

[Whitewolf]

OK,I found it. Actually there are two. The SAE numbers are 2006-01-3421, and 2006-01-3242.

 

[pbm]

I replaced the factory ATF in my 02' Buick Century with Mobil 1 (at 36K). This car has the same 4T65E tranny as your Lumina and the Mobil 1 performs great. I highly recommend Mobil 1 ATF in this transmission.

Onion:
At what mileage did your lower i/m gasket start leaking and do you have any tips as I am going to replace mine as soon as it warms up a bit. Also, how does the 3.1 run with the 40 weight oil. Did you ever do a UOA with it? I may run 15/40 in the summer if I thought it was a good combo.

 

[Winston]

Who do you think spent more money developing the spec for their ATF? GM for Dex VI or Mobil for M1 syn ATF? My bet goes to GM. Plus, it sounds like it is cheaper than M1.

PT1's tests only tested one aspect of the fluid though. So, even if he had specifics of the fluids tested, it is not a test that can be used to determine which fluid is "better."

 

[unDummy]

No one is arguing that GM DexronVI isn't better the DexronIII. DexronIII wasn't anything special to begin with.

Now, concerning the DVI vs. M1 vs. AMs testing, what were the specifics and setup? What was the fluid flow rate, temp, load,.... that supposedly proved D-VI the best?
And, how do those tests relate to the real world?
Sorry, but anyone can manipulate bench testing variables to create an outcome.

And, if anyone wants to quote SAE papers, feel free to post the paper. Not everyone wants to join SAE or waste beer budget on the papers. Otherwise, don't bother mentioning them. Do the SAE papers compare GM Dexron III vs D-VI, or does it also include the boutique fluids too?

 

[onion]

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At what mileage did your lower i/m gasket start leaking and do you have any tips as I am going to replace mine as soon as it warms up a bit. Also, how does the 3.1 run with the 40 weight oil. Did you ever do a UOA with it? I may run 15/40 in the summer if I thought it was a good combo.

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I bought the car about a year ago from a fleet auction at the local state college- it had 159K miles on it. The lower intake manifold (LIM) gasket was leaking a bit externaly, and I've owned two of these engines before- so I bought it with the understanding that I might as well go ahead and change the gasket. Here's a thread of mine on another site that gives all the gory details.

http://60degreev6.com/showthread.php?t=32325&highlight=intake+gasket

It might be a good idea to post on that thread if you have detailed questions. Lots of good info on GM 60 degree V6's.

I don't know what year your engine is, but they changed these engines several times over the years- but they're very similar from 1994 and up. My advice and part numbers on the above thread will generally apply to a 1999 (I THINK) and up 3100. There are small differences, and different gasket sets depending on years.

Here's the absolute most important thing I can tell you about that engine: KEEP THEM PUSHRODS IN ORDER!!!!!1@!#@!$. I can't stress this enough. The intake and exhaust pushrods are different lenghts, and if you put the engine back together with two swapped, then it'll run the head and/or a piston as soon as you crank the engine. Folks post all the time on that V6 message board who have just FUBARed their engine this way. Beware...

I've run both 10W30 and 15W40 in my other 3100 engine ('94 Corsica), and I can't tell a bit of difference in how they run. I've never done an oil analysis on either engine (too cheap, too lazy), so I can't give you any hard data. I mainly run 15W40 because I'm a diesel mechanic and often get leftovers for free... and I rationalize this by noting that most heavy duty 15W40's are good quality oils, and thicker is obviously better

.

But back to the topic at hand. I already have enough dexron 6 for the 4t65E, and this thread has nearly convinced me to go with the same for the 4t60E. Still not much more than speculation and hearsay, though... real data would be nice, but seems scarce at this point.

 

[PT1]

I didn't write the test but it was done for an AWD tcase application for appproximate time for destruction for fluid loss ie leaking seal. The test was done to simulate lubrication starvation. We get the oils from GM & Mobil and the amsoil guy...but the GM dexronVI was in a black bottle with a blue GM label. I think someone asked whether Mobil was better than Dexron VI...my vote is for DexronVI...but as for the Amsoil...don't know much about those obscure boutique oils because we only deal with mainstream lubricants. If I was going to run a boutique oil I would choose Redline because that is what you see on the racing circuits. All of our lube guys think Redline is best anyway. Didn't mean to ruffle the feathers just saw a test on ATF and here is my $.02

 

[onion]

Your too sense is greatly appreciated. It's the closest to real test results that I've come across so far.

Even though I said I wasn't interested in Amsoil... I did some looking around and I see that there's an "Amsoil store" here in Wichita. How much does it cost? Anybody got any testing that indicated that it's better than Dex 6?

 

[pbm]

Onion: Thanks for the info. I am aware of the leaky i/m issue and had my first ever UOA done at approx 76K. Sure enough I had a little potassium in the oil and I was advised by Blackstone to keep an eye on it. I've purchased the Fel-Pro PermaDry gasket, new bolts (complete with threadlocker already applied) and will begin the job as soon as the weather warms up a little. The dealer tried to sell me a tube of "Genuine GM" sealant to ensure that the bolts don't leak but after spending $45 for 8 bolts I passed on another $20 for a tube of teflon thread sealant that I can get at Home Depot for about $4. Do you think it is necessay to use this type sealant? I appreciate the lead to that website. Thanks

 

[GMorg]

unDummy wrote: "if anyone wants to quote SAE papers, feel free to post the paper"

I think that copyright infringement should be avoided. So, I would not recommend posting the article. Alternatively, one can post the abstract or provide enough details from the paper to support an argument.

I think that providing a citation without providing the complete article is acceptable. In fact, it is the "norm" in all other media.

 

[Winston]

Thanks for the Data PT1. Yes, it was not peer reviewed and published as an SAE paper, but it is still data based on tests of different fluids. Yea, I am not going to use the results to claim that it determined that one fluid was better or worse than the other, but it is still interesting data. As far as manipulating the test parameters, it does not sound like they were trying to design a test that would make DVI score higher.

 

[Mokanic]

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PT1, First, can we assume that DexronIV is a typo? Second, which version of Amsoil ATF was tested - newer, thinner version? Similarly, which DexronVI approved fluid did you test?

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Sorry, yes Dexron VI, I don't know which of the Amsoil was tested but I am not the test engineer I am an application guy but sit right next to the lab and get to see all the testing. One of the guys has an inlaw who sells Amsoil and he brings some in all the time to see how well it works. Don't know much about it except the DexronVI was better because it survived some serious heat and the amsoil burned out along with the dexronIII. The Mobil1 came in #2 but was almost burned out. Our guys do their own tests where they put needle roller bearing assemblies or small planetary gear sets or chain drives on a dyno and overload it until it starts burning the lubricants and then deforms the metals. This testing is used mainly for non-clutch automotive applications as clutches would be long gone under this severe test. I can't give out any data or I would lose my job in a NY minute. But the DexronVI is way better than the Dexron III for sure.

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Mobile 1 tested better than Amsoil? Am I understanding correctly? Hmmmm...

 

[PT1]

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Thanks for the Data PT1. Yes, it was not peer reviewed and published as an SAE paper, but it is still data based on tests of different fluids. Yea, I am not going to use the results to claim that it determined that one fluid was better or worse than the other, but it is still interesting data. As far as manipulating the test parameters, it does not sound like they were trying to design a test that would make DVI score higher.

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Just the opposite actually. The customer wants to continue to use DexronIII because of cost reduction but this unit only has a splash lube sump. (no pump) and the chain has to carry the lube at an uphill angle (similar to a motorcycle primary chaincase)and lube 2 bearing assemblies. We objected to the DexronIII and wanted a 75w90 lubricant but had cold splash issues. So this has not been resolved and is in the argument stage.

The lubricant has to be thin enough to splash lube in freezing weather but also able to ride the chain up the hill to cover the bearings without throwing off.....

Not my design...

But my vots is for the DexronVI because the amsoil & mobil1 both had a tendency to throw off (as I think both would cling etter?) which doesn't make any sense but that is the answer.

 

[onion]

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Onion: Thanks for the info. I am aware of the leaky i/m issue and had my first ever UOA done at approx 76K. Sure enough I had a little potassium in the oil and I was advised by Blackstone to keep an eye on it. I've purchased the Fel-Pro PermaDry gasket, new bolts (complete with threadlocker already applied) and will begin the job as soon as the weather warms up a little. The dealer tried to sell me a tube of "Genuine GM" sealant to ensure that the bolts don't leak but after spending $45 for 8 bolts I passed on another $20 for a tube of teflon thread sealant that I can get at Home Depot for about $4. Do you think it is necessay to use this type sealant? I appreciate the lead to that website. Thanks

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Those intake bolts go into bottoming holes, so sealing the threads isn't an issue. They do have sealing washers under the bolt heads, though, and I've always smeared a little 515 anaerobic sealant on them and reused them... but most any sort of goop would work fine as I've never seen them leak. This info is a bit late since you've already purchased the $45 worth of bolts, but the only difference between the ones you bought and the ones you already have is the printed locktite. It works just as well to clean the old ones and put some red locktite on them. They have a habit of coming loose, and this has been addressed in three ways. All the improved design gaskets have metal tabs of some sort that prevent excessive gasket crush. There's the aforementioned locktite. Also, the torque spec has been increased- there will be a little sheet in your gasket set with the details.

You got the right gasket set IMO. The 'improved' GM ones are probably ok, but still failure-prone ('cause they're plastic). You'll need a few more odds and ends that didn't come in the gasket set, though. You'll want to change the oil pump drive o-ring while you're in there- it's a common leak. GM sells and improved o-ring. You'll need injector o-rings, as they don't come in the kit. What make/model/year is the vehicle? There are more nitpicky details depending on exactly what you're working on.

 

[onion]

I drained the transmission pan on the '01 Lumina and refilled with Dexron VI, swapped the inline filter. I can't tell any difference at all in how it drives... but I guess that's the point of being 'backwards compatible'.

I'll change the fluid in the other car sometime later when I get around to it. It's due for a pan drop and filter change in a few thousand miles anyway... too cold right now. I'm leaning toward Dexron VI in the Corsica, also... but still interested in any info on Dex VI, Mobil 1, or even Amsoil (as I've found out that I can buy it here in town).

 

[BobXRC]

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Sorry, yes Dexron VI, I don't know which of the Amsoil was tested but I am not the test engineer I am an application guy but sit right next to the lab and get to see all the testing. One of the guys has an inlaw who sells Amsoil and he brings some in all the time to see how well it works. Don't know much about it except the DexronVI was better because it survived some serious heat and the amsoil burned out along with the dexronIII. The Mobil1 came in #2 but was almost burned out. Our guys do their own tests where they put needle roller bearing assemblies or small planetary gear sets or chain drives on a dyno and overload it until it starts burning the lubricants and then deforms the metals. This testing is used mainly for non-clutch automotive applications as clutches would be long gone under this severe test. I can't give out any data or I would lose my job in a NY minute. But the DexronVI is way better than the Dexron III for sure.

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Interesting. I know GM claims twice the performance of DEXIII (I assume H). Looking at the Amsoil site the only test I found was THOT where it showed 900+ hours to 450 hours required of DEXIII.

I heard DEX VI called a blend which I took to mean Group II + Group III. I'd tend to believe that Mobil and Amsoil are at least Group III. I wouldn't be suprised if either Mobil or Amsoil had a lot of PAO. From a base oil point of view, the results are suprising. It makes me wonder whats in the add pack, or if they are somehow using a SUPER Group III.

Too bad they didn't test Honda Z1

 

[GMorg]

Related thread:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...ge=0#Post830667

 

[Volvohead]

I'm pretty sure that Dex VI requires SOME GIII to meet the spec. How much I don't know. But don't overlook the impact of the additive package. From everything I've read so far, that is a large part of the change, and of the performance improvement.

 

[Whitewolf]

From what I've seen Honda Z1 won't come anywhere close to meeting DEXRON-VI

 

[BobXRC]

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From what I've seen Honda Z1 won't come anywhere close to meeting DEXRON-VI

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Yup, a bad Honda 5 speed was able to cook it pretty good. If I had to do it over again, I would have used Amsoil or SF from day one.