The reliability hoax...

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From this link:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2095

"In J.D. Power’s 2006 Initial Quality Study (IQS), 30 of 37 makes fell within two-tenths of a manufacturing defect per car of the average. The difference between number three (Toyota) and number 32 (Hummer) was 0.27 problems per car. In J.D.’s most recent Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS), 23 of 37 makes fell within half a problem per car of the 2.27 average. Only four makes— three of them domestic— bettered the average by more than half a problem per car.

Real-world problems occur in wholes. A car cannot have 1.79 problems. So Toyota’s VDS score of 179 implies that the typical Toyota has two problems in its third year. And Ford’s score of 224 implies… much the same thing. Buy a Toyota over an alleged “Fix or Repair Daily” car, and you gain no guarantees, just a middling chance of avoiding a single additional problem in the third year."


This is something I've understood for a long, long time. Many folks still suffer from the delusion that Japanese cars are more reliable than American cars. Not so. These guys (figuratively pictured below)...

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...generally will tell you about a Pontiac or a Ford or a Dodge they had once that "did this," or "did that."

And you know, that Pontiac or Ford or Dodge probably did do those things.

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...and then when they got their Taiwanian-yooter it hasn't broken down one time. I don't doubt that either...

...but none of that changes the fact that there are tens of thousands of domestic cars on the road with 150K plus miles on the odometer which have given little to no trouble in all those miles, and there are likely as many Japanese cars which have given plenty of trouble. The differences are nearly impossible to discern in the last 15 to 20 years.

I have a friend with a fairly late model Lexus. He said it is the best car he's ever owned, and would buy another. When I asked him if he'd had any trouble with it, he said "only" a transmission. That cost him over 2000 bucks to fix, and it happened before the car had much more than 100,000 miles on it. But he's still a big Lexus fan, and encourages others to buy one. I do believe he is typical of the average Japanese car fan who has a Harley-Davidson-esque allegiance to the Toyota, Honda, Nissan, or whomever. In other words, they (like Harley) can do no wrong. (HD fans, don't think I'm bashing Harleys--I'm not, and I actually own one, I'm just properly categorizing folks here).
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Anyway, for those of you who haven't bought into the whole "Japanese cars are more reliable" myth, please understand that many folks and institutions will work overtime to confuse you. The membership here seems overwhelmingly in the import camp, so be careful of any perceived consensus in these pages as to which cars are better. Seek the truth, however, and you'll soon realize that the differences between domestic cars and Japanese cars (reliability-wise) are a non-issue.

By what you wish, of course. But when some schmoe tells you to get a Honda, Nissan, Toyota, or whatever--because it's "more reliable," be wise and know. He may not realize it, but he's full of it.
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Just settin' the record straight (for thinking individuals) and stirrin' the pot for the rest.
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Dan
 
Yup- coworker with 2000 Honda Odyssey minivan with plenty of transmission and electrical gremlins. He'll never buy another Honda. Another coworker with (I think) 1987 Oldsmobile Calais which has well over 150K on it hasn't given him any problems.
 
I assume most new cars are pretty reliable. To me, it's the LEVEL of service the car provides during it's life. That includes, safety, performance and comfort. Also, longevity is more closely related to reliability, how well the interior, paint and mechanicals hold up in the long run.

Bottom line is that who cares about some junk wagon if it drives and looks horrible, plus is unsafe....if it is "reliable". Cavalier comes to mind. I guess I tend to agree w/FTM, "reliability" is overrated.
 
I don't know about reliability but the quality of the finsished products, fit and finish and dealer support are why I like my Toyota's. Keeping a car running and keeping the drivers satisfied with the products are two differnt things.
 
Having worked in 3 separate (Domestic) dealerships and talking with different technicians who worked at both import dealerships and domestic, I have to agree 100% with Fuel Tanker Man. Most technicians that have worked with both imports and domestics believe that on average an import will cost more in upkeep.
 
Ask any 2005 or 06 Jeep Liberty CRD owner with torque converter and other tranny problems and they would disagree with you. Daimler Chrysler really screwed the pooch by mating a tranny that couldn't handle the torque produced by this diesel. Oh, they working on a fix by derating the torque and engine horsepower and reprogramming the tranny to shift at higher engine speeds and negate the diesel engine advantages. Jeep (DC) still hasn't figured out how to fix the tranny shudder at 55mph.
 
I don't put much merit in studies with so many problems or repairs per vehicle....I like real world experiences much better. I've owned many Chrysler, Ford's and G.M.'s. In 2003 I was frustrated with the quality level I was getting so I purchased my first foreign vehicle...a Nissan. I now have 150K on the vehicle and the bottom side of the engine is completely dry with no leaks and the engine doesn't burn oil (which could not be said with any of the American products). The engine sounds like I did when I brought it home. Because of that experience, I recently purchased a Nissan SUV which I've been equally satisfied with. There's a heck of a difference between a vehicle's initial quality with 30K miles on the odometer (I'd imagine it's similar for foreign and domestic cars) and the value of the car at 200K miles. In general (I'm sure there are always exceptions) Japanese cars are not "nickled and dimed" as much as the domestic car makers and there's more of the car left once the vehicle reaches 200K miles.
 
They all have their problem areas. IMO, the worst with certain cut-rate parts has got to be GM: Window regulators, interior parts, alternators, power steering pumps... nickle/dime stupid stuff that should never be an issue within the first ~5yrs of ownership. Ford has gotten WAY better in those areas. As far as sales/service, you never know what you are going to get in regards to that. Dealerships are privately run businesses. I realize it does, but dealership experiences shouldn't reflect on the auto manufacturer. Manufacturers make cars, they dont sell/service them. I wish they were accountable for that, but for the most part they are not.

Joel
 
There was a claim made by a reputable member here who worked service counter at a combo dealer. He said Honda ECUs come back bad a few a year, but he fills a coupla pallets with bad GM ECUs that will be shipped back to mfg. Nothing in my experience would contradict that. I think the GM intake gasket issue hovers like a dark cloud over discussions like this.
 
I solve the problem by having both. Geo Metro = Chevy body + Suzuki engine.
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And I would say the body is in better shape than the engine. Haven't had the bumper fall off or the tranny wear out, but the EGR is plugged and it drinks a quart of oil every 2 weeks. But hey, it's a Geo.
 
To me you have to go beyond foreign and domestic. There is Toyota and Honda and maybe Subaru in one group. And you can lump the rest all together.
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Cost of ownership? Thats what extended warranties are for. Statistically any car can have problems.
 
Take a used auto parts salesperson to lunch.

Get a "real world" analysis of reliability by those who sell parts to the repair shops.

Omit the parts used for crash repairs since those do not apply to vehicle and vehicle component longevity.

Going by memory;

I believe it was the 1986 Toyota V6 engine that we couldn't keep in stock. As soon as a wrecked unit with a decent engine arrived it was sold for top dollar. Toyota made the quick fix so it was that one model year that spun the main bearings so quickly.

Then there was that Camry model. Sold the auto trannys like THAT!!!!!! At least Toyota made the modifications in later trannys to prevent the constant breakdowns.

Other models have their problem areas. Even as minor as the electric window switch burning out constantly due to poor design.

Talk to the used parts dude. He will let you know the bad components though it takes awhile after new models with new components are introduced before the trends reveal themselves.

With today's modern wrecking yards using complex computer software's trends are also shown on computer generated reports.

Every time a parts request is entered into the computer it is logged and entered into the database that is based upon part interchange numbers. Those reports also show the trends of reliability.

Additionally, some yards are tied into WANs (wide area networks) where multiple yards can search the inventory of other yards. Many sales made that way. The requests from other yards can be logged separately and show another source of component reliability.

I am struggling to remember the particular component but it eludes me. I recall our (and other yards in warmer climates) selling a LOT of a particular vehicle's component to more northerly states where the frigid winters place a certain type of stress. Ahhhh!!!! I believe it may have been a Subaru auto tranny. Anyway, for some reason, those parts in vehicles in warmer winter states didn't break nearly as much as those in colder clime states.

I do not know if any or all of the manufacturers look into the data from wrecking yards. The info could be invaluable in the creation of more reliable vehicles.

Yes, I know that new cars have warranties but we often sold to dealerships used parts for newer vehicles still under warranty. It is surprising how often the manufacturer's supply chain could not meet warranty work demand and dealers/vehicle owners relied upon our used but nearly-new parts from new vehicles that had been totaled by the indurance companies.

It was always kinda' sad to see a new vehicle with only a few hundred miles on it being torn asunder inside our yard. Interestingly, when we knew the sordid tale; it was often a younger driver or a female that had been driving when the car was wrecked. If they were not the cause of the wreck the youth or female did not possess the driving capability to escape the mistakes of others.

Anyway........... if you want to research a used car for potential purchase or just want to hear some interesting stories, shoot the breeze with a competent used parts salesperson working at one of the modern computerized yards.
 
I bet if honda or toyota designed a new car but you slapped a chevy bowtie on the front of it and let people test it without knowing it wasn't a chevy product it would be called unrefined and cheaply made. Put the honda badge back on it and it would get great reviews. My friend tried to tell me that after test driving a vibe and then a matrix he thought the matrix was much better with a smoother engine and better fit and finish. He was shocked to learn that they are basically the same.
 
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Put the honda badge back on it and it would get great reviews.


Maybe some people would. But if you spent serious time behind the wheels of Hondas, Toyotas and Corsicas and Cavaliers, you'll know.
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When I had to move my Aunt's Beretta once, it felt like a spring was wound around the steering colum for power steering.
 
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Put the honda badge back on it and it would get great reviews.


Maybe some people would. But if you spent serious time behind the wheels of Hondas, Toyotas and Corsicas and Cavaliers, you'll know.
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Did you just compare two global car mfr's to two specific car models?

Care to explain the equality and logic of your comment?
 
Exactly, this is comparable to expecting Bubba the redneck whose taste for drink is tuned for Milwaukee's Best to appreciate a vineyards and wine tasting tour. It takes a graduation and time to tell the differences and Bubbas used to the lower end product. It gets him a buzz isn't that all that counts?
Just like an American nameplate will provide transportation, but it is not all that counts when a persons automotive taste has been refined.
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1.79 vs 2.24 does basically equal 2 problems by the third year for either car. But that doesn't tell you much.

Was an O2 sensor replaced under warranty or the tranny? Big difference. It would be nice if the rating was weighted for severity of the problem. Bad experience with the dealer can also turn a person off when a problem can be easily handled.

Also refering to Toyota vs GM as Japanese vs American is a bit outdated. Those Toyotas and Hondas are now built in the US with as much or more domestic content than the GM, Ford, or Chrysler.
 
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