PD VW TDI oil issue questions

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I own an 06 VW Jetta TDI with the Pump Duse (PD, camshaft/roller driven injectors) direct injection disel. As many here know, the oil VW requires is 505.01.

In any case, I am not impressed with the protection this oil provides my engine. I can see 2 cam lobes and 1 PD roller through the filler. I see visible wear at 16K miles. No, it is not significant enough to warrant a dealership visit, but I think the oil is at it's limit protecting these parts.

So, I started thinking about the huge argument over at the TDI forums and the use of Delvac 1. I also thought about the users of these engines who are having 90K camshaft failures, some even were dealer serviced. This post is not here to fault dealerships, just discuss oil.

I think the viscosity is too low to protect the parts properly. Here in South Florida, we often can get better UOA by stepping up a grade in viscosity. I am certain the PD engine is no different. All the additives in the world cannot prevent wear if viscosity is too light to handle the load. (BTW, I got this idea from my turbo miata which gets good UOA only with thick oils).

What do you guys think? Maybe the 5W-40 is too thin to protect the cam and very high pressure PD roller? I am considering switching to a slightly thicker diesel oil.

Chris
 
I have an 04 Jetta TDI with the same engine. I have not visually inspected my camshaft, and even if I did, it would be like a hog looking at a wristwatch.

That aside, have you done a UOA? Seems like your wear metals would be high if the oil weren't lubricating adequately.

My last UOA of Castrol TXT 5W-40 (505.01) showed the oil had sheared down from 14.4 cSt@100*C to 12.9 over 10K miles. So apparently the vicosity declines with use. I was not alarmed, but if that kind of thing bothers you, perhaps you should experiment with other 505.01 oils. Because of your warranty, I wouldn't recommend using an oil which doesn't meet those specs.

You might consider Valvoline Synpower 20W-50. It is CF rated for diesels, and while not considered a HDEO, looks very robust with a 19.5 cSt viscosity at 100*C. Valvoline says on the bottle it meets VW 505.01 specs. I think your fuel mileage would suffer, and that's the point of having a TDI in the first place, but it would be an interesting experiment.

Let us know what you decide and, in due course, the results.

Cheers, Mark
 
I use Motul in my 2005 Jetta wagon DP TDI. I also change my oil every 5,000 miles since I am not convinced at all of the alleged higher wear with new oil (I think its just better cleaning) and going 10K really bothers me. My understanding is the Castrol is a blend of Group II and III while the Motul and Elf are closer to all Group III. If you really want protection go with the true synthetic PD oils, I believe they are mostly PEOs (Group V).

If I have a camshaft failure at 90K VW is going to hear about it loud and clear, especially if there are a lot of such failures.

Don
 
Quote:


You might consider Valvoline Synpower 20W-50. It is CF rated for diesels, and while not considered a HDEO, looks very robust with a 19.5 cSt viscosity at 100*C. Valvoline says on the bottle it meets VW 505.01 spec



No way do I believe that.

Nor do I believe the OP needs a more-viscous oil. There may be better 5w40 oils than the Castrol TXT, but I see no reason to switch to a 15w40 or 20w50.
 
Thanks for the responses! While there may be better or best quality 505.01 oils, my question is geared towards viscosity. Reason being that higher viscosity tends to be used in certain applications with high film strength requirements. Some aviation applications come to mind.

Also, past camshaft problems (in american cars) were quite often solved by the use of higher viscosity oil. Many years ago, GM had a rash of cam failures. Some occured very early on in the engines life. I know for a fact that the owners using 20-50 had no such problems.

I know that the PD engine is a far cry from a GM pushrod engine made in the 70's. But, I wonder if some of the same logic (however faulty) could be used here.

Some believe that additive package is the way to get an oil to perform. Some believe that higher viscosity and/or higher quality are necessary. I am in the latter. I think the oil should provide proper protection even when the additive package is used up.

The PD engine has proven that conventional oils cannot protect. Is this because they are so thin?

Chris
 
I have two VW cars with the PD engine. I use Schaeffers 9000 oil in both. I think the 505.01 spec has more to do with limiting the additive package to protect the emission system than it does cam wear. VW then tests the oil to see if it still works well enough to get the car past warranty without cam failures. The 9000 oil has a higher HTHS value than the 505.01 oils (as high as some 20W50 oils) and I think that it is the most important spec in regards to cam life.
 
I'd recommend staying with a 505.01 oil through the warranty period. I used Motul, Elf, and Pentosin 505.01 in my '04 PD. After 50k, I switched over to Delvac 1. Here is my latest UOA:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...ge=1#Post583359

I'll let you be the judge.
smile.gif


Keep in mind that these commonly-available 505.01 oils (and Castrol TXT) are all 5W/40 weights.
 
I read that Delvac 1 and the Truck/suv/turbo diesel truck whatever it is called oil will be/is being reformulated with less additives.

Is this true?

Also, I got a very nice email from someone who agrees with my thoughts on this subject. Higher viscosity may in fact be worth a try. Or delvac 1.

Chris
 
My 05 TDI Wagon is still under warranty, has just under 30K, so I am coming up on an oil change. What is the better of the oils to use out of the 505.01's out there? I have used Elf, and Motul thus far. I will stay with the 505.01's through the warranty period, but beyond that... who knows
wink.gif

I see that Valvoline now offers a 5w30 in 505.01 spec. I was thinking of using that. I use Mobil 1 in my Volvo (VW/Audi engine) diesels, and have for years. When disassembled, they show zero signs of any wear, both in the rings and cylinder walls, where with 15w40, the wear was severe. I am not sure how the PD motors would do with 5w30. Just throwing ideas around before I hit 30K. Thanks!
 
Quote:


I see that Valvoline now offers a 5w30 in 505.01 spec. I was thinking of using that.



I can't prove a thing... but I am very skeptical of the Valvoline claims. In addition, I once worked for Ashland Oil, I continue to be a shareholder in Ashland Oil, and I have not used any of their products in my cars these last 25 years. I don't plan to start anytime soon.
 
I'll have to agree. I feel the same way about several of those companies, one particular comes to mind
wink.gif


What would happen if someone used the valvoline 505.01 and something happened to the engine? Who would be responsible? I would think it'd be a huge mess to sort out.

On another note, Amsoil has a 505.01 oil now. Any opinions on that in a PD? Thanks!
 
With all I think I know about the PD oil issues and related failures with jiffy lube type oil use, I cannot understand why someone would use a 5-30 of any sort in this engine.

My thought was to go thicker.

Chris
 
If you want to run a good off-the shelf 505.01 rated oil in the PD, run Valvoline Maxlife synthetic 5W-30. All the new formulations are 505.01 certified, are light in weight, and my dad is getting 49-52mpg with his 06 TDI Jetta with it. The Castrol only got him 47mpg.
 
Well, for now, I will avoid going with a thinner oil. It was 89 degrees out here today. December 3! Maybe Delvac 1 after the warranty is out.

Chris
 
Dominic,

I'll be interested to know whether your dad has a UOA done on the Maxlife and what it looks like. I too have bought some Valvoline Maxlife Synthetic in 5W-30, but I won't use it till I'm out of warranty, despite the 505.01 label. I'm getting about 47 mpg now in the 04 TDI with dealer-purchased Castrol TXT, but wouldn't mind breaking 50.

Cheers, Mark
 
A quality 5W40 has all of the HTHS that any production vechile needs. Now some 5W40's do a better job then others though. 5W40 HDEO is designed to protect commercial diesel engines and I know that your TDI does not have higher valvetrain load then a comercial diesel!! I would select a 5W40 with at least 1200PPM of Zink and 3000PPM of Calcium and an HTHS of not less then 4 and see what you see. If you can get moly,boron,antimony in the oil as well more power to ya!If Delvac and RTS 5W40 have not done well for you I would try Redline 5W40!Redline 5W40 is either 4.7 or 4.9 HTHS and has plenty of zink,calcium and moly! If Redline 5W40 does not get it done for you I doubt anything other then a nitrided cam will. Thatmight make sense to polish the cam and get it nitride coated!
 
Re "I know that your TDI does not have higher valvetrain load then a comercial diesel!!" why do you think that? The TDI has a very heavy load on the injectors, and runs at a higher rpm. HDEO is not tested against VW engine requirements - so any facts to go with your view?
 
Since the thread title addresses PD (Pumpe Duse) TDI engines, let me point out that there are no 15w40 motor oils approved, recommended, or suggested for use in these engines.

If someone has a PD TDI engine, I suggest using a 505.01-rated oil at least until the end of the drivetrain warranty. There is no reason to spend the extra money on a long-drain oil, since the warranty requires a 10k-mile OCI.

After the warranty is over, if anyone wants to experiment with other full-synthetic 5w40 motor oils meeting the API CI-4 or CI-4 Plus spec, they may do so at their own risk. There is a least one guy here at BITOG using Delvac 1 5w40 in a PD TDI engine DURING the warranty period -- but he is fully aware of the risk to his warranty, and is performing regular used-oil analysis. (I think he ought to do a particle count, but that is off the topic.)
 
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