What is the best viscosity for lawn equipment?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Quote:



I looked at the VOA section and agree that 30 weights are typically 11-12cSt and 15W-40 are 15 - 15.5 (both at 100C). Assuming that air-cooled engines that are run hard and/or in summer heat run about 10-20C more (I think someone had hard numbers here) so a XW-40 might be closer to 12-13cSt at temp ... not much more than a 30W at 100C. (Just an educated guess)





As interesting as many BITOG discussions are, this is an example of what can rub me the wrong way. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and here are some things on my mind.

First, in the PCMO and other similar forums when a poster asks what oil they should use the first responses are "what does the manual say?". Here on the small engine forum, few seem to care what the manual says.

All of my OPE manuals state 10W30 for all temps, 30W above 10C (or something like that). They don't list any optional 40W or 50W ranges for ANY temperatures. A *lot* of people seem to be in the same boat with their brand of engine (mine are Honda).

Second, don't you guys think the folks who built the engine know the typical operating temperatures? Don't you think they know what viscosity SAE30 is expected to be at those temperatures? Why are you convinced that we're onto something that professionals in the field haven't figured out yet? I've seen dozens of threads where folks use the logic above "if a 30W is x cSt at 100C we have to use a 40W which will be the same cSt at the higher temperature". Why? Maybe the engine is designed for (x-2) cSt at full temperature.

I'd consider the higher-than-water-cooled temperature a possible justification to use synthetics or synthetic blend so they don't cook and leave deposits but not as a universal need to switch grades. If the engineers thought that the high heat really needed a 40W, wouldn't they put 10W40 or 15W40 in the manual? ...even if only as an option for high ambient temps? It's not like it's hard oil to find and they had to dumb it down like some consumer grade compressor manufacturers specing 5/10W30 PCMO in a "pinch" instead of ISO100 (example).

Third, the engineers who design these engines must know their temperatures and where the hot spots are to specify proper machining tolerances and metallurgy. We've discussed before how single piston OPE engines have cylinders/pistons that go elliptical when cool and have sloppy tolerances until warmed up. Doesn't that mean that as they really get hot they continue to get tighter? If I understand correctly, as gaps decrease, thicker oils may no longer be suitable protection. Is this the time you want heavier oil than the manufacturer recommends in there instead of something you know will maintain a film on the cylinder wall instead of getting wiped clean away? The leading edge element in the PCMO forum is "going thin" and debunking that "thick is always better" over and over again but some here are hung up on putting dino 15W40 in their snowblowers. When the clearances are large at cool starting temps, a single-grade 30W will also be quite thick to allow rings to seal etc... That seems to work pretty well with the needs of the design. Perhaps it's in the design that 30W oils get appropriately thin when in high heat conditions to splash easier and stay where they are supposed to be.

High TBN in itself is an admirable goal. I know that most people (myself included) won't pay for a UOA for their lawnmower to see if ultra-high TBNs are truly required at proper OCIs. There is already a good selection of high TBN oils without going to 15W40 diesel oil. (Amsoil ASE, M1 MX4T I think, various dino 30 weights)

OK, I feel better now
laugh.gif


In the end, one thing I've seen mentioned here is that the engine always seems to outlast the rest of the equipment it's attached to, and there's probably nothing you can do to kill it. I, like many, like to do the best I can for my gear especially when it's a major investment so I/we obsess over the right fluids. Carry on!
smile.gif
 
Last edited:
Obsession thats what it is... and no one has "proven" that thinner is always better either. I sincerely believe that a lot depends on the application and operating conditions.

Is it better to err on the side of "thin" or on the side of "thick' in the typical warm weather and abuse that O.P.E is subjected to?

Or to put it more succinctly:

I personaly believe that 50Wt. ND will vastly outperform in crankcase duty; fully additized kerosene in an I.C.E. Especially in an air cooled heavily loaded engine in hot weather... all day long.

Paging Dr. Haas!

There has been an outbreak of "thickheadedness"

0w0 vaccine needed immediately!

And yes I still believe that 15w40 is a good choice for lots of engines, not just O.P.E.

Isn't it interesting that "thick" oil is used to compensate for wear after a thin oil has been used and a "thin' oil is never used to compensate for wear after a "thick" oil oil has been used?

It's still a free choice for everyone.

Rickey.
 
Craig, you make a lot of good points ... but many have been brought up and answered here a few years ago.

I saved your text and wanted to write a copmplete (read: exhaustive) response. I just don't have the time right now. Don't know when I will.
frown.gif


In the meantime, I'll try to make a few points and be brief:

The manuals for some of my OPE are quite old and (depending on year and brand) would give you a full range of oil choices from 20 weights up to straight weights thicker than 30 (depending on temperature). However, B&S had a decade or more where they simply recommended 30 weight for most applications (which they now realize can actually cause damage) and/or they would allow synthetic XW-30s ... merely assuming these to be shear stable and not prone to heavy consumption ... an assumption they shouldn't make. Is this dumbed down? Yes, I'd say that. And, assuming XW-30s to be shear stable is also kinda foolish, especially for long run intervals in the summer heat.

In short, very little thought seemed to be put into oil selection, probably figuring that anything that wouldn't burn off completely would be good enough to give the user a few hundred hours of service.

Yes, that's conjecture on my part, but I still stand by it today. These folks build engines and don't seem to be consumed with oil selection. They update their manuals every decade or so ... while many oils are reformulated every year or so. Forgive me if I don't treat these "dumbed-down" recommendations in these manuals as scripture.

When I drain the 15W-40 oil out of my OPE in the fall or spring (after a year's use) I find little or no visible glitter in the oil as I do with brand new equipment that sheds metal like crazy. I gotta be doing sumthin' right.
smile.gif


If I was able to get a shear stable dino 10W-30 HDEO, I'd choose that over 15W-40 for a number OPE applications (snowblower and newer engines) but for now I (and plenty others here) will continue to use 15W-40 with great results.

(I don't usually bother with synthetics as I like to drain the non-filtered oil out frequently.)

So much for brief.
blush.gif
 
Bror Jace: i dont spend much time in this lawn mower section , but i have to say you give the best advice on taking care of small gas engines than any one else on this site. Anyone interested in taking excellent care of your lawn equipment just pay attention to BROR JACE ...you will get no better advice anywhere.
 
I have to concur on your thoughts about Bror. I don't know if what he says is correct, but he sure speaks with authority. In fact, he appears to out of place at BITOG - unlike many of us (baaa...sheep herd mentality), he seems to be an independent thinker (meant to be a compliment).

I hate to admit this, but over at lawnsite.com I recently read of a Michigan professional lawn care operator that has used 15W40 many years and has several instances of commercial mowers with over 3 THOUSAND hours on the engines and they still run strong. Go figure.
 
Bror Jace has provided a wealth of information on this site. Just reading his posts would answer many of the questions posted in this area of BITOG!
 
Thanks for the kind words, guys ... really.
tounge2.gif


I take really good care of my OPE ... mowers, generators, a log splitter, tot-tiller, sickle mower, pressure washer, etc ... I feed them clean oil, clean fuel and clean air and they have not let me down in the last two decades. I grease them, clean the air filter and change the oil more frequently than necessary ... but it costs very little
twocents.gif
and I enjoy time spent on these simple tasks ... as well as that good feeling knowing the machine is more likely to start and perform well ... even if I have to occasionally push it hard.

I'm not terrific with all aspects of these machines, however. My brother is the real mechanic in the family. He can do a great job tuning a carb ... while I am simply lost with the task. Between the two of is, we can take a hunk of junk and get it running great ... and keep it that way.

doitmyself: "In fact, [Bror] appears to out of place at BITOG - unlike many of us (baaa...sheep herd mentality), he seems to be an independent thinker (meant to be a compliment)."

Thanks doit, and yes, I DO take that as a compliment, about the best one I've heard in a while.
grin.gif


Knowing my limitations (I'm a DIYer, not an engineer or a real mechanic) I tell people what I think and WHY I think it. I lay out my reasoning and everyone reading is free to agree with it and adopt it for themselves, or toss it aside in favor of some other idea.

In another contemporary thread about mowers, Ed Hackett gave Mystic almost the exact same advice I would have if I had posted first. That type of reinforcement feels pretty good and helps me feel I'm on the right track.
smile.gif
(For those that don't know, Ed Hackett was a BITOGian before BITOG even existed.)
wink.gif
 
Getting back to the Kawi topic, I have a Exmark walk behind with a 15 hp Kawasaki V-twin and I've run M1 SL and now M1 SM the last two seasons and haven't had to add a drop. My next oil for that will be the higher concentration of anti-wear additives M1 M4t 10w40 motorcycle oil.
 
I still can't believe that even though Briggs and Statton states flatly that using straight 30 weight oils in colder temperatures may cause cylinder scoring, that some people will continue to think an even thicker oil will be somehow better.
confused.gif


And just to throw a wrench into the theory that new SM rated oils are down on antiwear components and hence bad for all sorts of equipment, here's a quote from the Shell site -

Based on extensive industry recognized engine wear tests done by Shell Lubricants, Shell ROTELLA®T with Triple Protection™ technology provides on average 50 percent greater wear protection (ranging from 27% to 88% reduced wear) than the previous formulation.

I believe they're comparing Rotella SM/CJ-4 oils to their previous SL/CI-4 product.

The antiwear components aren't missing "missing" in SM oils. They've been replaced with ashless chemistry that mostly doesn't show up as obvious in our simple UOA's. And we've heard the same things over and over from Terry Dyson, that all things being equal the newer oils really are better.

Yet people still want to run older rated oils because they read something like SH required in the manual and ignored the or better part... Double
confused.gif


Me, I'm going to stick with the lastest rating of shear stable synthetic 10W-30 I can find. Once I run out of my stash of M1R that is...
 
I had a recent viscosity concerns with a fill of PP 10w30 in a new pressure washer with a Honda engine (cheap version). I checked the oil after approx. 2 hours running pretty hard. The oil was very thin, super HOT and smell like gas. I drain and changed oil with Rotella T 10w-30 CJ4. Ran another 2 hours hard. Check oil and what difference. Oil was noticeably thicker, didn’t seem as Hot and still had a smell of gas. I have run it several times now and all seems well. Maybe I just had lot of fuel dilution on the first run. It seems to me the Rotella T 10w-30 CJ4 may be the ticket for air cooled engines running hard and Hot in South Louisiana. I was told by Shell the minimum HTHS viscosity is 3.5. I still like the PP just the Rotella 10w-30 SEEMS to be better for this application. I was considering Rotella 15w40 but was concern it may be to thick. Any tips or suggestions welcome.
 
I think you could do far worse than using the Rotella 10W-30.

The Rotella 10W-30 is a thicker oil than the PP to start out. 12.1 cSt vs. 10.5cSt. And given that the Rotella isn't a GF-4 starbust fuel economy oil my guess is that it isn't as likely to shear down in use.

I'm using the SL/CI-4 rated Rotella 10W-30 in my 23hp Kohler as break in oil before I switch it to synthetic. I'd have used the SM/CJ-4 stuff if I could find it locally.

I've already voiced my beliefs a few times about running heavy 40 and 50 weight oils in these engines. I won't do it...
 
Jsharp,

Your opinion about SM oils seems to say that SM is better than the earlier categories IF you are using a synthetic or a diesel rated oil. A lot of the controversy on this thread is whether a energy conserving auto SM oil is up to the job of protecting OPE engines.

You quote "from Terry Dyson, that all things being equal the newer oils really are better." Well, in this case all things are not equal. We're comparing sophisticated computer controlled water cooled engines to simple air cooled engines. I wonder if Terry's advice covers this? All we can do is wonder because it seems that there are anecdotal stories that support excellent results with almost any type and weight of oil within reason. None the less, this has been an enjoyable debate.
 
What I meant with the all things equal comment was comparing particular oils to themselves. Same brand and weight SM to SL etc. It may not be true in every case, but overall I think the newer oils are better.

I don't see the small OPE engines as much different either as far as what the oil has to do. The operating conditions are just more variable.

And you're right about opinions being all over the place on this with evidence to point to multiple conclusions.

Strong agreement on one part - Good discussion in this thread
cheers.gif


Bebop, I have a stash of Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30 that I got cheap and that's what I intend to run in my Kohler. Unless something else comes along that I think might work better.
 
A good tribological rule of thumb is to run the vis recommended but use a very high quality formula to get there. Since the quantities of the lubes needed is small don't cheap out on the product. If the application calls for 10w30 use Redline,NEO,Amsoil,RLI,SF ( if and when Mola restarts).

The heat dissipation from GRP III or higher base oils and a robust add pack will make a noticeable performance and life difference for you.

If you genuinely can't afford those formulas then use the best oil you can procure and add Auto-RX or LC to it to get near optimum performance for lower cost. Problem is if you are unwilling to get oil analysis data on the unit and your additizing you will not know what is working and what is a waste.

Stay away from automotive oils unless VERY high quality because they are designed to allow shear for MPG gains. You do not need that in a working engine for a mower etc. The quality of lubes I recommend above are good enough to do BOTH because they use very high quality formulations.

CJ4 diesel oils are a good trade off but getting the vis properly tied in can be an issue depending on the application. The older concern of bore polishing a gas engine or deposits formation from overbased HDD oils is compensated for to some degree by using CJ4 HDD oils.

Hope that helps doitmyself.

Terry
 
Quote:




Stay away from automotive oils unless VERY high quality because they are designed to allow shear for MPG gains. You do not need that in a working engine for a mower etc.
Terry




Terry, How much shearing are we talking about?
 
I'm "experimenting" with a dino 10W40 motorcycle oil in my almost new Kohler for this OCI.

In the interest of science I propose to use an infrared thermometer to get some temp readings on the block, oil filter, and cylinder head.

Next OCI different oil and take readings again.

I will try to maintain the conditions before the readings as similar as possible.
I realize that this does not constitute "real" science,
(lack of repeatability of conditions) but it will be interesting at least for me.

Rickey.
 
Quote:


A good tribological rule of thumb is to run the vis recommended but use a very high quality formula to get there. Since the quantities of the lubes needed is small don't cheap out on the product.




It is not about cost. It is about what is an overkill. Caterpiller has fine machines that can do all sorts of things but you don't use it for gardening. Mobil, RP, Amsoil and others have fantastic synthetic oils but you don't use it for a $200 push mower.

If your OCI is 50 or 100 hours then using a quality oil that could handle 200 and 300 hours is a waste, unless you plan on long OCIs.

Quote:


If the application calls for 10w30 use Redline,NEO,Amsoil,RLI,SF ( if and when Mola restarts).

The heat dissipation from GRP III or higher base oils and a robust add pack will make a noticeable performance and life difference for you.

If you genuinely can't afford those formulas then use the best oil you can procure and add Auto-RX or LC to it to get near optimum performance for lower cost. Problem is if you are unwilling to get oil analysis data on the unit and your additizing you will not know what is working and what is a waste.

Stay away from automotive oils unless VERY high quality because they are designed to allow shear for MPG gains. You do not need that in a working engine for a mower etc. The quality of lubes I recommend above are good enough to do BOTH because they use very high quality formulations.

CJ4 diesel oils are a good trade off but getting the vis properly tied in can be an issue depending on the application. The older concern of bore polishing a gas engine or deposits formation from overbased HDD oils is compensated for to some degree by using CJ4 HDD oils.

Hope that helps doitmyself.

Terry




You should have qualified your description above with the assumption that the machine works hard; intensive use. Substantial shearing occurs only for machines that work for long periods of time in hot climates.

For instance, during spring and autumn up here in Canada we have lower temps and I only do light work such as hauling some lumber and light mowing. So any automotive 5W30 and 10W30 (which is recommended in manual) is perfectly fine. I run it for 10-15 min at a time at a medium throttle. Clearly high end oils are overkill for this application.

Now in the summer I switch to truck rated 10W40 oils (Castrol GTX) and still limit my runs to about an hour. Higher load, but limited runs, so no big deal. This would be an average home owner.

Now if you have a business that runs engines 3-4 hours straight in July/August heat then sure you need to move to higher quality oils.

I'll try a simplistic comparison to see how muc shearing takes place and how much of a problem it is.

I have a 16hp Kohler, OCI 50 hours.
My Kawasaki 600cc bike uses 10W40 or 15W40 truck oil (forget the exact designations on the label, I can look it up later).
Anyway the bike uses the same oil for engine and clutch!!! Also, it runs at about 2x RPM or my lawn tractor (if not more). So I could safely state that it beats the heck out of oil, much more than my tractor. If you want to talk about oil shearing then you talk about bikes with a wet clutch!

I have about 3K km OCI at which point I can actually feel the difference when changing gears and I know for a fact that there has been significant shearing (as opposed to guessing). My commute to work is 50 km, about 45 min, so:

3000 km / 50 km * 0.75 hr = 45 hours OCI

Oil is Castrol GTX (or was it RX for trucks) something like that, 10W40 and 15W40

So it seems to be able to handle bike's torture for 45 hours, then I think I am safe using it in the tractor engine for 50 hours.

My point being that shearing cannot possibly be significant and pose any problems for standard limited OCIs under a non-heavy load in mild to occasionally hot climates.

Basic 10W40 and 15W40 dino will work just fine. No need for "Redline,NEO,Amsoil,RLI,SF"
If you really have to stay at 10W30 or 5W30 and may occasaionally operate under heavy loads and/or on very hot days then perhaps these oils may make sense. I just find it easier to move up to xW40
My manuals does offer a range of viscosities for different temps.
 
The "good lubes are overkill" argument makes a lot more sense on a $200 Walmart push mower than it does on a garden tractor like many of us have that cost many thousands of dollars.

If I can extend the life of a multi-thousand dollar machine even a small amount by using marginally more expensive lubricants, why wouldn't I? It's not overkill, it's good economic sense. Penny wise and pound foolish. Or not...

I also can't agree that simply moving up a grade in weight will offset a poor quality lubricant choice. If it did I think we'd see a lot of SA rated 40 and 50 weights being manufacturer recommended for use in OPE.
 
Well that is what I don't understand. Where is the proof that a better oil will extend machine's lifespan???? To the contrary many people with more experience have stated that they got 20+ years of service using cheap/basic oils. How do you know that motor might not last even 40 years using basic oil products?

When I observe all the vibrations and stresses on my machine it is perfectly clear to me that the body and other parts will break down well before the motor. So in 20 years I'll have an old fragile body and a motor that can keep going another 20 years. What is the point? Am I going to reuse that motor for something else?

It the same argument that is being endlessly discussed for cars. Motor may keep going for 300K or 400K miles but the body will rust well before then. This the reason why most people DO NOT use high end synthetic oil on average.

Again for specific situations they may apply. I use synthetic oil in my cars during winter for lower startup wear. Similarly I use synthetic for snow blower. But for tractor during summer for my light use it is just not necessary.

Regarding the POTENTIAL poor quality (which is a poor choice of words as most dinos today such as Castrol's are decent quality) it doesn't really matter for such a short OCI such as 50 hours. By the time it starts to degrade, additives are depleted, or shears down, etc. you are already changing it. In fact, you are dumping a high end oil which is nowhere near depleted. It is a waste.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top