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#728420 - 10/24/05 05:02 AM VW 504/507
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
All of those Low (really medium) SAPS oils are approved by VW and all of them are 5W-30:

Agip 7008
Agip Autol Carrera Longlife III
Aral SuperTronic LongLife III
BP Visco 7000 Longlife III
Bucher AG Motorex Profile V-XL
Castrol Castrol SLX LongLife III
Elf Solaris LLX
Galp Formula Longlife III
Mobil 1 ESP Formula
MOL Dynamic Gold Longlife
Pentosin Pento Super Performance III
Repsol Elite Longlife 50700/50400
Shell Ultra VX
SRS Schmierstoff Vertrieb Wintershall ViVA1 SLV plus
Statoil LazerWay LL
VAPS Vapsoil 507 00
Zeller+Gmelin Divinol Syntholight 03


Some of those oils may crop up in the NA market.

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#728421 - 10/24/05 08:55 AM Re: VW 504/507
Drew Offline


Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 332
Loc: Colorado
I'm using Elf 507 low SAP oil in my 2004 TDI right now and it has improved highway fuel economy by about 1.5 mpg over the 505.01 oil.

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#728422 - 10/24/05 09:00 AM Re: VW 504/507
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
Drew, the P/D engine still requires VW 505.01, the other VW diesel engines can use VW 507. I'm not surprised you get better mileage with VW 507. It appears that all VW 504/507 spec oils are 5W-30 and that they have HTHS 3.5. The VW 505.01 oil is probably thicker at operating temps.

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#728423 - 10/24/05 09:26 AM Re: VW 504/507
Drew Offline


Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 332
Loc: Colorado
The 507 spec supercedes the 505.01 spec and is approved in Germany for use in the PD engine.

VWOA is of course ignorant of the new oil since it isn't sold thru their dealer network.

The 507 oil is supposed to meet all specs for all VW engines and do away with all of the various blends that tend to confuse the VW techs more than customers.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=944960&an=0&page=0#944960

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#728424 - 10/24/05 10:16 AM Re: VW 504/507
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
Nope, 3, 4, and 5 cylinder engines without DPF (diesel particle filter) and without LongLife Service still require VW 501.01. This is the VW bulletin that I posted months ago:

http://photobucket.com/albums/y108/moribundman/?action=view¤t=vw_oil.jpg

Your own source states "...applicable according to manufacturer in all vehicles of the company marks with Longlife service."

If your PD engine is equipped for Long Life Service, then you are correct and you may use VW 507. As far as I know, LL Service is not available in US import models, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

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#728425 - 10/24/05 10:38 AM Re: VW 504/507
Ferrari Offline


Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 208
Loc: Mississauga, ON
Drew is correct, the 507 spec supercedes the 505.01 spec and can be used in PD-TDI engines. Since our PD-TDIs don't have the oil life monitor, it's good not to push the intervals too far past 10K.

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#728426 - 10/24/05 02:14 PM Re: VW 504/507
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
Did you see the official VW oil spec bulletin that I linked? Even though it's written in German, I tink you can figure out what it says. [Wink]

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#728427 - 10/24/05 03:50 PM Re: VW 504/507
FowVay Offline


Registered: 06/02/02
Posts: 2167
Loc: Southeastern USA
Mori's data does specifically state that if you are using a 3 or 4 cylinder PD diesel that does not have the particle filter exhaust then the correct oil to use is the 505.01. So in the situation of the North American PD diesels there is still no substitute for the 505.01 specification.

Mit = with
ohne = without
nur = only
oder = or

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#728428 - 10/24/05 04:22 PM Re: VW 504/507
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46595
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
IMHO - VWOA cannot continue to mess with the American consummer so poorly and expect top performance and warranty "enforcement".

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#728429 - 10/24/05 08:27 PM Re: VW 504/507
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
I don't see VWoA messing with anybody here. I don't know what they have or haven't published or what they tell or don't tell the consumer regarding their new oil specs. I only know the original VW bulletin from February 2005. Quite frankly, I don't care at all what VWoA says, as VWoA is only in the business of selling cars and nothing else, as I myself had to find out the hard way years ago.

Drew's link refers to something published by Motul, and it also says that VW 507 is "applicable according to manufacturer in all vehicles of the company marks with Longlife service." How that can be misinterpreted, I do not understand.

I don't think LL Service is available on US import VWs, but I don't know for sure, because nobody has told me, and because I really don't care, I will not investigate. Pointing at the original VW bulletin, which is more than clear, is all the effort I'm willing to waste on this.

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#728430 - 10/24/05 11:44 PM Re: VW 504/507
nortones2 Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 211
Loc: UK
Without knowing what changes are made to the PD engines with DPF (injection timing, EGR setting and turbo control via electronics, soot reduction?) there may be issues on the earlier engine that 505.01 formulation is better placed to deal with. I'd back the source Moribundman has cited: i.e. the horses mouth!

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#728431 - 10/25/05 12:26 AM Re: VW 504/507
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46595
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
I guess "messing" is a strong word - it's just I hope they (VW) don't expect the average 'merican joe to keep up with what oil is required........when even the BiTOG woppers barely can read German. [Smile]

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#728432 - 10/30/05 03:25 AM Re: VW 504/507
vwoom Offline


Registered: 09/09/04
Posts: 713
Loc: San Gabriel Valley
quote:
Originally posted by moribundman:
All of those Low (really medium) SAPS oils are approved by VW and all of them are 5W-30:

Agip 7008
Agip Autol Carrera Longlife III
Aral SuperTronic LongLife III
BP Visco 7000 Longlife III
Bucher AG Motorex Profile V-XL
Castrol Castrol SLX LongLife III
Elf Solaris LLX
Galp Formula Longlife III
Mobil 1 ESP Formula
MOL Dynamic Gold Longlife
Pentosin Pento Super Performance III
Repsol Elite Longlife 50700/50400
Shell Ultra VX
SRS Schmierstoff Vertrieb Wintershall ViVA1 SLV plus
Statoil LazerWay LL
VAPS Vapsoil 507 00
Zeller+Gmelin Divinol Syntholight 03


Some of those oils may crop up in the NA market.

Add one more to that list:

 -

TOP TEC 4200 5W-30 [NEW]

Top Tec 4200 is a state-of the-art diesel low-friction motor oil for all season use. The combination of unconventional basic oils using synthetic technology, together with the latest additive technology, guarantees a motor oil that provides exceptional protection against wear and reduces oil and fuel consumption, while ensuring fast oil penetration of the engine. Depending on the manufacturer's instructions, oil change intervals of up to 50,000 km are possible. Top Tec 4200 meets the latest requirements of Euro IV vehicles and is specified as binding for vehicles with a soot particulate filter.
Operational area: Special all season oil for all gasoline and diesel engines of the Audi and Volkswagen group, with the exception of the R5 TDI, V10 TDI engines. Also for diesel vehicles with diesel particulate filter as well as extended maintenance intervals (WIV).

Car manufacturer´s approval: ACEA A3/B4, VW 504 00/507 00

Liqui-Moly

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#728433 - 02/06/06 12:55 AM Re: VW 504/507
Brons2 Offline


Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 2484
Loc: Austin, Texas
I think this is great news for those of use who run gas engines from other manufacturers, a synthetic 5w30 with excellent additives and a high HTHS. Yay VW 507!

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#728434 - 02/06/06 01:29 AM Re: VW 504/507
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
quote:
high HTHS
Barely "normal HTHS" at 3.5 - 3.6. [Wink]

Does anybody have any information regarding TBN of VW 504/507 and ACEA C3 oils?

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#728435 - 02/06/06 04:40 AM Re: VW 504/507
Brons2 Offline


Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 2484
Loc: Austin, Texas
well 3.5 is way better than most dino/blend/syn OTC 5w30s. I'd much rather use a VW 507 rated 5w30 than say M1 5w30.

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#728436 - 02/06/06 09:49 AM Re: VW 504/507
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
Until I know more about them, I am not convinced that ACEA C3 oil are the best choice for engines that were not designed for them. I know that VW says VW 504/507 is backwards compatible, but it may be a less than ideal choice.

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#728437 - 02/06/06 06:32 PM Re: VW 504/507
Extreme-Duty Offline


Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 291
Loc: Schafflund, Germany
yeah, I agree with mori...

"Low SAPS" oils do have lower TBN numbers, but may hold up very good in their proper application => Modern engines requiring these oils. I worry more about their low phosphorus content.

Mori, you have been using M1 T&S and Delo 400 in your Audi, right?

What will you do when our HDEOs turn into 1% sulfated ash CJ-4 oils? Many of the "experts" say CJ-4 will be backward compatible and CI-4+ oils will be discontinued. However, doesn't backward compatible mean that an oil meets the minimum requirements of the previous standard?
Are BITOG members satisfied with minimum quality lubricants?

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#728438 - 02/06/06 09:57 PM Re: VW 504/507
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
Extreme-Duty, I used DELO 400 for an ARX rinse. Other than that I've been using Syntec 5W-40 (~100k mi), M1 0W-40 (~5k mi) and for the last couple oil changes M1 5W-40 (~16k mi).

I like oils that have a sulfated ash content of around 1.2%. If CI-4(+) oil becomes unavailable, I'm sure oils that meet ACEA A3 will be available for quite some time.

I don't think that backwards compatibility automatically implies that the newer spec meets only the minimum requirements for older engines, but I'll reserve judgement until there is some evidence (UOA results and reports of problems) one way or the other.

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#728439 - 02/08/06 04:54 AM Re: VW 504/507
Brons2 Offline


Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 2484
Loc: Austin, Texas
quote:
Until I know more about them, I am not convinced that ACEA C3 oil are the best choice for engines that were not designed for them. I know that VW says VW 504/507 is backwards compatible, but it may be a less than ideal choice.
Can you explain further, or point me towards a resource for reading materials on this?

I have a Nissan Titan and from a lot of the UOA's I've seen, it seems to like an A3 rated oil, but there aren't a lot of 5w30 oils like that, and GC is hard to find. I would prefer the thinnest Euro rated oil I can find as the truck does tons of short trips.

Right now I am using Schaeffer 5w30 synblend. We'll see how that goes at my next UOA.

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#728440 - 02/08/06 07:22 AM Re: VW 504/507
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
I wish I could give you more information, but it's hard to come by and I've spilled all the beans I had. [Wink] From what I heard, VW 504/507 has a sulphated ash limit of 0.5%. TBN appears to generally be around 5-6, which is pretty low. I can only presume that these formulations work very well with the latest engines that were designed with this type oil in mind, but as I said, I doubt that backwards compatibility implies that these new oils are ideal for other engines.

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