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#3262708 - 01/28/14 01:51 PM Re: FAQ - GC ( German Castrol ) [Re: OVERKILL]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: edyvw

You named all advantages of Mobil, but they still sell you cheaper base oil then PAO base oil.


In some of their products, yes, they use Group III and VISOM. The percentage of what base stock varies by what the intended performance target is.

Quote:
I would not be surprised in XOM sells PAO base stocks to Motul.


Neither would I, they probably do.

Quote:
However, for their product they decided to go with GIII+.


No, for their product they decided to go with a BLEND of base oils that, in the current iteration, contains LESS PAO than it did previously; less than the 50% or so necessary to be classified as "full synthetic" in Germany.

Though I do find it rather amusing that we are discussing this in relation to Castrol, who started the whole group III thing in the first place and probably uses more of it in their products than Mobil does.

Quote:
If it can meet specs it is enough, so why not make more money? Right? So by your argument, M1 GIII+ oil is better then Motul PAO based oil, or RL Ester based oil? Because XOM is largest chemical company? They care about our well being? On the paper I would say that RL is far better then M1, and you pay the price for that.


Actually, on paper, the oil with the most approvals wins. Because it has gone through the most testing and has a verified track record of providing protection under a myriad of conditions, many of them incredibly demanding.

And as noted in the XOM product roadmap, VISOM was designed to be an intermediate product to be used to supplement PAO in current formulations until the products eventually migrate to GTL.... Which is ALSO group III. See, that's the problem with these classifications. PAO is just one type of base oil, as is GTL, VISOM....etc. There are a number of base oils which fall under the group III moniker yet they are not all the same. Similar to how there are many types of esters that classify as group V. But then there are AN's, which ALSO fall under group V.

Does XOM make more money with VISOM than they do with PAO? Arguably, yes. But that doesn't make them an inferior base oil choice. Heck, Castrol is probably buying the PAO that they use in whatever quantity they use it in for GC FROM XOM!!

And XOM being the largest petrochemical company is relevant because of economies of scale. They probably have more engineers on staff than many of the smaller blenders do combined. They have the resources to develop the best product in the world if they wanted to. And how do we know they haven't? You know what they say about assumptions right wink

At the end of the day, the performance of the product is what speaks to its quality. I personally think the best metric of determining just what that performance is can be gleaned by looking at the OEM testing regiments and using those as a benchmark. That is, the product with the most approvals is arguably the best performing product. In that case, it could be argued that M1 0w-40 and GC carry very similar levels of performance. Mobil has the advantage of also carrying the (very demanding) Porsche approval, which is also carried by PU 5w-40. But for most of what is being discussed here there really is no performance difference between the products that we can see by looking at a PDS or standing around with an ear horn with our hoods open.


Several things first: GC cannot carry A40 spec bcs it is W30. It did before while Porsche allowed W30 oils. BC on other hand, does not have that issue, it carries that approval, as well as Pentosin.
I would not say that Castrol or SOPUS are buying PAO from XOM. They might, but who knows. I know for a fact that for example Castrol buys base oils from some very small oil companies.
Number of engineers? Why is that important if company is trying to squeeze last cent out of the product? Their engineers, I am sure, can develop best oil in the world. Question is: Does XOM policy allow them to do that?
On other hand, companies like Motul, RL etc, need to have superior product in order to survive.
And who says that oil with most approval wins? As far as I know, M1, BC, PU carry same approvals. I think that LADA approval is not something that works for the benefit of M1, since regular Olive oil from Wal Mart can meet that:)
Also, if you are referring to Nissan GT-r (which is not approval) then let's all start buying PU considering it goes to Ferrari. That does not make any sense.
Now, if M1 meets MB 229.5 and GC does not, then it would be different story, but they both meet same.
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#3262787 - 01/28/14 03:14 PM Re: FAQ - GC ( German Castrol ) [Re: FD777]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7369
Loc: Saskatoon canada
There was a time I got hung up on base oils however I've evolved and have learned a few things thanks to the good folks at bitog.
As far as visom is concerned yes it seems the 0w-40 lost a few degrees of cold temp pour point however it got better in other areas such as deposit control which is a huge deal with direct injection engines.
The way I see it Mobil is mixing a wide range of basestocks,taking advantage of each ones strengths and formulating a blend that is as good as or better than what it's replaced and at lesser cost.
We know that gtl is a group 3 base yet it outperforms pao on so many levels why even use pao when gtl is available,at lesser cost.
I hate Mobil but I will admit I like that they've found a way to take the best aspects of cheaper basestocks and formulate a world class oil that will compete with any oil put beside it,and it costs less to the consumer.
So in the end I couldn't care less if the bottle says synthetic,I care about how the product performs in service and if it costs me less to be able to use this oil the. I'm all for it.
The finished formulation is what matters,how a chemist achieves the performance characteristics required isn't relevant. What is relevant is that the lube performs to the required spec.
And if when it's all said and done the product costs half as much as the other formulations that also meet the required spec what kind of idiot pays more to get the same results. Kinda dumb right.
The reason Mobil is cheaper is because of their infrastructure and scale, they can produce massive amounts of product that end up costing them less and they sell it at a profit to other blenders,and mobile cost is far less so they can blend a comparable product for less because they produced the raw materials,and didn't have to buy them from a producer.
I'm not sure I explained that right but when less hands touch a commodity less hands mark the commodity up so in the end Mobil can produce top tier products for less because they are the producer.
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#3262818 - 01/28/14 03:44 PM Re: FAQ - GC ( German Castrol ) [Re: edyvw]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26430
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: edyvw
[
You said they are the biggest. Yes, that is why I do not trust them. I trust more Pentosin that makes oil in suburbs of Hamburg, where worker is paid good, has all benefits, healthcare etc, then M1 that tries to lower the cost of production at every possible way.


So you don't trust Mobil because they are huge crzy

And what evidence do you have that Mobil treats their employees worse than Pentosin just because they are larger?

Quote:
Same goes for RL, Motul. Castrol is in a same boat as XOM. That is why they have NJ plant, cheeper production, also their 5W40 meets VW specs. It meets specs like GC and BC when it comes to VW and BMW. So, does that makes Castrol 5W40 same product like GC or BC? Heck NO!


Quite the contrary it means in respect to those applications, HECK YES! If it meets the spec, that means it provides performance that is in-line with what is required by BMW and VW. Does it mean it would be able to withstand a more rigorous testing regiment? Perhaps no, but if the engine never comes close to testing those limits, do you really believe there is a performance advantage being realized here?

Quote:
But there is reason for that. In EU they cannot play the same game like in the U.S. You know: big government is bad, regulation is bad, corporations know the best. Well, that is what happens when corporations lobby around DC. You get in the U.S. Fully Synthetic M1, but in Germany it needs to be labeled as SHC. And there is reason for that, simply, it is NOT full synthetic oil, regardless that it meets all specs.


You appear to be interchanging the EU and Germany here. The HC thing ONLY applies to Germany, not the EU. So yes, in the EU they can play the exact same "games" as you call them.

Quote:
Still, M1 is not even close to what it was in Europe when it comes to the image. They became just one of the oils. Shell Helix is more regarded now in Europe then M1, which has never been the case. Castrol with their line of products is more regarded. If you go to M1 page in Germany, you will see that M1 does not offer anymore Full Synthetic oils. So they are trying to play cheaper game, something that American car industry did. M1=Meets all specs, who cares, plus it is cheap. American car industry: it drives+it is cheap: who cares. Well we all know how that ended up.


This whole post sounds like a rather drawn-out opinion piece on why big and successful companies like Mobil are the devil and why we should automatically assume that products from smaller blenders are for some reason, probably blind faith, somehow superior smirk
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#3262836 - 01/28/14 04:01 PM Re: FAQ - GC ( German Castrol ) [Re: edyvw]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26430
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: edyvw


Several things first: GC cannot carry A40 spec bcs it is W30. It did before while Porsche allowed W30 oils. BC on other hand, does not have that issue, it carries that approval, as well as Pentosin.
I would not say that Castrol or SOPUS are buying PAO from XOM. They might, but who knows. I know for a fact that for example Castrol buys base oils from some very small oil companies.


OK? That's exactly in-line with what I said, that arguably the two oils probably provide identical performance. I'm not sure where the disconnect is here? shrug

Quote:
Number of engineers? Why is that important if company is trying to squeeze last cent out of the product?


So you assume they are paying MORE people so they can possibly irk another couple of cents out of a quart of oil? And here I thought they employed those people because they are necessary to keep the leading edge on product development and in order to work hand-in-hand with the numerous OEM's they have development relationships with. smirk

Quote:
Their engineers, I am sure, can develop best oil in the world. Question is: Does XOM policy allow them to do that?


Do you have evidence that there is policy in place that would dictate that they cannot do this? This sounds like a big game of "well I hate the giant evil multi-billion dollar corporations with thousands of engineers on staff therefore they cannot possibly develop the best product, they must have some form of corporate policy in place to ensure this" tinfoil hat party.... shrug

Quote:
On other hand, companies like Motul, RL etc, need to have superior product in order to survive.


You mean products that people perceive to be superior. Kind of like what you are demonstrating right now wink I've got a secret for you: Motul, Mobil and Redline could all produce the EXACT SAME quart of oil and it would cost Mobil far less to make it because of the economies of scale thing I mentioned earlier. They could source ALL the components in-house, blend it there, test it there.....etc.

It is like me having a fully furnished wood shop in my garage and an acreage of oak out back and you living in an apartment. We are both tasked with building an oak cabinet. I can go out back, cut down the tree and build the entire thing in my garage. My total cost is very little because I have all the equipment and supplies on-hand. You on the other hand would have to rent shop space and/or tools, buy the wood from somebody who carries it....etc. Not a perfect analogy but it basically demonstrates the concept here.

Quote:
And who says that oil with most approval wins?


I believe I said I do.

Quote:
As far as I know, M1, BC, PU carry same approvals.


Then they all provide similar levels of performance.

Quote:
I think that LADA approval is not something that works for the benefit of M1, since regular Olive oil from Wal Mart can meet that:)


That's a bit of a red herring though. The approvals that matter are all basically the same across the flagship products being discussed, ergo, in the vast majority of applications they will provide what is essentially identical performance.

Quote:
Also, if you are referring to Nissan GT-r (which is not approval)


Nope, I specifically mentioned the Porsche approval in my comparison to GC as one of the certs that, for the reason already discussed, isn't carried by both oils.

Quote:
then let's all start buying PU considering it goes to Ferrari. That does not make any sense.


Actually, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what SOPUS is banking on, since they use Ferrari in their adverts.

Quote:
Now, if M1 meets MB 229.5 and GC does not, then it would be different story, but they both meet same.


Which brings us full-circle back to the oils providing essentially identical performance crzy

That was a fun ride.........
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#3262868 - 01/28/14 04:44 PM Re: FAQ - GC ( German Castrol ) [Re: OVERKILL]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Wait, you claim that based on MB229.5, both GC and M1 provide essentially same performance? But then GC cannot meet A40?
You giving contradictory statements.


Edited by edyvw (01/28/14 04:45 PM)
_________________________
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#3262873 - 01/28/14 04:47 PM Re: FAQ - GC ( German Castrol ) [Re: edyvw]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26430
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Wait, you claim that based on MB229.5, both GC and M1 provide essentially same performance? But then GC cannot meet A40?
You giving contradictory statements.


Where did I say that? I said they provide essentially the same performance. I said that the only difference was that GC didn't carry the Porsche approval.

Since we already know WHY GC can't carry the Porsche approval, it doesn't really matter does it?

I don't believe anything I've stated can be construed as contradictory. Perhaps you just aren't reading it correctly?
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#3263096 - 01/28/14 07:59 PM Re: FAQ - GC ( German Castrol ) [Re: OVERKILL]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
[quote=edyvw]

Quote:
So you assume they are paying MORE people so they can possibly irk another couple of cents out of a quart of oil? And here I thought they employed those people because they are necessary to keep the leading edge on product development and in order to work hand-in-hand with the numerous OEM's they have development relationships with. smirk

Off course not, I am saying that policy is to maximize profit margin, and meet specs. They could make better product, more expensive product, but there is a thing called: shareholders.

[quote]Do you have evidence that there is policy in place that would dictate that they cannot do this? This sounds like a big game of "well I hate the giant evil multi-billion dollar corporations with thousands of engineers on staff therefore they cannot possibly develop the best product, they must have some form of corporate policy in place to ensure this" tinfoil hat party.... shrug

Precisely: That is why I have car loan and house loan from Credit Union, not Wells Fargo or Chase. Chase and WF have thousands accountants, best ones, but I do not think they are there to help me get best APR.

Quote:
You mean products that people perceive to be superior. Kind of like what you are demonstrating right now wink I've got a secret for you: Motul, Mobil and Redline could all produce the EXACT SAME quart of oil and it would cost Mobil far less to make it because of the economies of scale thing I mentioned earlier. They could source ALL the components in-house, blend it there, test it there.....etc.

It is like me having a fully furnished wood shop in my garage and an acreage of oak out back and you living in an apartment. We are both tasked with building an oak cabinet. I can go out back, cut down the tree and build the entire thing in my garage. My total cost is very little because I have all the equipment and supplies on-hand. You on the other hand would have to rent shop space and/or tools, buy the wood from somebody who carries it....etc. Not a perfect analogy but it basically demonstrates the concept here.

Yeah, I kind of going what people perceive not what Mobil says or some other company! I learned long time ago that for example slogan "Leading Synthetic Company" from that company, does not mean anything.


Quote:
I believe I said I do.

So what specs M1 meets that Motul or Pentosin does not?

Quote:
Then they all provide similar levels of performance.

True, but in for example jet engine that is not enough, so that is why they use POE oils. When I pay for car xxxx amount of bucks, I want best, not similar. In my line of work, if I suggested my friends to use replacement for POE based jet engine oils, well, it would not go well:)

Quote:
Nope, I specifically mentioned the Porsche approval in my comparison to GC as one of the certs that, for the reason already discussed, isn't carried by both oils.

But you said that approval between GC and M1 is not relevant?


Quote:
Actually, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what SOPUS is banking on, since they use Ferrari in their adverts.

Off course, same like M1. That is my point, just because M1 has a deal with Nissan, does not mean anything. But your point was: oil with most approvals. By that argument, Shell Helix wins. It goes into Ferrari. When you think of sports car, GT-R is def not the first one, probably it is Ferrari. Ferrari is Ferrari, Nissan is, oh well, Nissan. To be clear, would like to have GT-R in garage:). Other then this, both PU 5W40, M1 and BC meet same specs, as well as Motul, Pentosin, LM etc.
But, I trust more the one that is true synthetic then the one that is HC.



Edited by edyvw (01/28/14 08:03 PM)
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#3263149 - 01/28/14 08:48 PM Re: FAQ - GC ( German Castrol ) [Re: edyvw]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26430
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: edyvw

Off course not, I am saying that policy is to maximize profit margin, and meet specs. They could make better product, more expensive product, but there is a thing called: shareholders.


Interesting wording. The general rule for a company, any company that wants to survive is to make money. Just because Mobil has made a lot of it doesn't mean they are any different than their smaller peers that have not managed to reach that size. Ergo, Mobil is no more or less committed to making a quality product than any of the companies you pretend carry some sort of golden halo of morality because they are "the little guy".

Quote:

Precisely: That is why I have car loan and house loan from Credit Union, not Wells Fargo or Chase. Chase and WF have thousands accountants, best ones, but I do not think they are there to help me get best APR.


So you are admitting to hating Mobil (and large corporations in general) because of their size here. That puts you in a rather awkward position to have a rational discussion about this don't you think? I mean having a vendetta against those being discussed hardly makes for an unbiased conversation wink

Quote:

Yeah, I kind of going what people perceive not what Mobil says or some other company! I learned long time ago that for example slogan "Leading Synthetic Company" from that company, does not mean anything.


LOL, you might as well consult a psychic then because the "data" you are going to come up with here doesn't even come close to the massive amount of testing Mobil does of their own products, nor the testing done by the various OEM's it works with. The same goes for SOPUS, BP....etc.


Quote:

So what specs M1 meets that Motul or Pentosin does not?


What? I said the oil with the most approvals wins. If they all carry the same approvals they all win. You seem to be struggling with this. Just because it costs Mobil less to make the product due to their economies of scale doesn't make their product inferior. And just because Motul is a "little guy" relative to Mobil doesn't make their product superior.

Quote:

True, but in for example jet engine that is not enough, so that s why they use POE oils. When I pay for car xxxx amount of bucks, I want best, not similar.


And what relevance exactly does a jet engine have to an automobile engine? And what proof do you have that just because oil A works well on the space shuttle, that this must mean it is the best for your car??? Talk about hyperbole sir!!!

Follow me here: This is why we have OEM testing and approval procedures, to DO that testing. If an oil passes the test, it is appropriate for your application. To quote our own Doug Hillary when he asked the engineers AT PORSCHE what was the best oil and their reply was that "all the oils on the approval list basically performed the EXACT SAME!!!"

Quote:

But you said that approval between GC and M1 is not relevant?


Huh? I said it isn't relevant because we both acknowledge the fact that it USED TO CARRY IT before Porsche only called for 40-weight oils on their approval list, essentially preventing GC from being approved even if it could pass the testing. Therefore, that particular test isn't relevant when contrasting the approval lists of those two oils.


Quote:

Off course, same like M1. That is my point,


What is your point? I was discounting the GT-R endorsement (that you thought I was referencing) because it isn't really an "approval" like the Euro ones are, that's why approvals like the Porsche, Mercedes....etc ones generally ARE relevant (assuming they can be obtained for a given grade), because they are carried by most of the major Euro oils. And now YOU are referencing the same thing you asked if I was referencing and saying HA HA! SEE!!!! confused

Quote:
just because M1 has a deal with Nissan, does not mean anything.


It means they have a deal with Nissan. I don't see where you are going with this shrug

Quote:
But your point was: oil with most approvals.


Yes, and how that plays out seems to be going right over your head based on this conversation.

Quote:
By that argument, Shell Helix wins. It goes into Ferrari. When you think of sports car, GT-R is def not the first one, probably it is Ferrari. Ferrari is Ferrari, Nissan is, oh well, Nissan. To be clear, would like to have GT-R in garage:). Other then this, both PU 5W40, M1 and BC meet same specs, as well as Motul, Pentosin, LM etc.




So then they all perform the same where it is relevant!

Do I need to quote myself from several pages back where I said that and you went on about GC being a better choice for cold locations and that it was a better oil because it has PAO in it?

Now here we are pages later and Mobil is the devil because they are the most successful oil company and SOPUS is now the best because they have Ferrari factory fill........ I thought GC was the best because it had PAO??? crzy

This is a fun adventure, I feel like I've been on the deck of the Black Pearl when it journeyed into limbo and Jack got lost in the desert.


Let's try this one more time: The oil with the most factory approvals is the "best" oil. If five oils all have the same extensive list of relevant approvals, they have ALL passed the same degree of rigorous OEM testing and are subsequently ALL the "best" oil. It doesn't matter if one oil has two tablespoons more PAO in it or not. It doesn't matter if its base oil blend was also used to lube the wingnuts on the space station, that's all speculation and extrapolation with no real basis in fact. If it passed the testing requirements for your car and then some, it is going to provide adequate protection. That doesn't mean it is going to be quiet. That doesn't mean you won't have start-up noise, it means the OEM's have tested the oil and the oil has been demonstrated to pass the requirements of their testing protocols. If that doesn't give you the warm and fuzzies and you want the oil manufactured by the little guy because you feel some emotional connection with him and think he blesses his product with fairy dust, awesome! That's your prerogative and you are more than entitled to voice that as your opinion. But that doesn't mean you can tell me that this oil is somehow better because of that. If it carries the same approvals and passes the same testing, it will provide comparable performance. It doesn't matter if it costs 3x more.

Originally Posted By: edyvw

But, I trust more the one that is true synthetic then the one that is HC.


And here we are back at square one with the focus on base oils and not performance. What you trust doesn't change the facts. It doesn't change the approvals. It doesn't change the results of the testing. It is an irrational emotional tie to a psychological hang-up on base oil type dictating the performance of the product when in reality that isn't the case.
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#3263175 - 01/28/14 09:13 PM Re: FAQ - GC ( German Castrol ) [Re: edyvw]
Rand Online   content


Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 7773
Loc: Barberton,Ohio
Edyvw:
base oil does not equal performance.

Its been known for quite awhile that while PAO is superior in some aspects they are poor in others Which is where additive packages come in.

you need a properly engineered product, base oil is ok but I'd rather see approvals than "base" everything on the base oil.

What if the additives they use to make the pao oil work leave more deposits in turbos than the other companies GIII+ base product that needs less additives and produces less deposits.

example the HTO-06 spec.

Just going off half-baked and opinionated makes me




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#3263184 - 01/28/14 09:21 PM Re: FAQ - GC ( German Castrol ) [Re: FD777]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7369
Loc: Saskatoon canada
As we bitogers all figure out at some point one single component of an oil doesn't mean squat,it's the finished formulation that's important. It's just that simple.
Eddy
I'm with you man. I hate Mobil with a passion however the fact still remains they formulate quality products,and can hang with product that cost twice as much which is tough to ignore. And I'm all about dollars and keeping more of them in my pocket and if that means this week M1 is on special then that means I'm buying it,whether I hate them or not. The product performs as it should therefore its a good value. Only a fool pays more than they have to no matter what perceived advantage when the truth is there isn't one,because they all meet the required spec.
And pao isn't all that great anyways. The additive package doesn't dissolve in it all that great which means more elements need to be added to achieve the required performance and pao isn't polar which means no magnetic attraction to help keep an oil film on metal at start up.
Sure pao has some advantages however today's group 3 hydrocracked and gtl base oils have better additive solubility which means less are required,which means less costly to make,they are polar and the list goes on.
I used to feel exactly as you do eddy until I learned that lubricants are evolving for the better everyday and a formulator can use a variety of different methods to achieve an end result,as long as that end result meets the required spec then its as good as it has to be to provide the protection the oem demands,which is why they created the spec for their particular engines.
Pao,poe,DI-ester,doesn't matter if the additive package isn't balanced properly then problems will arise.
An engine oil is a balancing act,and a series of compromises in order to achieve a desired quality. How its achieved is irrelevant.
And M1 0w-40 in its present state has shown beautifully in every used oil analysis I've seen and that includes track days and extended miles. It meets the long life requirement of all the euro Marques and does it at a reasonable cost.
The truth of the matter is Mobil has better tech, period. They can formulate a world class oil for less than anyone else because they have technology that others don't have,and they pass that savings on to the consumer,in America anyways.
Sounds like a win for the little guy to be honest.......ME,and my wallet.
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#3263196 - 01/28/14 09:29 PM Re: FAQ - GC ( German Castrol ) [Re: OVERKILL]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Mobil1 is not the devil! Is it the best? NO! Do I think GC is better? Off course! Same goes for BC.
If Mobil1 wants to make HC oil, that is fine by me. Tried it 3 times so far, all three times came to same conclusion:
Rough cold start, stronger gas smell from oil then with GC.
So you can sing praises to M1, but it is not what it used to be.
You can spin what I said. You implied that GC does not meet A40, so it is inferior, or as you would say: M1 meets more requirements. Then when I sad why, well then they are not similar, that is why I mentioned Ferrari, as an example that two oils with same approvals does mean they are same. That means that M1 and some cheap oil made in Turkey are similar? So you would go ahead and put that in M5?
I know I would not.
Same thing with Mobil. Why would I use oil that makes more noise and obviously retains more fuel, when there are oils that are smoother? Call me old fashioned, but if oil makes engine rougher, then there s some reason for that. And I know you fallow forum, there are bunch of BMW owners who complain about that.
So why that best of the best companies cannot make smoother oil, with thousands of engineers? They cannot, because they are trying to get last cent out of bottle.
You imply some emotional attachment. I do not have emotional attachment, but I do like companies that do have public responsibility etc, both Castrol and M1 are not prime example of public responsibility.
That is why I mentioned that I do not buy in Wal Mart, all things considered. It is just who I am, and I am willing to pay more, so I might as well buy RL 5W30 from local guy here, regardless that it is $11.49 a quart. And I know what kind of base oil they use. At least they are that transparent.
_________________________
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#3263204 - 01/28/14 09:37 PM Re: FAQ - GC ( German Castrol ) [Re: edyvw]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26430
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Mobil1 is not the devil! Is it the best? NO! Do I think GC is better? Off course! Same goes for BC.
If Mobil1 wants to make HC oil, that is fine by me. Tried it 3 times so far, all three times came to same conclusion:
Rough cold start, stronger gas smell from oil then with GC.
So you can sing praises to M1, but it is not what it used to be.
You can spin what I said. You implied that GC does not meet A40, so it is inferior, or as you would say: M1 meets more requirements. Then when I sad why, well then they are not similar, that is why I mentioned Ferrari, as an example that two oils with same approvals does mean they are same. That means that M1 and some cheap oil made in Turkey are similar? So you would go ahead and put that in M5?
I know I would not.
Same thing with Mobil. Why would I use oil that makes more noise and obviously retains more fuel, when there are oils that are smoother? Call me old fashioned, but if oil makes engine rougher, then there s some reason for that. And I know you fallow forum, there are bunch of BMW owners who complain about that.
So why that best of the best companies cannot make smoother oil, with thousands of engineers? They cannot, because they are trying to get last cent out of bottle.
You imply some emotional attachment. I do not have emotional attachment, but I do like companies that do have public responsibility etc, both Castrol and M1 are not prime example of public responsibility.
That is why I mentioned that I do not buy in Wal Mart, all things considered. It is just who I am, and I am willing to pay more, so I might as well buy RL 5W30 from local guy here, regardless that it is $11.49 a quart. And I know what kind of base oil they use. At least they are that transparent.


This whole post is emotional attachment. It carries no facts, figures, anything. And you are misquoting me on a number of points, I'm not even going to bother dissecting this one as per my usual practice, it just isn't worth it at this point.

I didn't IMPLY anything bud. I STATED many things. Attempted to clarify them when you misunderstood yet here we are again, back at the beginning talking about what you feel and hear and ignoring the facts about the products and what those facts tell us and that is that GC isn't better than M1 0w-40 no matter if it plays Beethoven in your ears and M1 sounds like nails on a chalkboard. They provide comparable performance; ALL of the approved oils provide comparable performance. You can scream otherwise until you are blue in the face but that won't change what the testing proves.
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#3263223 - 01/28/14 09:52 PM Re: FAQ - GC ( German Castrol ) [Re: Clevy]
jamesyarbrough Offline


Registered: 01/17/14
Posts: 295
Loc: Denison TX
Originally Posted By: Clevy
As we bitogers all figure out at some point one single component of an oil doesn't mean squat,it's the finished formulation that's important. It's just that simple.
Eddy
I'm with you man. I hate Mobil with a passion however the fact still remains they formulate quality products,and can hang with product that cost twice as much which is tough to ignore. And I'm all about dollars and keeping more of them in my pocket and if that means this week M1 is on special then that means I'm buying it,whether I hate them or not. The product performs as it should therefore its a good value. Only a fool pays more than they have to no matter what perceived advantage when the truth is there isn't one,because they all meet the required spec.
And pao isn't all that great anyways. The additive package doesn't dissolve in it all that great which means more elements need to be added to achieve the required performance and pao isn't polar which means no magnetic attraction to help keep an oil film on metal at start up.
Sure pao has some advantages however today's group 3 hydrocracked and gtl base oils have better additive solubility which means less are required,which means less costly to make,they are polar and the list goes on.
I used to feel exactly as you do eddy until I learned that lubricants are evolving for the better everyday and a formulator can use a variety of different methods to achieve an end result,as long as that end result meets the required spec then its as good as it has to be to provide the protection the oem demands,which is why they created the spec for their particular engines.
Pao,poe,DI-ester,doesn't matter if the additive package isn't balanced properly then problems will arise.
An engine oil is a balancing act,and a series of compromises in order to achieve a desired quality. How its achieved is irrelevant.
And M1 0w-40 in its present state has shown beautifully in every used oil analysis I've seen and that includes track days and extended miles. It meets the long life requirement of all the euro Marques and does it at a reasonable cost.
The truth of the matter is Mobil has better tech, period. They can formulate a world class oil for less than anyone else because they have technology that others don't have,and they pass that savings on to the consumer,in America anyways.
Sounds like a win for the little guy to be honest.......ME,and my wallet.



Very well put. Cheers2
_________________________
2006 F-150 M1 0w40 & Bosch
2004 Explorer M1HM 5w30 & Bosch
1986 Lincoln SA200 T6 5w40 & Wix

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#3263230 - 01/28/14 10:01 PM Re: FAQ - GC ( German Castrol ) [Re: edyvw]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I do not have emotional attachment,

You're in denial. Unless you can bring hard data showing clear performance benefits of one MB 229.5 oil over another, we're just going to be spinning in circles here.

So you noticed rough cold start with M1, but that's just a sample of one. We can hardly acknowledge it as generally accepted proof that GC is better. There are plenty others who have not noticed such behavior with M1. It's obviously of concern to you personally, but let's try to stay objective here if we can.


Quote:
And I know what kind of base oil they use. At least they are that transparent.

Dude, lay off the whole base oil mantra already. A base oil alone does not a good oil make. smile
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
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#3263236 - 01/28/14 10:19 PM Re: FAQ - GC ( German Castrol ) [Re: Clevy]
Rand Online   content


Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 7773
Loc: Barberton,Ohio
+1 clevy I was going to type out all that.. but got lazy and just linked the picard dblfacepalm instead.

Major weaknesses of PAO
1.not polar
2.very weak additive solubility
3.Seal compatibility.


Originally Posted By: Clevy
As we bitogers all figure out at some point one single component of an oil doesn't mean squat,it's the finished formulation that's important. It's just that simple.
Eddy
I'm with you man. I hate Mobil with a passion however the fact still remains they formulate quality products,and can hang with product that cost twice as much which is tough to ignore. And I'm all about dollars and keeping more of them in my pocket and if that means this week M1 is on special then that means I'm buying it,whether I hate them or not. The product performs as it should therefore its a good value. Only a fool pays more than they have to no matter what perceived advantage when the truth is there isn't one,because they all meet the required spec.
And pao isn't all that great anyways. The additive package doesn't dissolve in it all that great which means more elements need to be added to achieve the required performance and pao isn't polar which means no magnetic attraction to help keep an oil film on metal at start up.
Sure pao has some advantages however today's group 3 hydrocracked and gtl base oils have better additive solubility which means less are required,which means less costly to make,they are polar and the list goes on.
I used to feel exactly as you do eddy until I learned that lubricants are evolving for the better everyday and a formulator can use a variety of different methods to achieve an end result,as long as that end result meets the required spec then its as good as it has to be to provide the protection the oem demands,which is why they created the spec for their particular engines.
Pao,poe,DI-ester,doesn't matter if the additive package isn't balanced properly then problems will arise.
An engine oil is a balancing act,and a series of compromises in order to achieve a desired quality. How its achieved is irrelevant.
And M1 0w-40 in its present state has shown beautifully in every used oil analysis I've seen and that includes track days and extended miles. It meets the long life requirement of all the euro Marques and does it at a reasonable cost.
The truth of the matter is Mobil has better tech, period. They can formulate a world class oil for less than anyone else because they have technology that others don't have,and they pass that savings on to the consumer,in America anyways.
Sounds like a win for the little guy to be honest.......ME,and my wallet.
_________________________
2015 Forester I-Premium 6MT


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