Honda ATF-Z1, 2002 Honda Odyssey, 10,430 miles

[btanchors]

Hello everyone,

This is the second UOA on my 2002 Honda Odyssey's transmission. Those of you familiar with this model know that this transmission has a terrible reputation - with complete failure as early as less than 10K miles, and failures between 30-50K miles common. I have indeed been experiencing some rough shifting, and my wife claims it has slipped on the 2-3 shift on a couple of occasions, although I haven't experienced this myself yet. Note that this Odyssey has the optional transmission cooler installed on it. The most recent numbers are on the right side.

Date of Sample: 4/3/2004, 12/30/2004
Miles on Vehicle: 29,941, 40,430
Miles on oil: 29,941, 10,430

Iron: 95, 31
Chromium: 1, Nickel: Aluminum: 98*, 34
Lead: 6, Copper: 15, 6
Tin: 1, Silver: Titanium: Silicon: 15, 8
Boron: 305, 341
Sodium: 10, 3
Potassium: Molybdenum: Phosphorus: 18, 21
Zinc: 333, 413
Calcium: 325, 261
Barium: 12, Magnesium: 187, 429
Antimony: Vanadium:
Oil added: 0.00, 0.00
Water, %Vol: VIS CS 40C: 24.7, 27.7
TAN: 1.35, 1.07

Comments from the lab: Analysis indicates conditions requiring close monitoring. Aluminum may indicate torque converter or pump wear. Material may be partly residual from previous levels. Material may be from oxides. Check for rough shifting, unusual noise or vibration, and excessive metal in the filters or sump. Resample at 1/2 normal interval. Note that after the first UOA on 4/3/2004, I thoroughly flushed the transmission, replacing it with Genuine Honda ATF-Z1. I ran 18 quarts through the transmission - It took several hours. I did not replace the filter, as it appears difficult to get to, on top of the engine but underneath the plastic shroud. I'm not sure what to make of the statement "Material may be from Oxides". Does this mean the ATF may have overheated? I think this is very unlikely, given that I have an auxilliary ATF cooler, and the TAN level is only 1.07. I occasionally tow a small 4x6 trailer, but only for a few miles at a time [moving lawn mowers between my house and a storage facility]

Comments?

 

[The Critic]

Hmm if I'm not mistaken, wasn't your Odyssey affected by the Transmission Recall? My neighbor had to have the Transmission replaced on his '01 and it only had 59K on it. He was experiencing the same problems that you are experiencing. Just to mention, he never used the Honda ATF either.

 

[btanchors]

Michael,

Mine indeed is affected by the recall. I have not taken it in yet. The recall does not address the cause of the majority of the transmission failures. Quite Frankly, I think the transmission is going to die soon anyway, so I figured I would wait for it to die, then take it in for replacement. If I had taken it in right away, they would install the extra oil jet required by the recall, and send me on my way. Then, the transmission would fail and I would have to go back. I hate going to the dealer. Unfortunately, the transmission has lasted longer than I thought it would. So I am planning to bite the bullet and take it in for the recall. Of course, I plan to take the oil analysis results in with me, but I doubt that is enough for them to replace it - The rough shifting/slipping is intermittent and I doubt it will happen for the technician until it gets significantly worse....

 

[The Critic]

quote:

---

Originally posted by btanchors:
Michael,

Mine indeed is affected by the recall. I have not taken it in yet. The recall does not address the cause of the majority of the transmission failures. Quite Frankly, I think the transmission is going to die soon anyway, so I figured I would wait for it to die, then take it in for replacement. If I had taken it in right away, they would install the extra oil jet required by the recall, and send me on my way. Then, the transmission would fail and I would have to go back. I hate going to the dealer. Unfortunately, the transmission has lasted longer than I thought it would. So I am planning to bite the bullet and take it in for the recall. Of course, I plan to take the oil analysis results in with me, but I doubt that is enough for them to replace it - The rough shifting/slipping is intermittent and I doubt it will happen for the technician until it gets significantly worse....

---

Funny this is, is that, my next door neighbor took his in right away, and they replaced the transmission with no questions asked. Surprisingly, they didn't even say anything about him not using the correct fluid. If your transmission is having such serious problems, it should be obvious to them that it requires more than just an oil jet. If not, your analysis results will be helpful in negotiating with the service dept. if necessary.

 

[the_oil_dealer]

that Honda Z1 is a 'remedy' type of ATF, very highly friction modified to compensate for a poor design. Other manufacturers that seem to do this are Chrysler ATF+ and Ford, with their Mercon V. While I like the idea of a higher quality fluid, there is only so much that it can do to compensate. Its also very sad that manufacturers like Honda will not publish the specs for the Z1 and make it consumers responsibility to buy their proprietary fluid at exuberant prices. I suspect that Z1 and ATF+3/4 have very similar properties.

 

[Tones]

Honda is not the only one using a highly-friction-modified ATF. AFAIK, these HFM fluids are common to all of the newer Asin-Warner transmissions, most of which do not have problems.

 

[ex_MGB]

Wonder which is better for the average automatic:

1. Run transmission on same ATF up to normal maintenance interval then do a machine flush and replace fluid with OEM ATF.

or

2. At every 7500 mile engine oil change drain what amount of ATF comes out (3.2 qts out of 8.5 or thereabouts on an Ody) and top up and then at the normal maintence interval do the previous step 4 times with short drives in between.

Can't imagine the cost for the DIYer would be much different between the two.

 

[Al]

It seems I'm always mentioning Terry's name. I'm not getting a commission from him-honest

. Anyway-you really should get an opinion from Terry giving him both analysis. If there is a problem-Terry will indicate that in a written report. That might be enough to get Honda to spring for a new transmission. It does seem like you might have a problem.

 

[Fred Bear]

I disagree that the Honda does not address the cause of the transmission recall. The cause is the second gear overheats from lack of oil. The recall DOES address that by putting oil where it is needed. Honda/Acura seem to have been very forthcoming with information.
We have a Honda Pilot and we were not recalled, my dad’s Odyssey was recalled and the repair was done. I thought the oil jet was a novel idea and praised the Engineer that thought of it.

 

[Lumberg]

If you are waiting for the tranny to fail, why are you being so diligent about maintenance and putting 18 quarts of high price ATF through it?

I would do the absolute minimum necessary and drive it hard. Heck even help it out a little bit by driving it around in 2 or doing hard launches...I mean if that is really your goal.

 

[btanchors]

Lumberg,

Good question...I know it sounds contradictory. I suppose my postings in this thread have sounded a bit sarcastic and arrogant, for which I apologize....It's just that I am frustrated with this particular vehicle. Despite my frustration, I can't stand to abuse a vehicle or fail to maintain it properly. But in return I expect reasonable reliability and durability, and I am not getting it with this vehicle. To cap it all off, this vehicle replaced a 1998 Ford Windstar, whose tranny failed at 900 miles! I'm not having good luck with transmissions in minivans. I also agree with another poster's issue with so many proprietary fluids for ATF - It seems now every manufacturer has their own proprietary fluid. Why can't the API create from standards for these fluids to stop this situation? I don't understand why there can't be two or three different fluids that auto manufacturers agree to use.

 

[Tones]

btanchors,
I think what you describe is exactly what is happening. All of the Asin-Warner transmissions seem to be going to a common fluid. This started around the year 2000. It has just taken a while. I would not be surprised if the Honda Z1 either has similar characteristics, or will be changed to a similar fluid. Eventually, oil companies will get in on the action. Here is a link for you:
mazda fluid

 

[Jared H]

FWIW to you ... I've got an '03 that had the recall work(oil jet) performed on it and have no issues what so ever with the tranny. I've changed fluid once (drain and fill twice) at 22K miles and now have 31K on the vehicle. No auxillary oil cooler ... of course I don't tow anything with it either and I belive the 03 trannys may actually be different than the 02's but I am uncertain.

It is interesting to note that the oil jet goes in place where the fill plug for the tranny once was ... making it more difficult to fill ... gotta make sure you get that fluid level right before you go to the trouble of putting everything back together again.

-Cya ... JHH

 

[btanchors]

FredBear,

What you said regarding the recall addressing the heat build up issue is correct. The recall DOES address that problem. I am simply maintaining that this is only one failure mode, and it is the least common failure mode. The only reason a recall is even being performed is because this particular failure mode (disintegration of the second gear) is life threatening as it can cause complete lock up of the drive train at speed. This is why it was recalled. The recall involves inspection of the gear in question. Assuming the gear shows no sign of heat damage, the oil jet is installed. If it does show signs of damage, the transmission is replaced. But there have been many instances where there has been complete failure of the tranny after installation of the oil jet, which in turn was performed after examination of the gear showed no damage. The real problem is the transmission is a faulty design. I would get rid of this van if I could, but I can't afford to right now. I am glad I bought the extended warranty, though!

 

[ebaker]

Anyone know if the trans problems have been fixed on the 2005 Odyssey? My wife wants a new on but I'm considering a Toyota instead.

 

[Idrinkmotoroil]

I'm always surprised that Honda transmission filters are basically not serviced until the transmission is overhauled. Seems like a flaw to me. With DCX transmissions many of the reliability problems are alleviated by changing the transmission filter on a regular basis (along with the fluid) as a clogged filter will cause most of the problems.

 

[pinoy99]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fred Bear:
We have a Honda Pilot and we were not recalled, my dad’s Odyssey was recalled and the repair was done.

---

Does the Pilot or the newer(03+) Ody have a seperate transfer case sump/fluid? I suspect the Pilot has one but not the Ody.

FWIW, I changed the ATF and T-Case fluids on my wife's 03 MDX at 15k, fluids were clean, drain plug magnets have very little metallic particle/sludge attached to them as well.

 

[PandaBear]

According to tl.acurazine.com, honda replace the tranny if they see a discoloration on the 2nd gear due to overheat. If it doesn't overheat, they will simply add an oil jet to it.

 

[Geoff]

Interesting comments on the filter. They are usually a felt gauze or some kind of metallic screen. The felt filters clog up easily withing 30K miles with clutch debris.

 

[Jared H]

Honda clutch packs are designed to shed very little clutch material and thus Honda does not make the filter easily replaceable. In fact you can not replace the filter with out breaking down the transmission. The only time a Honda transmission filter will/should ever clog is if the vehicle has been driven through high water. Once enough water gets inside the transmission, it reacts with the clutch material inside the torque converter causing it to shed ... eventually ending up in the filter and essentially forcing a replacement/rebuild.

Something else of interest in Honda automatics ... Honda automatics are different from most other automatics out there. There are no sun or planetary gears. These transmission look (internally) very similar to a manual transmission. However, where you'd see synchronizers in a manual you have clutch packs in the Honda.

Another facet of inerest in all V6 equipped Honda automatics is a low hold clutch pack. If you put your Honda automatic in L1/D1, (which ever it is) ie manually select 1st gear, a second clutch pack engages doubling the normal torque holding capacity of of the transmission in 1st gear. This low hold clutch pack will never engage other wise. It can be helpful in preventing transmission slippage when pulling a heavy load in 1st. This auxilary/low hold clutch pack disengages in all other gears and is not present on any of the 4 cylinder s.

Cya ... JHH