Front end alignment

[BEKAIR]

near & dear to my heart - I realy dont want to hijack this thread BUT !! - years ago I spent a couple of months at the BEAR school in Rock Island,( I was going to sell this product) later I owned a spring shop and we did f/e work - we used an Alemite alignment "tower". Yeah I know - really dated.

I dont think much has changed over the years regarding geometry - surely the ways of measurement though.

As I recall the only wear could come from toe & camber - NOT caster, but caster would allow better steering - IE help "pull" up the road crown.

Seems to me the best thing is to have the steering wheel straight - that is the first thing people seem to notice.

Later model vehicles seem to have more "non lubed", "non adjustable" joints, but more vehicles travel over "better roads" - so mfg's say - why put too many adjustments when they are not needed?

Now we get alignment reports that say "within specs" - that are so wide a truck could drive thru them (pun intended)

My belief is - as it was years ago - that it NOT the equipment, but the interpertation of same, by the tech.

The Alemite equipment used a "spreader bar" positioned across the front of the tires - putting pressure - to compensate for wear on the f/e components. Toe was then set to "0" - as both tires "fling out" when moving taking up all wear points.

OK - I know they can now do "4" wheel alignment - but, tire wear is STILL controlled by "TOE" and "CAMBER" - steering by "CASTER".

A good teck can compensate for worn tires - I would still think I would like to have all components ON THE VEHICLE (tires, shocks, etc) BEFORE the vehicle is aligned.

Just my 2 cents - hope to hear from some alignment guys.

Barry

 

[CapriRacer]

Just food for thought:

Caster can be looked as "Camber gain due to steering". Since most tire wear occurs during cornering, then caster also affects tire wear.

 

[kevm14]

BEKAIR,

I agree on the alignment tolerance issue. The factory tolerances are usually disgustingly loose. A tech could put a car up on the rack, get the base measurements and say "she's in spec" and, oh yeah, that'll be $60 please. Give me a break. So to avoid that, I bring my own specs, that I modify, with much tighter tolerances. Or I'll wait to see what the current specs of the car are, think about what I dislike about the tracking, and have the tech modify things accordingly. Most techs are willing to work with me, and seem to find it refreshing that a customer has a cluepon about the way alignment affects tracking. Some cars are naturally "good trackers" though. In fact, I've found most FWDs are pretty decent. My Caprice, on the other hand, with an exact chassis design dating back to 1977, and a general design to 1971 or prior (coil sprung dual A-arm), is a ton more sensitive, especially with 17" wheels on it (tramline, wandering, etc). In this case, I've found that caster is my friend, and a little toe-in is also a good thing. I can also dial in and out understeer with camber, but at the expense of inner tire wear. Neat.

 

[rpn453]

quote:

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Originally posted by outrun:
An adjustable part has loosened (in which case, someone did something wrong...)

Yes and No, many of the adjustable parts come loose simply by routine driving.

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So then someone definitely did something wrong: the engineers that were unable to design the part well enough to stand up to its intended purpose!

 

[outrun]

So then someone definitely did something wrong: the engineers that were unable to design the part well enough to stand up to its intended purpose!

If you do not want adjustability replace your driveline with tank treads.

Thats the neato part of suspension tech, these parts will loosen, if they do not then you must drive a half-track or something.

(and maybe a half-track has independent front suspension capable to toe/caster/thrust angle adjustment)

Like I said I further stand on my conclusions here based on my experiance.

I call your bet, any car driven XXX miles will eventually go out of alignment specification as it as inevitable as mortality.

What will determine your sensability as an owner is to be sensible enough that when an honest mech recommends it (like when purchasing 4 new radials) that you will allow for his professional and honest discretion.

 

[Ken2]

In some cases the factory specs are way too wide. Toyota Tundras do much better with camber and toe set right in the middle of the spec and caster at the top. Just "in spec" is way too wide.

For a rear drive vehicle I prefer the "thrust alignment." That measures the exact direction of thrust from the rears and aligns the fronts to that.

I like the Hunter machines with the CAMM console. It even tells the tech where the alignment adjusters are and which way to turn them. Trying to align a Tundra/Sequioa on any other machine will turn a good tech gray.


Ken

 

[JeepZJ4.0]

I'm gonna get the alignment done in two weeks. The Sears that I went to treated me very well when I bought the tires for my mom's Toyota Avalon. They did a fine job when they installed the tires. They made sure the whole vehicle was fine. For the same price, I can get the Jeep aligned at the dealership. I didn't know the price was actually reasonable. What do you think guys?

 

[Mazatrol]

A question for outrun....or anyone else. Is there a reasonably accurate way to check rear toe....in my garage....using plump bob, machinsts square, special tool, etc. The car (74 vette) has just been aligned...everything is good on the front....the rears are good except for the toe which have too much toe in. They are equal at 5/32" per side....5/16" total. Specs are 1/8" total max. Long story...but the guy pretty much ran out of steam after swapping shims at the trailing arms several times. After driving it a little to let things settle in I tried 2 different ways of measuring toe and come up with 3/16" total each way. I can probably live with that (if correct) but am not totally confident with my tecniques. I'm not thrilled with taking it back to a shop and swapping shims is not a big problem (if needed)....just need to confirm that my 3/16" is accurate. Any ideas are appreciated.
Thanks

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mazatrol:
A question for outrun....or anyone else. Is there a reasonably accurate way to check rear toe....The car (74 vette) has just been aligned..
Thanks

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Take a look at this, it looks like good a good solid method. You should be able to get within 1/16 inch easy, 1/32 with care. Corvette wheel Alignment

 

[Mazatrol]

XS650......Excellent info.....just what I was looking for. I belong to 3 corvette forums and don't ever recall seeing this link posted.
Thankyou very much.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mazatrol:
XS650......Excellent info.....just what I was looking for. I belong to 3 corvette forums and don't ever recall seeing this link posted.
Thankyou very much.

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I think it's buried in some list of technical aticles at www.corvetteforum.net They are down now so I can't find it. There is bunch of good stuff on the list I am thinking of. I will take look tomorrow and see if I can find the list, it's bit obscure.

 

[Mazatrol]

XS650....yes ...that is the biggest of the several forums that I visit. The tech articles I think you are referring to are here.
http://www.corvettefaq.com/listing.asp?group=3
Two of the articles are similar to what you posted, but a little harder to follow. What I've done so far for a "quick" check......tape sheets of paper to the floor at the front and rear of each rear wheel....first used a plumb bob draped over the center of the tire and marked where it "touched" (front and back,both sides)then stretched a tape measure across and noted the difference. 2nd try was the same except I used a machinists square...lined it up dead center to the middle tread and marked the paper where the square touched to paper. I got "roughly" 3/16" both ways. I may try the string this weekend.
Thanks again for your help.

 

[XS650]

Mazatrol, I noticed the stringing web page is in their temp file. I downloaded it in case it goes away.

 

[tdi-rick]

quote:

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Caster can be looked as "Camber gain due to steering". Since most tire wear occurs during cornering, then caster also affects tire wear.

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Yep. We used to wind on obscene amounts of caster on certain non-ground effect race cars, at least as much as the drivers could tolerate, to wind in more negative camber as the steering was turned. Very effective.

It's interesting that we used to be able to align a four wheel independent suspension vehicle to 0.5mm with parrallel string lines, just like XS650's link, yet today you seem to need a multi thousand dollar, computerised wheel alignment machine.

Yes, it did take time to set up initially, although most cars I worked on had the 'alignment' bars made up that bolted to the pedal box and rear of the gearbox (open wheelers) to set up the string line. Accurate setup in a few minutes.

I've aligned a few road cars just the same way.
A 'smart level' (digital spirit level) becomes an accurate camber/caster gauge.

Rick.

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by tdi-rick:

quote:

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Caster can be looked as "Camber gain due to steering". Since most tire wear occurs during cornering, then caster also affects tire wear.

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Yep. We used to wind on obscene amounts of caster on certain non-ground effect race cars, at least as much as the drivers could tolerate, to wind in more negative camber as the steering was turned. Very effective.

It's interesting that we used to be able to align a four wheel independent suspension vehicle to 0.5mm with parrallel string lines, just like XS650's link, yet today you seem to need a multi thousand dollar, computerised wheel alignment machine.

Yes, it did take time to set up initially, although most cars I worked on had the 'alignment' bars made up that bolted to the pedal box and rear of the gearbox (open wheelers) to set up the string line. Accurate setup in a few minutes.

I've aligned a few road cars just the same way.
A 'smart level' (digital spirit level) becomes an accurate camber/caster gauge.

Rick.

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I've wondered the same thing. Why does it take a $20,000 machine to get an often bad alignment? I've don't rough ones with bars, strings, and machinists rulers before and had them be plenty close.

A precision machinists level and some shims and you can make a very useful tool that can be used for camber and caster. Just as long as you didn't forget your trigonometry...

 

[ted s]

I wonder why everytime i have alignment checked i always need one? maybe cause they want to get paid?

quote:

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Originally posted by outrun:
Trust me on this I know Alignments more than most people.

Anytime you get a set 2-4 radials it is more than wise to have your Alignment "checked."

One thing I know out of experianced is that ANY car driven X miles will eventually go out of alignment.

That is a truth of life just like an oil change.

In fact you car can ride perfect but the alignment can be severely out.

Second, by the time Toe or Caster wear appears its too late for a pre-emptive routine alignment service.

Third point, any respectable shop will always check your alignment geometries (toe,caster,thrust etc) and produce a pre-liminary printout vs. OEM.

If these values deviat from the OEM specs then your alignment is necessary and they do the service.

If all the specs are perfect it is NO CHARGE to have the check done.

It surprises me how 90-99% people only get alignments when the purchase tires or when its absolutely necessary like a strut or tie rod replacement.

The best way to keep your radials lasting there full mileage is this:

A)Religious rotations, 5-6k, or in my opinion there is no such thing as excessive rotations either.

B)Second every 12-15k miles have the alignment checked...or sooner if any pulling, toe or caster wear is detected.

C)A respectable shop will also give the front and rear end a good shakedown as well to make sure all the suspension-steering components are okay too.

One of my pet peeves to my customers is an Alignment.

I hope this spiel stressed how critical an Alignment check is.

It angers me how many excellent high mileage tires such as the Michelin Harmony/Agility get worn so fast due to customers not rotating or aligning there car.

What a waste of good rubber due to someone being pound foolish penny-wise.

A 59.99$ Alignment is cheap service for a 300-1,000$ radial purchase don't you think?

So in conclusion there is no excuse to have the free Alignment check done.

If it is okay and perfect to OEM spec than you have nothing to worry about $$ wise.

Sears, Goodyears and most Dealers will check it for free.

Good luck-

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[StanW]

I only go to an alignment specialty shop. When you go to them they are specialist in doing alignments and will do the best job.
Most tire dealers and car dealers can't align a car properly or diagnose specific problem the way the specialist can.