Weapons Lube Issued by Army May be Costing Lives in Iraq
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In a desert enviroment most of the problem could be solved by issueing a cheap paint brush. Each night if the weapon had not been fired they could simply shotgun it and brush any sand out ot the rifle! With the dust cover up and a condom on the end of the barrel held in place with a rubber wand you can keep a lot of big sand out but the powdery type still gets in.
Our weapon systems and training have proven supior to the comunist sourced weapons and tactics in recent Wars. I think we would all like to see the M16 replaced with something else but what is really better? We have to have accuracy, light weight, easyy to field strip and reliability. THe M16 M4 is one of the best weapons systems I have seen a nation issue. I have more issues with the caliber then with the deliver tool.
I recently read about some work on a 6.5mm round being called the 6.5 Grendel. It works in a standard AR15/M16 upper with no mechanical modifications other then feed ramp angle. It uses a 6mm PPC case necked up to a 6.5MM. You can run the 120 and 140 grain 6.5mm pojectile. It will magazine feed and gives a happy medium between the 5.56 and 7.62 in both recoil and ballistic performance. This would do an excellent job with a knocker type bullet design and also with a tungsten or steel penatrator!
Our weapon systems and training have proven supior to the comunist sourced weapons and tactics in recent Wars. I think we would all like to see the M16 replaced with something else but what is really better? We have to have accuracy, light weight, easyy to field strip and reliability. THe M16 M4 is one of the best weapons systems I have seen a nation issue. I have more issues with the caliber then with the deliver tool.
I recently read about some work on a 6.5mm round being called the 6.5 Grendel. It works in a standard AR15/M16 upper with no mechanical modifications other then feed ramp angle. It uses a 6mm PPC case necked up to a 6.5MM. You can run the 120 and 140 grain 6.5mm pojectile. It will magazine feed and gives a happy medium between the 5.56 and 7.62 in both recoil and ballistic performance. This would do an excellent job with a knocker type bullet design and also with a tungsten or steel penatrator!
The M-16 has a basic DESIGN flaw that will prevent it from being very reliable no matter what lube/cleaning frequency is being used.The gas system uses the bolt carrier as the piston to provide the necessary movement to cycle the gun. All of this dirty, gritty gas is piped through the bolt, and what leaks past the gas tube ends up inside the upper receiver leaving deposits. Leakage through the bolt past the rings craps up the firing pin and it's tunnell through the bolt face. Regular AR shooters know about the "firing pin carbon freeze". The gas system is also non adjustable to compestate for the slower friction induced carrier speed. The spent case ejector is a spring driven plunger in the bolt face subject to breakage and the usual carbon build up from repeated firing. In the middle 70's barrel gas ports were enlarged to allow more gas energy to act on the carrier, a matching increase in buffer spring provided more reliable force to fully cycle the action. A much needed improvement, but the above mentioned flaws still exist.
The smartest and most reliable small (5.56) caliber weapon I have seen is the Daewoo series rifles. The bolt carrier is operating rod driven (AK style) with a user adjustable gas system. The spent case is forceablely ejected with a frame mounted ejector post. The recoil is softened with a heavy spring in the sholder stock that adds momentive to the operating cycle depending on the gas port selection that prevents failure to eject/feed malfunctions. NEVER had a failure in 20+ years of use and is just as accurate as my match AR's. Went through 900 rounds at a big rifle match at Quanitico Marine firing range and had the only rifle that didn't malfunction. I do use Militec on all my firearms and it is the best I have tried so far. This is the rifle I will grab if the crap hits the fan.
WDP
[ December 11, 2003, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: WDP ]
The smartest and most reliable small (5.56) caliber weapon I have seen is the Daewoo series rifles. The bolt carrier is operating rod driven (AK style) with a user adjustable gas system. The spent case is forceablely ejected with a frame mounted ejector post. The recoil is softened with a heavy spring in the sholder stock that adds momentive to the operating cycle depending on the gas port selection that prevents failure to eject/feed malfunctions. NEVER had a failure in 20+ years of use and is just as accurate as my match AR's. Went through 900 rounds at a big rifle match at Quanitico Marine firing range and had the only rifle that didn't malfunction. I do use Militec on all my firearms and it is the best I have tried so far. This is the rifle I will grab if the crap hits the fan.
WDP
[ December 11, 2003, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: WDP ]
Bolt actions can fail too. Let's issue our troops Ruger #1s with Browning 1885s for the officers.
Seriously, there is no perfect weapon. Each will have its tradeoffs. Seems to me that if the M-16 were all that bad we wouldn't still be using it more than 20 years after it was introduced.
This type of lube issue is actually very interesting, and not limited to guns. I am a mountain bike fanatic. I can't imagine anything more harsh on delicate mechanisms than biking for hours in rain and mud. Good mechanisms are not overly sensitive to dirt and are well sealed/shielded, but not in a way that traps dirt or moisture.
I have tried everything from light oils like tri-flow, to heavy oils, greases, greases thinned with oil, hot-dip wax lubes, etc. I finally stumbled across Amsoil metal protect sprays (regular and HD), which are easily some of Amsoil's best products. The "regular" goes on oily but dries to a light film. It's supposedly great for guns. The HD is really amazing. It dries into a heavy, lubricating wax-like coating that is completely water proof and dirt proof. It's fantastic.
I realized I had only been destroying my parts with oil and grease all these years. Oil and grease is designed to be used in SEALED, CLEAN mechanisms. NOT exposed to moisture, corrosive contaminants, dirt, etc. Grease and oil is sticky and will actually ATTRACT these contaminants and carry it into mechanisms. Grease or oil is not appropriate for exposure to harsh or dirty environments. It can be worse than nothing.
Since trying these new dry lubes (there are some other brands as well), I do not use ANY oil or grease on exposed mechanisms, cables or chains on my bikes, tools, under-hood, etc. unless it is behind a good seal. Metal Protect HD goes on, stays on, doesn't get all over you and your clothes, doesn't suck up dirt, is totally waterproof, seals mechanisms, and when covered with mud, can just be washed off with water to continue performing.
On the topic of guns, there is a lot to be said for a Kalishnikov that you can throw in the mud, swish it off, and fire it. If you are really out in the field, away from any pampered support network, and you need a weapon that always works, who needs a gold plated trophy that can't even endure a sandstorm?
Didn't the Isreali's even develop a Kalishnokov-like gun that was even better and more durable?
YES, I am bringing a 14 year old post back from the dead. Sorry. I usually hate necro-posts, but I somehow stumbled on this post, and I HAD to bring it back.
Look at all the misinformation just SPEWED about the AR platform rifles 14 years ago, near the beginning of the Iraq/Afghanistan wars. So much misinformation, its almost like I heard from a guy, who heard from his uncle, who heard from her daughters fathers minister, that the AR15 is (fill in the blank)
Obviously, AR rifles were a lot less prominent and available back then. Nowadays, every Tom, Jerry, and Larry owns one of these things, to include a 23 year old kid in Oklahoma who just defended his home with one this week, to the tune of three dead home invaders.
Pretty interesting to read this "time capsule" and compare thoughts back then to now.
Look at all the misinformation just SPEWED about the AR platform rifles 14 years ago, near the beginning of the Iraq/Afghanistan wars. So much misinformation, its almost like I heard from a guy, who heard from his uncle, who heard from her daughters fathers minister, that the AR15 is (fill in the blank)
Obviously, AR rifles were a lot less prominent and available back then. Nowadays, every Tom, Jerry, and Larry owns one of these things, to include a 23 year old kid in Oklahoma who just defended his home with one this week, to the tune of three dead home invaders.
Pretty interesting to read this "time capsule" and compare thoughts back then to now.
I'm guessing these guys all feel the same way today.
At least some things don't change: we'll never agree on a lube.
Originally Posted By: WDP
The M-16 has a basic DESIGN flaw that will prevent it from being very reliable no matter what lube/cleaning frequency is being used.The gas system uses the bolt carrier as the piston to provide the necessary movement to cycle the gun. All of this dirty, gritty gas is piped through the bolt, and what leaks past the gas tube ends up inside the upper receiver leaving deposits. Leakage through the bolt past the rings [censored] up the firing pin and it's tunnel through the bolt face. Regular AR shooters know about the "firing pin carbon freeze". The gas system is also non adjustable to compensate for the slower friction induced carrier speed. The spent case ejector is a spring driven plunger in the bolt face subject to breakage and the usual carbon build up from repeated firing. In the middle 70's barrel gas ports were enlarged to allow more gas energy to act on the carrier, a matching increase in buffer spring provided more reliable force to fully cycle the action. A much needed improvement, but the above mentioned flaws still exist.
The smartest and most reliable small (5.56) caliber weapon I have seen is the Daewoo series rifles. The bolt carrier is operating rod driven (AK style) with a user adjustable gas system. The spent case is forcibly ejected with a frame mounted ejector post. The recoil is softened with a heavy spring in the sholder stock that adds momentive to the operating cycle depending on the gas port selection that prevents failure to eject/feed malfunctions. NEVER had a failure in 20+ years of use and is just as accurate as my match AR's. Went through 900 rounds at a big rifle match at Quanitico Marine firing range and had the only rifle that didn't malfunction. I do use Militec on all my firearms and it is the best I have tried so far. This is the rifle I will grab if the [censored] hits the fan.
WDP
[ December 11, 2003, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: WDP ]
I was wondering how long it was going to take before someone mentioned the fact that one of the main issues with the M16 is direct gas impingement system. This was not a big issue in simi auto mode but in full auto the gun will overheat after only a few mags! Some of the piston based AR's are much better like the HK516.
The ammo is great for carry as you can carry more but as was found in Afghanistan where many shots were taken long range it lacks bullet weight and knockdown power.
I think the US military could use a new black rifle but what? The other issue is should they switch to a more effective ammo? It all comes down to $ it is huge money to switch to a new ammo and all new rifles.
The M-16 has a basic DESIGN flaw that will prevent it from being very reliable no matter what lube/cleaning frequency is being used.The gas system uses the bolt carrier as the piston to provide the necessary movement to cycle the gun. All of this dirty, gritty gas is piped through the bolt, and what leaks past the gas tube ends up inside the upper receiver leaving deposits. Leakage through the bolt past the rings [censored] up the firing pin and it's tunnel through the bolt face. Regular AR shooters know about the "firing pin carbon freeze". The gas system is also non adjustable to compensate for the slower friction induced carrier speed. The spent case ejector is a spring driven plunger in the bolt face subject to breakage and the usual carbon build up from repeated firing. In the middle 70's barrel gas ports were enlarged to allow more gas energy to act on the carrier, a matching increase in buffer spring provided more reliable force to fully cycle the action. A much needed improvement, but the above mentioned flaws still exist.
The smartest and most reliable small (5.56) caliber weapon I have seen is the Daewoo series rifles. The bolt carrier is operating rod driven (AK style) with a user adjustable gas system. The spent case is forcibly ejected with a frame mounted ejector post. The recoil is softened with a heavy spring in the sholder stock that adds momentive to the operating cycle depending on the gas port selection that prevents failure to eject/feed malfunctions. NEVER had a failure in 20+ years of use and is just as accurate as my match AR's. Went through 900 rounds at a big rifle match at Quanitico Marine firing range and had the only rifle that didn't malfunction. I do use Militec on all my firearms and it is the best I have tried so far. This is the rifle I will grab if the [censored] hits the fan.
WDP
[ December 11, 2003, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: WDP ]
I was wondering how long it was going to take before someone mentioned the fact that one of the main issues with the M16 is direct gas impingement system. This was not a big issue in simi auto mode but in full auto the gun will overheat after only a few mags! Some of the piston based AR's are much better like the HK516.
The ammo is great for carry as you can carry more but as was found in Afghanistan where many shots were taken long range it lacks bullet weight and knockdown power.
I think the US military could use a new black rifle but what? The other issue is should they switch to a more effective ammo? It all comes down to $ it is huge money to switch to a new ammo and all new rifles.
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JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
The ammo is great for carry as you can carry more but as was found in Afghanistan where many shots were taken long range it lacks bullet weight and knockdown power.
I think the US military could use a new black rifle but what? The other issue is should they switch to a more effective ammo? It all comes down to $ it is huge money to switch to a new ammo and all new rifles.
There's the FN SCAR-H, some reworked M14 rifles, etc.
It doesn't look like anything such as the SCAR, ACR, etc is anywhere near as cost effective as the $641 or so we pay for a copy of the M4. Add on top of at the mass of the ammo, the amount one can have installed in a practical size magazine, or elsewhere in reserve, and it is tough to make a case straight up. Is 7.62 the right choice? Some variant on it? 6.5/6.8? Can they be done more reliably or nearly as cost effectively?
To get back on topic, the existing M4/M16 options do seem to be more prone to stoppages than a variety of options from HK, FNH, Magpul/Freedom, etc. Question becomes if it is reasonable for an engineering solution to improve on that while maintaining the price point currently enjoyed. Different tool for different engagement is probably prudent regardless, but ai wonder if in heavy production the SCAR L and H family can see cost efficiencies from common parts that get it near the price FN is taking for an M4...
The ammo is great for carry as you can carry more but as was found in Afghanistan where many shots were taken long range it lacks bullet weight and knockdown power.
I think the US military could use a new black rifle but what? The other issue is should they switch to a more effective ammo? It all comes down to $ it is huge money to switch to a new ammo and all new rifles.
There's the FN SCAR-H, some reworked M14 rifles, etc.
It doesn't look like anything such as the SCAR, ACR, etc is anywhere near as cost effective as the $641 or so we pay for a copy of the M4. Add on top of at the mass of the ammo, the amount one can have installed in a practical size magazine, or elsewhere in reserve, and it is tough to make a case straight up. Is 7.62 the right choice? Some variant on it? 6.5/6.8? Can they be done more reliably or nearly as cost effectively?
To get back on topic, the existing M4/M16 options do seem to be more prone to stoppages than a variety of options from HK, FNH, Magpul/Freedom, etc. Question becomes if it is reasonable for an engineering solution to improve on that while maintaining the price point currently enjoyed. Different tool for different engagement is probably prudent regardless, but ai wonder if in heavy production the SCAR L and H family can see cost efficiencies from common parts that get it near the price FN is taking for an M4...
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
Originally Posted By: WDP
The M-16 has a basic DESIGN flaw that will prevent it from being very reliable no matter what lube/cleaning frequency is being used.The gas system uses the bolt carrier as the piston to provide the necessary movement to cycle the gun. All of this dirty, gritty gas is piped through the bolt, and what leaks past the gas tube ends up inside the upper receiver leaving deposits. Leakage through the bolt past the rings [censored] up the firing pin and it's tunnel through the bolt face. Regular AR shooters know about the "firing pin carbon freeze". The gas system is also non adjustable to compensate for the slower friction induced carrier speed. The spent case ejector is a spring driven plunger in the bolt face subject to breakage and the usual carbon build up from repeated firing. In the middle 70's barrel gas ports were enlarged to allow more gas energy to act on the carrier, a matching increase in buffer spring provided more reliable force to fully cycle the action. A much needed improvement, but the above mentioned flaws still exist.
The smartest and most reliable small (5.56) caliber weapon I have seen is the Daewoo series rifles. The bolt carrier is operating rod driven (AK style) with a user adjustable gas system. The spent case is forcibly ejected with a frame mounted ejector post. The recoil is softened with a heavy spring in the sholder stock that adds momentive to the operating cycle depending on the gas port selection that prevents failure to eject/feed malfunctions. NEVER had a failure in 20+ years of use and is just as accurate as my match AR's. Went through 900 rounds at a big rifle match at Quanitico Marine firing range and had the only rifle that didn't malfunction. I do use Militec on all my firearms and it is the best I have tried so far. This is the rifle I will grab if the [censored] hits the fan.
WDP
[ December 11, 2003, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: WDP ]
I was wondering how long it was going to take before someone mentioned the fact that one of the main issues with the M16 is direct gas impingement system. This was not a big issue in simi auto mode but in full auto the gun will overheat after only a few mags! Some of the piston based AR's are much better like the HK516.
I think you're wrong about an M16 overheating after "a few mags". There was one youtube torture test of a direct impingement AR (with a full auto lower) that ran about 900 rounds before the barrel failed. The mix of mags ranged from (lots of) 30s to some 50s and one or two 100 round mags.
Originally Posted By: WDP
The M-16 has a basic DESIGN flaw that will prevent it from being very reliable no matter what lube/cleaning frequency is being used.The gas system uses the bolt carrier as the piston to provide the necessary movement to cycle the gun. All of this dirty, gritty gas is piped through the bolt, and what leaks past the gas tube ends up inside the upper receiver leaving deposits. Leakage through the bolt past the rings [censored] up the firing pin and it's tunnel through the bolt face. Regular AR shooters know about the "firing pin carbon freeze". The gas system is also non adjustable to compensate for the slower friction induced carrier speed. The spent case ejector is a spring driven plunger in the bolt face subject to breakage and the usual carbon build up from repeated firing. In the middle 70's barrel gas ports were enlarged to allow more gas energy to act on the carrier, a matching increase in buffer spring provided more reliable force to fully cycle the action. A much needed improvement, but the above mentioned flaws still exist.
The smartest and most reliable small (5.56) caliber weapon I have seen is the Daewoo series rifles. The bolt carrier is operating rod driven (AK style) with a user adjustable gas system. The spent case is forcibly ejected with a frame mounted ejector post. The recoil is softened with a heavy spring in the sholder stock that adds momentive to the operating cycle depending on the gas port selection that prevents failure to eject/feed malfunctions. NEVER had a failure in 20+ years of use and is just as accurate as my match AR's. Went through 900 rounds at a big rifle match at Quanitico Marine firing range and had the only rifle that didn't malfunction. I do use Militec on all my firearms and it is the best I have tried so far. This is the rifle I will grab if the [censored] hits the fan.
WDP
[ December 11, 2003, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: WDP ]
I was wondering how long it was going to take before someone mentioned the fact that one of the main issues with the M16 is direct gas impingement system. This was not a big issue in simi auto mode but in full auto the gun will overheat after only a few mags! Some of the piston based AR's are much better like the HK516.
I think you're wrong about an M16 overheating after "a few mags". There was one youtube torture test of a direct impingement AR (with a full auto lower) that ran about 900 rounds before the barrel failed. The mix of mags ranged from (lots of) 30s to some 50s and one or two 100 round mags.
It's safe to say they do get much hotter, much faster than piston AR's do. Another big problem with direct impingement AR-15's, is they can blow up if they are fired with water in the gas system. This is the main reason the Navy Seals went to the H&K piston operated AR-15. It can be completely submerged, pulled from the water, and be immediately fired without incident.
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
YES, I am bringing a 14 year old post back from the dead. Sorry. I usually hate necro-posts, but I somehow stumbled on this post, and I HAD to bring it back.
Look at all the misinformation just SPEWED about the AR platform rifles 14 years ago, near the beginning of the Iraq/Afghanistan wars. So much misinformation, its almost like I heard from a guy, who heard from his uncle, who heard from her daughters fathers minister, that the AR15 is (fill in the blank)
Obviously, AR rifles were a lot less prominent and available back then. Nowadays, every Tom, Jerry, and Larry owns one of these things, to include a 23 year old kid in Oklahoma who just defended his home with one this week, to the tune of three dead home invaders.
Pretty interesting to read this "time capsule" and compare thoughts back then to now.
That incident was just miles away from my house. Honestly, nowdays you see 3-4 invaders in a lot of home invasions. The AR just makes so much sense.
YES, I am bringing a 14 year old post back from the dead. Sorry. I usually hate necro-posts, but I somehow stumbled on this post, and I HAD to bring it back.
Look at all the misinformation just SPEWED about the AR platform rifles 14 years ago, near the beginning of the Iraq/Afghanistan wars. So much misinformation, its almost like I heard from a guy, who heard from his uncle, who heard from her daughters fathers minister, that the AR15 is (fill in the blank)
Obviously, AR rifles were a lot less prominent and available back then. Nowadays, every Tom, Jerry, and Larry owns one of these things, to include a 23 year old kid in Oklahoma who just defended his home with one this week, to the tune of three dead home invaders.
Pretty interesting to read this "time capsule" and compare thoughts back then to now.
That incident was just miles away from my house. Honestly, nowdays you see 3-4 invaders in a lot of home invasions. The AR just makes so much sense.
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Oh I definitely won't argue against that... just saying they'll hold up for much longer than "a few mags" under sustained auto fire.
Here is a video of a direct impingement gun running hard on full auto. You can see the barrel ultimately failed. It was a stainless with nitriding treatment, which is not as tough as the 4150 steel barrels used on issued guns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSizVpfqFtw
Here are some similar "meltdown" tests of piston guns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Id_soYaAm8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfZcEjdvx8c
Oh I definitely won't argue against that... just saying they'll hold up for much longer than "a few mags" under sustained auto fire.
Here is a video of a direct impingement gun running hard on full auto. You can see the barrel ultimately failed. It was a stainless with nitriding treatment, which is not as tough as the 4150 steel barrels used on issued guns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSizVpfqFtw
Here are some similar "meltdown" tests of piston guns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Id_soYaAm8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfZcEjdvx8c
A lot of these "destruction tests" have little to no real world value. Simply because there is zero reason to run a weapon like that. Even in a combat situation, no one would blow through all of their ammunition that fast, spraying all over God's creation with non stop full auto fire. It's a bit like running an engine in neutral, with a brick on the accelerator to "test" high speed endurance.
Originally Posted By: billt460
A lot of these "destruction tests" have little to no real world value. Simply because there is zero reason to run a weapon like that. Even in a combat situation, no one would blow through all of their ammunition that fast, spraying all over God's creation with non stop full auto fire. It's a bit like running an engine in neutral, with a brick on the accelerator to "test" high speed endurance.
The point of these is not to duplicate what happens in the real world, but instead to show the limits of the design and materials. And they should put people at ease who hear their from internet keyboard warriors that their DI AR-15 will break down after a handful of quick mag dumps.
A lot of these "destruction tests" have little to no real world value. Simply because there is zero reason to run a weapon like that. Even in a combat situation, no one would blow through all of their ammunition that fast, spraying all over God's creation with non stop full auto fire. It's a bit like running an engine in neutral, with a brick on the accelerator to "test" high speed endurance.
The point of these is not to duplicate what happens in the real world, but instead to show the limits of the design and materials. And they should put people at ease who hear their from internet keyboard warriors that their DI AR-15 will break down after a handful of quick mag dumps.
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Oh I definitely won't argue against that... just saying they'll hold up for much longer than "a few mags" under sustained auto fire.
Here is a video of a direct impingement gun running hard on full auto. You can see the barrel ultimately failed. It was a stainless with nitriding treatment, which is not as tough as the 4150 steel barrels used on issued guns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSizVpfqFtw
Here are some similar "meltdown" tests of piston guns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Id_soYaAm8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfZcEjdvx8c
The first video link is the one I was thinking of.
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Oh I definitely won't argue against that... just saying they'll hold up for much longer than "a few mags" under sustained auto fire.
Here is a video of a direct impingement gun running hard on full auto. You can see the barrel ultimately failed. It was a stainless with nitriding treatment, which is not as tough as the 4150 steel barrels used on issued guns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSizVpfqFtw
Here are some similar "meltdown" tests of piston guns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Id_soYaAm8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfZcEjdvx8c
The first video link is the one I was thinking of.
Originally Posted By: billt460
It's safe to say they do get much hotter, much faster than piston AR's do. Another big problem with direct impingement AR-15's, is they can blow up if they are fired with water in the gas system. This is the main reason the Navy Seals went to the H&K piston operated AR-15. It can be completely submerged, pulled from the water, and be immediately fired without incident.
Oh lord. This thread is still full of [censored].
1) The bolt on a Stoner gas system AR gets around 20-30*F hotter than a Piston (HK416) AR after several mags of full-auto fire. BOTH are still cool enough that they won't boil water off, much less oil of any nature.
2) The reason the HK416 barrel passed the burst tests while the Colt M4 didn't is that the HK416 barrel is an inch across under the handguards, nearly. Piston/Gas Tube has ZIP to do with it. IT made it a heavy mother and that's why the MK18 was preferred by some guys.
It's safe to say they do get much hotter, much faster than piston AR's do. Another big problem with direct impingement AR-15's, is they can blow up if they are fired with water in the gas system. This is the main reason the Navy Seals went to the H&K piston operated AR-15. It can be completely submerged, pulled from the water, and be immediately fired without incident.
Oh lord. This thread is still full of [censored].
1) The bolt on a Stoner gas system AR gets around 20-30*F hotter than a Piston (HK416) AR after several mags of full-auto fire. BOTH are still cool enough that they won't boil water off, much less oil of any nature.
2) The reason the HK416 barrel passed the burst tests while the Colt M4 didn't is that the HK416 barrel is an inch across under the handguards, nearly. Piston/Gas Tube has ZIP to do with it. IT made it a heavy mother and that's why the MK18 was preferred by some guys.
Originally Posted By: billt460
A lot of these "destruction tests" have little to no real world value. Simply because there is zero reason to run a weapon like that. Even in a combat situation, no one would blow through all of their ammunition that fast, spraying all over God's creation with non stop full auto fire. It's a bit like running an engine in neutral, with a brick on the accelerator to "test" high speed endurance.
The Battle of Wanat failures led to a few videos from Colt...
A lot of these "destruction tests" have little to no real world value. Simply because there is zero reason to run a weapon like that. Even in a combat situation, no one would blow through all of their ammunition that fast, spraying all over God's creation with non stop full auto fire. It's a bit like running an engine in neutral, with a brick on the accelerator to "test" high speed endurance.
The Battle of Wanat failures led to a few videos from Colt...
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