Oil for flat tappet racing engine...

[wileyE]

"This is from Amsoil's FAQ in the pref. customer section.

. What oil do you recommend in a sprint car running a 358-hp Chevy engine on alcohol?

A. The AMSOIL Series 2000 20W-50 Synthetic Racing Oil or SAE 60 (AHR) Synthetic Heavy Racing Oil are recommended for high performance racing applications



Alky and methanol usually do require a thicker oil because they dilute the oil quickly. So I'd say amsoil tech reply is based more on those being the too thickest oils they carry vs. being the best for a racing engine across the board. We ran castol sae70 in our fuel motors fwiw.

 

[Dan4510]

A new product from Hughes Engines who sells a lot of flat tappet cams:

web site www.hughesengines.com

Save Those Flat Tappet Cam Lobes!
Over the past 10 years or so all cam manufacturers have seen an increase in flat tappet cam failures, particularly in the high performance arena. We have spent close to a year researching oils and additives to try and find a product that could eliminate this problem. We have found it! Hughes Engines Extreme Pressure Lubricant is a state of the art additive package that is compatible with standard (mineral based) oils or synthetics. To complement this highly specialized additive package a proven frictional modifier, Micron Moly® is further blended into the oil treatment. Micron Moly® is a liquid soluble type of moly that plates to the metal surfaces of the engine. Once plated, the moly forms a long lasting lubricant film which prevents the metal surfaces from coming into contact with each other. By preventing metal to metal contact, damaging frictional wear is eliminated, which leads to less downtime and longer equipment life. This additive should be used with all flat tappet camshafts. We suggest using this with your break-in oil and at every oil change. One pint will treat up to 5 quarts of oil.
Order in cases of 12 pints for only $6.99 a pint. Case lot purchases must be made by phone. Be sure and ask for the case price!

 

[thwwx]

Just use a good motocycle oil, those oils are made for similar cams. Maxima is good, their ZDDP levels are way high in ester/polyolester base oil.

 

[Francis]

Well I have been watching this topic with interest.

Now what I can not understand is the massive gap between what you guy's in the States are running in Push Rod V8's and what us Australians have and are running.

Over the last 5 years I have tried to uncover this mystery of light weight vs. heavy and Mineral vs. Syn, and I'm still confused!

Lets get to the weight issue first:

Firstly our major racing category is the V8 Supercars. Simular to Nascars, but our tracks are not oval shaped.

Here is a typical engine:

5 Litre Small Block Ford V8 with SVO Motorsport Head and a 302 Ford Motorsport Siamese Bore Block with electronic fuel injection by Motec Engine Management limited to 7500rpm (category maximum) and 10:1 compression ratio and Control 98 octane unleaded fuel.
Estimated Power: Approx 640HP at 7500rpm and 460F/lbs torque at 5600rpm

Top Speed: 300 kph (186 mph) 0 to 100 in 3.4 seconds

http://www.tripleeight.com.au/

I have been lucky enough to speak with several chef engineers of various teams, and to my surprise the oils most teams are using are mineral 25w 50. I have a letter from one Team owner that said " We have tried several leading syn oils, but don't get the same valve train life as with minerals. All out testing has proven that with Push rod technology, low revs (7500) and two valves per cylinder, these engines benefit from mineral oils". One team known for outstanding reliability uses a 25w 60 mineral oil, and talk on track is that there camshafts and valve train come out like brand new.

I have also spoken to guy's at CROWER, CRANE, COMP CAMS, YELLA TERRA, to list a few. Funny thing is that all these guy's are listing Mineral 20w 50 based oils for these style of engines.

I have also spoke with head tech's from Castrol, Shell, Valvoline, and I have also been told the same. At least 20w 50's and stick with Mineral oils for V8 engines.

What I just can't get my head around is how you guy's are really hammering Syn oils and ultra light weight oils in Big, Old Tuff V8 style engines.

I know typically Australia is a bit hotter, 77 deg F on a low average, but it' not to justify the massive gap in oil recommendations.

I know with the current issue of damaging Flat Tappet cams, companies like Castrol are pushing hard there Edge 25w 50 Mineral oil just for that very reason. Claming it's purpose designed for V8 Street and racing use engines with radical cam profiles.

QUOTE CASTROL : Edge 25w 50. High Performance mineral based oil recommended for modified engines, including push-rod technology street machines and big bore competition engines.

Lets use a 86 350 Chev Camero. Check any Australian website and you will get told to run a 20w 50 or 25w 50, some will even say a 20w 60 and while your there ask any oil company here and they will stress to only use Mineral oils as Syn's don't tend to provide these engines with the best style of protection.

But ask that question here and you will get all sorts of things like 5w 30's and so on.

Now I don't know, so it's not a case of we right and your wrong, at all, but I am really trying hard to find how both ends of the scale can be right?

I would really love to know what actual oils the Nascars are using, because if major companies like Crower and Comp Cams are pushing quality, 20w 50 mineral based oils then sponsorship aside I'm guessing it would be pretty close to our V8 Supercars.

 

[MGBV8ROADSTER]

Francis

Good info

I checked Penrite Australia and they indicate SIN 15 is used a 15W40 G3,4,5 oil. The 25W60 is a G2,4,5 oil. Mobil also sponsor so I assume a Synth.

Maybe worth contacting Penrite for their view.

 

[Francis]

Penrite are just known as the heavy weight alternative. It's Australia's most popular performance product by far. They for years have been pushing and pushing 10w 50's in place of 10 40w's, 15w 60's in place of 15w 50's and 20w 60's in place of 20w 50's. They have long pushed the fact the thinner oils are only by recomendation of EPA pressure, not the best interst of engines. They have also stood firm until last year on Performance Mineral oils only. They have said that they are now pushing Syn products because people kept asking, because of all the other oil companies marketing towards them. So they started making, but there front running products are still all the HPR range, which are slightly heaver mineral based performance oils.

But they also took it a bit to far a few years back, and they were telling everyone to run really heavy stuff in anything that had a V8, claiming these bigger engines needed heavy oil. A view that slightly turned me off. I'm a believer of moderate weight oils, like a 20w 50 or even 60w in racing, but they were telling guy's with re-built Ford and Chevy V8's to run 25w 70's. I kid you not. Ask anyone that's been around the industry for more then 5 years in Australia and they will tell you them same story. Go to the site and do a "oil recommendation" on an older V8 Ford or Chevy, see what comes up.

www.penrite.com.au

 

[tdi-rick]

and those that used Penrite in racing went elsewhere as it foamed too much and cost waaay too much HP.

I really don't understand this obsession with mineral oils mate. It's the ADDITIVE Package that protects the lobes and lifters, IF THEY HAVE BEEN PROPERLY MACHINED FOR TAPER (lobe) AND RADIUS (lifter) AND PROPERLY RUN IN.
I would take RL, RP or M1 R (if it was available here) over Edge 25W-50 any day. I ran the then GP50 (Edge 25W-50) on the dyno 13 years ago and wasn't impressed. OK, things have changed a lot since then, but there were better mineral racing oils then, like Pennzoil's race oils and BP Corse 30 and Corse 50.
FWIW, I ran M1 5W/15w-50 and BP 5W-40 Visco 5000 in a fairly warm 351C for years very successfully.

When I was racing Formula Ford and building engines (here he goes again everyone moans) a control cam was introduced, ground and cam doctored by MI in Melbourne. These engines spin to over 7000RPM with a single (mandated) valve spring, which is a big compromise compared to using dual springs.
Not long after, most nearly everyone started to have lifter failures, regardless of oil used. If there was a slight mis match between lifter radius and lobe taper, lifters wouldn't rotate, or not rotate adequately resulting in immediate failure, particularly if not run in adequately. We actually built a cam run in rig so that we could ensure this was all ok before firing up a newly built engine and then running in the cam. We also rejected lots of lifters (insufficient radius) before installation. We also never had a cam related failure ever using oils ranging from Neo 0W-5 (which is what I ran) through Castrol SLX to BP Visco 5000. Prior to this BP Corse 30 was the gun oil, but HP, torque, engine wear and ability to handle higher oil temps was better with the synthetics. Corse 30 fell over dramatically at around 105-110*C, which is easy to acheve, so keeping it cool was an issue. The only changes when running the synthetics, particularly with the 0W-5 was finer bore finishes, plateu honing and dramatically tighten up of bearing clearances, all of which are pretty basic when using a lighter oil.

My $0.02.

 

[sootyoil]

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any Amsoil product will
test better than M1 oil including the cheap 5w30 amsoil I have now

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WRONG. Amsoil will not outperform any M1 product.

Amsoil is fine for racing, but I think there are better choices for certain engines. The brands I listed, are more performance oriented. Ask Amsoil tech services what oil they recommend for racing on the track. They will tell you S2k 20W-50.

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so your saying Mobil1 groupIII base oil outperforms PAO based lubricants? could you guide me to the link with that testing?

 

[Francis]

Yeah Well I cant understand why there is this mineral vs Syn issue either. All I can add is that in 90odd% of the guy's I spoke with, like Comp, Crower, Crane, Crow they all said go the mineral.

This is from Crowers website: Crower does not recommend the use of synthetic motor oils in any racing applications, particularly hydraulic and flat tappet camshafts. The minimum gains in horsepower are offset by the excessive wear to cam and lifter surfaces.

 

[sootyoil]

Quote:

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Yeah Well I cant understand why there is this mineral vs Syn issue either. All I can add is that in 90odd% of the guy's I spoke with, like Comp, Crower, Crane, Crow they all said go the mineral.

This is from Crowers website: Crower does not recommend the use of synthetic motor oils in any racing applications, particularly hydraulic and flat tappet camshafts. The minimum gains in horsepower are offset by the excessive wear to cam and lifter surfaces.

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Job Security

 

[Ferndog]

If the engine has flat tappet, sliding followers, the cam lobe/tappet interface should NOT see any impact due to oil viscosity. In this interface, the high spring pressures and small area of contact are stong enough to squeeze the oil out of the way. Only the additive chemistry can protect. (Roller followers do get some help from viscosity.)

In addition to spring pressure, consider the cam profile and the metallurgy of the hardware. To throw in a newer wrinkle, coatings on tappets can impact which chemistry works best.

The zinc-based chemistries have been used for years to protect valve trains and cylinder walls at TDC and BDC. Moly is typically a friction modifier.

Today's GF-4 oils indirectly limit the amount of zinc-based antiwear additives. Depending on the hardware issues above, you may want to consider a diesel engine oil if that oil has more wear protection. Or you can use a true racing oil but make sure the wear protection level is high and not just a regular engine oil with the word "racing" on the label.

 

[tdi-rick]

thanks Ferndog, reiterates what a few of us have alrady said, and has more credibility coming from the formulators/blenders position.

 

[Lonnie]

Are these problems just lousy lifters? Is it such a reach to expect someone to pour the oil and additives needed for such an application? Do the cam manufacturers make lifters, too?

 

[John R]

The problem is with the lifters/tappets not the lack of ZDDP. It's manufacturing issue. This post below was written by someone who spent 12 years with Speed Pro/Federal-Mogul on a forum that has a lot of industry professionals.

"Good timing on this. Who is your current supplier?

The lifter question has been a hot topic here on and off for quite a while. I (and others) had taken to seeking out OE suppliers on them due to the rampant quality issues and cam failures everybody had been experiencing. I think most folks have come to the conclusion that there are a host of reasons that all came together at the same time to bring the issue to the forefront.

One of those threads actually led to my having the owner of HyLift call me on the phone to discuss the situation - - just in case you were thinking that industry folks don't pay attention to these forums! What he told me was interesting, pertains to the issue at hand, and will definitely change my personal lifter purchasing habits in the near future.

In a nutshell, he purchased the remaining assets of the HyLift company after prior management ran it into the ground. After a couple years of hard work trying to resurrect the old plant - he decided to start over with a brand new manufacturing facility in Michigan. Since they've reopened, he noted that he has many of the original HyLift employees back on staff, has contracted with the original casting supplier, and is making the product to meet or exceed the quality of the old parts. He invited me to visit the plant (something I'd really like to do at some point - and an indication of his obvious pride in the product and facility).

In my eyes this is effectively the light at the end of the "lifter tunnel" and as somebody who sells a low cost house brand of those "old school" flat tappet cams for street cars, I will very likely be moving to HyLift as my future lifter supplier."

 

[tdi-rick]

Lonnie and John R, please read my third last post above, (dated Oct 31) looks like we are singing from the same song sheet.

 

[Francis]

I'm wondering if anyone has noticed any bad results with Flat Tappet cams with Redline oils?

 

[gtx510]

www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/oil_summary.html
flat-tappet cams like HDEO's

 

[63Avanti]

Could you turn that bottle around so we can see the API seal?

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A good diesel oil should fit the bill.

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[1999nick]

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Could you turn that bottle around so we can see the API seal?

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A good diesel oil should fit the bill.

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That's right, let us see the API seal. I understand that the latest formulation of Rotella 15W40 is now "SM", and they expect to have the Rotella 5W40 synthetic reformulated before the end of 2007.

 

[63Avanti]

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