Have just been sent 24 qts of Joe Gibbs racing oil to test and sample for them, any used the breakin and 10w-30 oils? Any one done a teardown after using? Experience?
Thx Rod
Thx Rod
Joe Gibbs Racing oil - any exp
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i called joe gibbs oil comapny and they don't make a street oil...none of their oils have detergents in them....
1 What is a VOA and
2 why do you need detergent in a basically race engine?
3 why do you need detergent in a dry sump motor
Not being a smart *** I just want to know.
2 why do you need detergent in a basically race engine?
3 why do you need detergent in a dry sump motor
Not being a smart *** I just want to know.
though that Lubrizol make the oil?
bruce
bruce
detergent not needed in a race oil or not much that is changed out every race no need to suspend/neutralize sludge which is not formed that fast.
VOA is a virgin oil analysis to "see" what and how much additve it has.
looks to me like the BR breakin oil has 3,000 or so ppm ZN.
the Race oil has based on the MSDS sheet and yes LZ makes it.
bruce
VOA is a virgin oil analysis to "see" what and how much additve it has.
looks to me like the BR breakin oil has 3,000 or so ppm ZN.
the Race oil has based on the MSDS sheet and yes LZ makes it.
bruce
Car is also run on street and I had hoped that running a 3 gallon oil tank would allow me to go at least 5k miles b4 changing. The system has 3 filters an oil cooler and a tank heater for startup.
Is detergent still an important thing under these circumstances? As I said the car will always be run till hot. The block was just rebuilt. I am running Evans coolant so I should have no localized hot spots to cook the oil. I know very little about lubrication and have the option of testing the oil on a pure track car where oil life is not a huge factor. I also run Xylene in the fuel which tends to clean the engine of deposits and since you always have some blowby on a 30lbs boosted car then I kind of thought it would help with sludge altho it would cause earlier than normal oil changes. I always have the option of German Castrol syntec which is proven. Are you guys of the opinion that I would be making a mistake in using/testing this?
Thanks for any explainations or advice. I have about 35k in this engine so naturally I dont need stupid decisions to ruin what is a remarkable engine w/6.5 hp per CI.
Rod
Is detergent still an important thing under these circumstances? As I said the car will always be run till hot. The block was just rebuilt. I am running Evans coolant so I should have no localized hot spots to cook the oil. I know very little about lubrication and have the option of testing the oil on a pure track car where oil life is not a huge factor. I also run Xylene in the fuel which tends to clean the engine of deposits and since you always have some blowby on a 30lbs boosted car then I kind of thought it would help with sludge altho it would cause earlier than normal oil changes. I always have the option of German Castrol syntec which is proven. Are you guys of the opinion that I would be making a mistake in using/testing this?
Thanks for any explainations or advice. I have about 35k in this engine so naturally I dont need stupid decisions to ruin what is a remarkable engine w/6.5 hp per CI.
Rod
And the car and engine is what???
Rod, I don't see how this oil would trash your engine. I am sure Joe Gibbs is very interested in keeping a good name and has enlisted you to improve that.
I would do a VOA and a UOA...(virgin and used) analysis on both the break-in oil and the regular race oil. Five thousand miles should be a piece of cake with your oil capacity and the quality of the oil. With 35K into the engine you might want to do a UOA midstream to ease the mind.
6.5 horses per Cube is unreal....great job. I am sure the data you provide Joe Gibbs with will help to further tune the oils and provide you with an additional sponser...hope this works out for you. Good-Luck...LCM
I would do a VOA and a UOA...(virgin and used) analysis on both the break-in oil and the regular race oil. Five thousand miles should be a piece of cake with your oil capacity and the quality of the oil. With 35K into the engine you might want to do a UOA midstream to ease the mind.
6.5 horses per Cube is unreal....great job. I am sure the data you provide Joe Gibbs with will help to further tune the oils and provide you with an additional sponser...hope this works out for you. Good-Luck...LCM
Car is an Audi A4 with a 2 litre tall block VW forged crank block and the 1.8t 5 valve head. We cut the block to fit billet main caps, tied the mains into a custom C&C'd block girdle and fitted a stiff dry pump pan and a 3 stage scavenge pump. The block is fitted w/oil sprayers for pistons, Pauter rods, very custom JE pistons for hi boost with the ring lands lowered and some special gudgeon pins. Crank and rotating mass were dynamically balanced and micropolished, full compliment of Mahle friction coatings. We were extremely anal on assy. tolerences and had to do 3 sets of pistons before we finalized, 8:1 compression ratio. We did 5 dry assys and checked tolerences and made changes before fully satisfied and did final assy. Did a lot of head work to make sure no edges were left to create hot spots to start det., and worked valve stems and guides and hogged out and equalized intake and exh.ports. I am using a Garrett GT30r turbo, 3.5" downpipe and exhaust, no cat. Dyno #'s showed 420AWHP and 411 lb.ft on pump gas, these #'s were on a KKK K26/K27 turbo. We have since fitted an 034efi standalone ECU, and the afore mentioned GT30R. A friends car running a similar setup (GT turbo) and Autronics pulled 490awhp and 460 torque. Since my block is a little stronger, we hope to push mine to a reliable 450whp on pump gas/street trim and take the turbo to max at 27lbs and 530whp on 103 race with a xylene kicker . This is the limit of the turbo, and since it is on the street more than on the track we decided to stay with the 30R and get full power from 3700rpm-8000 rather go to the GT35r which is good to 600whp but has a band of 4200-8000rpm with full power. I get boost starting at 2400rpm and 14lbs by 3200 and then hang on.
Lake Speed Jr. of Joe Gibbs told us up front that the oils were good for abt 3-5% more power than any other oil they had tested and that their longest test was ~1000 miles. He also mentioned that no tests had been done on streetable vehicles. I think since we had 2 hi output vehicles where 1 was streetable and the other pure race that he saw it as an unusual test that would give him some data that would be complimentary and show some things they would not normally see in their NASCAR eng. tests. He actually sent us the oil just to see and also offered to do the testing and report the results. I thought this was a very good gesture and very intelligent and generous offer that seems to say a lot about the company. I have some experience with small block ford engines and understand that he will see some results for 1) a turboed engine 2) a much more highly stressed engine (this car has a `18% driveline loss - so crank hp on this engine is about same as NASCAR block but ~1/3 of the CI) and 3) they would probably never have tested it on a street engine without us. So the way I see it we both win big. If the general concensus on the forum is that we can run with no danger on the street we will proceed. With the potential of a 5% gain in power it will be real interesting. I will obtain a VOA and a 2500 mile and 5000 mile UOA and post the results in the forum. The car has every suspension component we can find to imporove handling and pulls over 1g on a skidpad with street tires, and well over that with Hoosiers.
Thanks to everyone who has commented and helped me understand what I need to watch. This is one of the most useful forums I have found. Thanks a lot
Rod
Lake Speed Jr. of Joe Gibbs told us up front that the oils were good for abt 3-5% more power than any other oil they had tested and that their longest test was ~1000 miles. He also mentioned that no tests had been done on streetable vehicles. I think since we had 2 hi output vehicles where 1 was streetable and the other pure race that he saw it as an unusual test that would give him some data that would be complimentary and show some things they would not normally see in their NASCAR eng. tests. He actually sent us the oil just to see and also offered to do the testing and report the results. I thought this was a very good gesture and very intelligent and generous offer that seems to say a lot about the company. I have some experience with small block ford engines and understand that he will see some results for 1) a turboed engine 2) a much more highly stressed engine (this car has a `18% driveline loss - so crank hp on this engine is about same as NASCAR block but ~1/3 of the CI) and 3) they would probably never have tested it on a street engine without us. So the way I see it we both win big. If the general concensus on the forum is that we can run with no danger on the street we will proceed. With the potential of a 5% gain in power it will be real interesting. I will obtain a VOA and a 2500 mile and 5000 mile UOA and post the results in the forum. The car has every suspension component we can find to imporove handling and pulls over 1g on a skidpad with street tires, and well over that with Hoosiers.
Thanks to everyone who has commented and helped me understand what I need to watch. This is one of the most useful forums I have found. Thanks a lot
Rod
"Is detergent still an important thing under these circumstances?"
Yes maybe do not know only a UOA will tell for sure, 5K in a hot race engine maybe way to much for oxidation, sludge and wear metal buildup.
It is an unknown I would run 500-1,000 miles and test oil before going longer BUT LZ is a good company and if the right oil is used should run very well but may not be a street oil.
bruce
Yes maybe do not know only a UOA will tell for sure, 5K in a hot race engine maybe way to much for oxidation, sludge and wear metal buildup.
It is an unknown I would run 500-1,000 miles and test oil before going longer BUT LZ is a good company and if the right oil is used should run very well but may not be a street oil.
bruce
don't know if that's entirely possible. When I tested race oils in a Formula Ford (admittedly 13 years ago) we picked up 3-4% going from Castrol Formula R 25w-50 to Neo 0W-5, which was to be expected, but there are so many good race oils available now, both from Europe (think elf, Motul, Silkolene, etc) in and the US.
What about an initial UOA at 1000 miles ?
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it, but detergents are reduced/eliminated to reduce detonation. Neo and Redlines race oils tend to rely on the detergency of their esters in this situation.
Bruce, do you know anything else about this oil ? Base oils, etc ?
Only know what is on MSDS and data sheet which is typical LZ not much info, good call on reduced detergents if not needed for long life (as in a race engine with change outs after every race) a reduction WILL reduce ash buildup in CC forgot about that good call.
LZ has made finished PCMO and other oils for years and now seems to be trying to get more involved with race and high dollar oils.
Kinda will **** off a lot of the small blenders that us LZ since now they become a competitor.
bruce
LZ has made finished PCMO and other oils for years and now seems to be trying to get more involved with race and high dollar oils.
Kinda will **** off a lot of the small blenders that us LZ since now they become a competitor.
bruce
The oil will cause ash deposits in combustion chamber? How is any significant oil getting into the comb. chamber. I can see a really small amount getting burned, but I thought most of the deposits in CC were unburned fuel deposits?? Anyway a gallon or 2 of Xylene every 3rd tank eliminates any valve or CC chamber deposits. I had 50k miles on a previous 5 cylinder engine and the Xylene every 3rd tank, on teardown, valves/CC/and pistn tops looked like they were just installed and this was on a car we could never tune leaner than 11:1 A/F ratio, so always rich. And this stuff has 117 motor octane and is the shiz for preventing detonation. 4 gallons on top of 10 gallons of 93 octane pump and we could run 9 degrees more timing. With the side benefit of cleaning the engine. But I always wear face shield and gloves to avoid the odd cancer cells it causes. Toulene is similar, but only 115 motor octane. I work in medical field and use waste Xylene from the lab but Toluene is avail. at any paint store for 6 bux a gallon. It is definately worth looking into even if only to keep the engine clean and is best knock deterrent I have ever seen. If you get blowby (which is not much of a problem w/nat. asp. cars) you do reduce oil longevity a bit tho.
Rod
Rod
Why does the oil cause comb chamber deposits if engine is tight? 1 of the posts above referenced that statement and I didnt think much oil came into chamber if motor was relatively tight,I would like to understand the reasons.
Thanks
Rod
Thanks
Rod
Rod, can you elaborate on the tolune mixture?
Could you run this in most engines with regular gas to keep everything clean with out problems.
I can't see how oil can get into the combustion chambers if engine is tight also. Only a few way's, rings, valve guides...
Could you run this in most engines with regular gas to keep everything clean with out problems.
I can't see how oil can get into the combustion chambers if engine is tight also. Only a few way's, rings, valve guides...
As I said, pure race oils often delete detergents so that the oil isn't the instigator of detonation.
Some oil is going to get into the combustion chamber as race engines generally run to looser tolerances than road engines, low and ultra low tension oil rings are used and remember that even a top compression ring runs on a film of oil.
Some oil is going to get into the combustion chamber as race engines generally run to looser tolerances than road engines, low and ultra low tension oil rings are used and remember that even a top compression ring runs on a film of oil.
Rod, can you elaborate on the tolune mixture?
Could you run this in most engines with regular gas to keep everything clean with out problems.
Not much to elaborate on. Xylene/Toluene is an aromatic ester that is seperated from gas in the refining process, I THINK because it is fairly carcinogenic. It has extremely high motor octane (the best kind to resist knock) and is really a solvent. In my hospital it is used to take all water from tissue samples before testing. Toluene is commonly known as paint thinner, and Sherwin Williams and other paint dist. sell it in 1 gallon and 55 gallon drums. Xylene is 117/118 motor octane, Toluene is not quite as high at 114/115 and I could be slightly high but you get the idea. At one time during the 1000hp per litre days F1 used it on turbo cars mixewith about 3-4% N***lene to run up to and above 50lbs boost, so it has phenominal knock resistance, and also does wonderful things to the flame front in the combustion chamber (I have been told, it is far above my ability to explain). You can use it up to about 30% mix wiith standard gasolene for knock resistance and cleaning propertys. MY EXPERIENCE on a previous 380AWHP car show that after 50,000 miles a teardown reveals an engine that is clean as a pin. I used 3 gallon of Xyl/Tolu/ene mixed with 10 gal. of 93 unleaded every 3rd tank and anytime I wanted to turn up boost or timing with great results.
Yes you can use it on cars for the cleaning dont know abt diesel. You shouldnt use it for knock resistance unless you experience detonation with reg gas, no need and no advantage. As clean as my valves/CC/Pistons were you could probably use less often. If I tune a car for 103 and want some xtra insurance (and we all do with expensive toys) I will use a gallon or 2 to make sure it doesnt knock in hard conditions.
Hope this helps you. If you feel you really have problem deposits you may want to use less until things clean up, because it may put chunks of carbon in the CC and I dont think this would be a good thing.
Remember, your mileage (results) may vary and since I am just a hardcore enthusiast instead of a pro engine builder or petroleum engineer you would be best served by seeking out their opinions prior to using. There are some tuning considerations to extract power from this, but if you arent aware of them already, seek out a pro to help :>}
Rod
Could you run this in most engines with regular gas to keep everything clean with out problems.
Not much to elaborate on. Xylene/Toluene is an aromatic ester that is seperated from gas in the refining process, I THINK because it is fairly carcinogenic. It has extremely high motor octane (the best kind to resist knock) and is really a solvent. In my hospital it is used to take all water from tissue samples before testing. Toluene is commonly known as paint thinner, and Sherwin Williams and other paint dist. sell it in 1 gallon and 55 gallon drums. Xylene is 117/118 motor octane, Toluene is not quite as high at 114/115 and I could be slightly high but you get the idea. At one time during the 1000hp per litre days F1 used it on turbo cars mixewith about 3-4% N***lene to run up to and above 50lbs boost, so it has phenominal knock resistance, and also does wonderful things to the flame front in the combustion chamber (I have been told, it is far above my ability to explain). You can use it up to about 30% mix wiith standard gasolene for knock resistance and cleaning propertys. MY EXPERIENCE on a previous 380AWHP car show that after 50,000 miles a teardown reveals an engine that is clean as a pin. I used 3 gallon of Xyl/Tolu/ene mixed with 10 gal. of 93 unleaded every 3rd tank and anytime I wanted to turn up boost or timing with great results.
Yes you can use it on cars for the cleaning dont know abt diesel. You shouldnt use it for knock resistance unless you experience detonation with reg gas, no need and no advantage. As clean as my valves/CC/Pistons were you could probably use less often. If I tune a car for 103 and want some xtra insurance (and we all do with expensive toys) I will use a gallon or 2 to make sure it doesnt knock in hard conditions.
Hope this helps you. If you feel you really have problem deposits you may want to use less until things clean up, because it may put chunks of carbon in the CC and I dont think this would be a good thing.
Remember, your mileage (results) may vary and since I am just a hardcore enthusiast instead of a pro engine builder or petroleum engineer you would be best served by seeking out their opinions prior to using. There are some tuning considerations to extract power from this, but if you arent aware of them already, seek out a pro to help :>}
Rod
Good information...thanks Rod
We had a bad experience with the gibbs oil in our chevy ZZ4 powered late model race engine(350hp). But we did not use the oil that is available to the consumer(Gibbs does not use the consumer available oil in their race engines, no matter what they tell you!). We ran the 5wt race oil that the cup cars use(would have been sweet to have a voa performed, but this is highly protected stuff and we didn't want to ruffle any feathers or possibly get our connection in trouble), needless to say the ZZ4 didn't like it. First after about 200 miles we lost a valve retainer(not sure if oil related). No debris made it to the cylinder and no damage to the affected piston or cylinder. So the head was put back together. However after inspecting the oil filter we found a considerable amount of aluminum debris in the filter which we found strange and troubling. So off to the track we went, now with synergen in the sump as we couldn't get the Gibbs oil in time. The engine didn't feel right from the get go and about 5 laps into practice the engine began to loose power and didn't want to crank. So in the pits off came the oil filter for an inspection, full of bearing material. In the trailer it went for the 2nd week in a row. Can't really blame the oil 100% but these engines have a very good track record(no pun intended) in this application running your typical 20w-50 race oil so I don't think its a stretch to say this oil contributed to the grenading of the engine. But again this isn't the oil the consumer gets. It did however give us a significant edge in power, but then again its a 5wt and came with a huge price. Just wonder what they do to the cup car engines to allow them survive with this lube. Guess we learned our lesson.
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