75 shot on the bottle

mikep · Aug 10, 2004

Question for all the engine builders, weekend racers, shade tree mechanics and long time wrench heads; Would a 75hp shot of the juice on a bone stock 16v, VVT, modern 4-banger mean an early and ugly death for the motor? It wouldn't be engaged all the time. I'm thinking a Zex system that is throttle activated with a fuel management system. It's adjustable from 75-150 hp and in the interest of engine longevity I'd opt for the lowest setting.

Am I nuts? I'm thinking about this for those track days when I clear the apex on the 18 degree back turn and mash the throttle but can only get up to around 110 mph before I have to brake for the infield turn. I'd probably also make a run or two at a local drag strip just for fun

. The cruel fact is though that this car is my daily driver and has to get me back and forth to work every day for the next 3 or 4 years. Am I nuts or can this be installed and used sparingly without severly shortening the life of the motor?

cryptokid · Aug 10, 2004

what kinds 4banger?
i know several miata guys running 75+ reguarly with no problems.

and you dont need fuel management as long as you get a wet shot.

with that said, i have heard nitrous is not so great for track racing as you tend to run out too quickly. if you use it spairingly it might work, but if its a long trck you might need a few bottles in the trunk.

427Z06 · Aug 10, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by mikep:
The cruel fact is though that this car is my daily driver and has to get me back and forth to work every day for the next 3 or 4 years.

One of my thumb rules of life are, don't buy anything you can't easily replace, and don't acquire any hobbies or habits you can't afford.

But if you're young, and haven't blown up your first engine, well then, consider it part of the School of Hard Knocks education.

mikep · Aug 10, 2004

Cryptokid.....it's a 2004 Mazda6i. Never having used the bottle, I have no idea how long a standard, 10lb bottle lasts. Sounds like it goes pretty quickly in which case what you say makes sense. I guess it's geared more toward 1/4 mile runs rather than road coarses. I may have to re-think this. I was looking to get a boost with relative few dollars invested. A turbo would be nice but very expensive.

427Z06....that's a pretty smart rule to live by. I wish I could say I'm 18 and haven't learned those lessons but the fact is I'm substantially older than that and should know better. No, I haven't completely blown up an engine but I've come pretty darn close

. Now trannies, there's something I can do a number on in no time flat

.

I've been looking for "project car" to start on with my son who's 9 y/o and already a car nut. Since we're both Mustang fans I'm looking toward a late 80s/early 90s FOX body stang and a 5.0 ltr. Tons of parts available for that motor. Maybe I should just deep six thoughts of juicing up the daily driver and put that $$ toward the Mustang fund.

Dan4510 · Aug 11, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by mikep:
Cryptokid.....it's a 2004 Mazda6i. Never having used the bottle, I have no idea how long a standard, 10lb bottle lasts. Sounds like it goes pretty quickly in which case what you say makes sense. I guess it's geared more toward 1/4 mile runs rather than road coarses. I may have to re-think this. I was looking to get a boost with relative few dollars invested. A turbo would be nice but very expensive.

427Z06....that's a pretty smart rule to live by. I wish I could say I'm 18 and haven't learned those lessons but the fact is I'm substantially older than that and should know better. No, I haven't completely blown up an engine but I've come pretty darn close

. Now trannies, there's something I can do a number on in no time flat

.

I've been looking for "project car" to start on with my son who's 9 y/o and already a car nut. Since we're both Mustang fans I'm looking toward a late 80s/early 90s FOX body stang and a 5.0 ltr. Tons of parts available for that motor. Maybe I should just deep six thoughts of juicing up the daily driver and put that $$ toward the Mustang fund.

I would recommend using the money on the mustang. One rule i live by: if you race you better be able to park it to save money up and fix it. That's why I own three cars, one fast, and two for everyday drivers. I have had one out of three dead but not two out of three. So no matter what happens, I can get in a car and go.

Dan

sbc350gearhead · Aug 11, 2004

The 302's used in mustangs from 86-93 IIRC, had fully forged bottom ends. Very durable, for the bottle, or forced induction.

427Z06 · Aug 11, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Dan4510:
That's why I own three cars, one fast, and two for everyday drivers. I have had one out of three dead but not two out of three. So no matter what happens, I can get in a car and go.
Dan

Same here. Although I did have one dead and one wounded at one time.

SSLoneStar · Aug 19, 2004

N20 and Sparingly in the same sentence LMAO !!
N20 is brutal and will most likely kill your little motor without some major upgrades to the rotating assembly.
Good Luck on the "sparingly"

SS/LS

VaderSS · Aug 19, 2004

You should go to a vehicle specific forum to see what people are being able to live with. Most likely, the transmission will be the limiting factor. Also, the more power added, the higher the RPM must be when you add it.

Nitrous oxide is not the dangerous thing that many seem to think it is. It has gotten that reputation because people have installed it with no thought to safety.

Key features of any safe N2O system.

"Wet" system. Fuel is added with the N2O so there is no danger of fuel injector lock-up.

Arming switch that does only that, and does not activate the flow. All other controls will be automatic, to eliminate human error. One little human error can reduce your engine to paperweight status, so take it out of the equation...

Throttle SwitchOnly allows the N2O to flow under WOT.

Window switch that allows the flow only when the RPM is between low and high cut-off. This prevents excessive cylinder pressure. Keep in mind that N2O adds a specific amount of power across the power band. Power is generated by the combination of torque, which is generated by cylinder pressure, and RPM. The lower the RPM, the higher the torque will be and the higher the cylinder pressure will be. If the N2O is added at too low of an RPM, then the cylinder pressure will rise too high and you just turned your engine into a paperweight. It also prevents flow during shifts if you have an automatic, and prevents the engine rev limiter from engaging while the N2O is flowing.

Timing retard control while N2O is flowing. N2O increases the effective compression ratio and can cause detonation. Detonation can reduce your engine to paperweight status...

Fuel Pressure Switch Pulls N2O flow if fuel pressure falls too low. Low fuel pressure causes a lean mixture, which can turn your engine into a paperweight.

DJ · Aug 19, 2004

Actually if used properly N2O can be fairly easy on a car because it is not always on like boost. You can shut it off during the shifts to save the tranny and I hear it does wonders for decarboning the chambers

. That said to responsibly run it costs a whole lot more than any kit I have ever seen, there are several safety items you should have for the motor and other things like copper plugs and an ignition box that can handle timing retard, spark based rev limit and the window switch to keep it from comming on too soon and to shut it off for the shift. Then a remote opener is a safety think too for just in case a solenoid sticks then you shurt the bottle at the flip of a switch. A bottle heater is very good to keep pressure consistent which is important for keeping the fueling accurate. All that said I do not know anything about your car or motor so I can not say if it is OK to run a 75 shot on, but I do know of Caprice/Impala(rwd 94-6) one guy running as much as 280hp on a stock bottom end with 150-175 being common

and several running 200, and some of these things are over 400hp NA before the N2O. So some factory motors are plenty capable of handling it. I suggest you find a model specific forum to find out more about your motors limits and I am sure somewhere you should be able to find a calculator to help determine how long a 10 or 15lbs. bottle will supply 75hp.

427Z06 · Aug 20, 2004

Do the modern safety systems for N2O prevent N2O injection on a manual transmission car with the clutch depressed or in neutral? Last time I saw a sprayed engine blow was some kid showing off at a stoplight by revving his engine and apparently floored it once, engine got a nice shot of N2O and gas and instantly hit about 10K RPMs. A bang and a few clangs latter, the farrt can was no longer farting.

SSLoneStar · Aug 20, 2004

Buwahahahahaha I woulda paid to see that one !

quote:

Originally posted by 427Z06:
Do the modern safety systems for N2O prevent N2O injection on a manual transmission car with the clutch depressed or in neutral? Last time I saw a sprayed engine blow was some kid showing off at a stoplight by revving his engine and apparently floored it once, engine got a nice shot of N2O and gas and instantly hit about 10K RPMs. A bang and a few clangs latter, the farrt can was no longer farting.

mikep · Aug 21, 2004

Thanks for all the replies. In the interest of a long and happy relationship with my daily driver I'm going to squash any thoughts of the bottle.

I just added another $600.00 to my Mustang fund

.

SSLoneStar....you're almost certainly right. Once I got a taste of the bottle the "sparingly" idea would have most likely been out the window.

DJ · Aug 21, 2004

If an owner is stupid enough to floor it not engaged then they deserve that and we as fellow travelers are better off with him off the road. That said I think it would be easy to wire up a circuit that requires the clutch to be released for the juice to flow, in gear would be a tougher nut to crack.

SSLoneStar · Aug 22, 2004

LOL! your only human and humans are known suckers for aquireing addictions to high THRILL Items

quote:

Originally posted by mikep:
Thanks for all the replies. In the interest of a long and happy relationship with my daily driver I'm going to squash any thoughts of the bottle.

I just added another $600.00 to my Mustang fund

.

SSLoneStar....you're almost certainly right. Once I got a taste of the bottle the "sparingly" idea would have most likely been out the window.

VaderSS · Aug 25, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by 427Z06:
Do the modern safety systems for N2O prevent N2O injection on a manual transmission car with the clutch depressed or in neutral?

That would be another interlock to add, if you have a stick shift, but if you have a rev-limiter, which many people seem to shun for some reason, and a window switch for the N2O, it's a non-issue.

crossbow · Oct 15, 2004

Hey Mike,

A few notes on the 6i engine...

The Stock A/F ratio hits around 11:1 at upper rpm's. Richer then one would like, but does provide a bit of "cushioning" for spray.

The biggest weakness on the 6i engine is the stroke of the rods...its a whopping 94.0 mm, which is crazy long. This of course means any sort of power mods are going to be effecting the strength of the rods first...before most of the other engine components.

I think the mazdaspeed 6 (6i turbo) actually has different rods then the standard 6i to take into account the incredible stroke of the engine under a boosted application.

I know you've already decided not to use the bottle, I'm just droppin this info for future discussion.

There are some 6s owners spraying (3.0 duratec) and it appears one of them just threw a valve after just a few weeks of spraying a 75 shot

mikep · Oct 17, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by crossbow:
Hey Mike,

A few notes on the 6i engine...

The Stock A/F ratio hits around 11:1 at upper rpm's. Richer then one would like, but does provide a bit of "cushioning" for spray.

The biggest weakness on the 6i engine is the stroke of the rods...its a whopping 94.0 mm, which is crazy long. This of course means any sort of power mods are going to be effecting the strength of the rods first...before most of the other engine components.

I think the mazdaspeed 6 (6i turbo) actually has different rods then the standard 6i to take into account the incredible stroke of the engine under a boosted application.

I know you've already decided not to use the bottle, I'm just droppin this info for future discussion.

There are some 6s owners spraying (3.0 duratec) and it appears one of them just threw a valve after just a few weeks of spraying a 75 shot

Thanks for the info...very interesting. I didn't know about the lengthy stroke on the 6i.

Yea, I'm bagging the N2O idea. I don't know what was going through my head

but I'm darn sure glad I didn't make the call to Summit Racing! Funny thing about that $600.00 I saved...it never did make it to the Mustang fund but instead is now sitting in my son's hockey gear bag out in the garage

. Bad enough my son plays the most expensive sport there is but he also plays goal.

Too bad about that guy throwing a valve. That's an expensive bit of fun! Would like to see the look on the dealers face when they see the nitrous setup.

crossbow · Oct 17, 2004

quote:

Too bad about that guy throwing a valve. That's an expensive bit of fun! Would like to see the look on the dealers face when they see the nitrous setup.

Actually Venom is going to be looking at/repairing/replacing the engine...since they were using the guys car as their test platform. Which is pretty good of them. I'll post more specifics when their available.

Here's the spec sheet on the L3 for ya.

As for internals...the L3 has a cast crank, forged sinister rods, and moly coated pistons. The AJ (V6) has the same setup, but with a forged steel crank instead of the cast. (I don't why mazda didn't use a forged steel one in the L3

)

Shaman · Dec 29, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by sbc350gearhead:
The 302's used in mustangs from 86-93 IIRC, had fully forged bottom ends. Very durable, for the bottle, or forced induction.

87-92 I know were forged, but i don't know about before 87. 93 was not. If you want to juice a mustang, get a speed density, as it will take to the juice better, just know that there isn't a real way to do another type of forced induction or a big cam. MAF will do all of the above. Block should be good for 500 hp tuned right, and parts are everywhere.

75 shot on the bottle

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