Oiling Problem with Canton Oil Pan, SBC

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forum rules say we can't link to other forums, so i'm going to paste what i posted on the vette forum. as a BITOG-specific aside, i took a sample of the GC 0w30 that came out just before the new oil pump, i'm curious to see how obvious the bearing wear will be. i will post the UOA when i get it.

this is a '96 LT4 corvette.

here's the problem post:

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i have a 396 in my '96, just went in a few months ago. i originally tried using the stock pan. since the stock windage tray would not clear the new crank/rod combination, it was left out, and the stock pan was not able to keep the pickup immersed in oil under hard acceleration without it. oil pressure would basically fall to zero when i floored it.
replaced the stock pan with a 240T, using the "pressure balanced" HV pump offered by canton. at first i thought it was all peachy keen, but soon realized the oil pressure was dropping under acceleration still, just not nearly as much. it would cruise at 60psi, but when accelerating hard the pressure would drop to about 50psi, sometimes 45psi. if i just revved it sitting still, it would maintain over 60psi until the last 1000rpm, then drop.

so, i bought a new stock SV oil pump and new pickup. i triple-checked pickup to pan clearance. figuring the initial oiling problems might have worn the bearings, i changed all the rod bearings. (a couple were on the worn side, as it turned out.)

now the pressure signature is really good under almost all conditions, except hard acceleration (again). even with hot oil it idles at 35psi, hits 60psi by 2k rpm, and will reach the oil pump's bypass pressure of 70psi by around 3k rpm if just free revving it. (so the oil pressure drop over 5k rpm before must have been due to wornish rod bearings.) but under hard acceleration it dips down to 50-55psi.

50-55psi is borderline palatable, except that i discovered it jumps to 70psi the instant i brake hard. so i can floor it all the way through 2nd, leave it in gear, jump on the brakes and even though it's still at very high rpm it instantly hits 70psi. so it's definitely an oil control problem within the pan.

last time the pan was off i did check to make sure all the trap doors appeared to be working fine. i couldn't spot any defect in manufacture. i'm starting to wonder if the conclusion needs to be that canton isn't doing a good job with those vette pans. what's especially frustrating is that i had no oiling issues with the stock pan on the stock engine, and the canton is specifically made for racing use.

i'm open to any input/suggestions. thanks.

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i followed up with:

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i should add that i tried both 1qt over and 1qt under to eliminate that as a possibility. also, this signature remains regardless of oil weight (i tried 10w40, 10w30, 15w40, and 0w30, some petroleum, some synthetics, etc), oil filter, using the stock filter bypass or using the canton bypass eliminator. all combinations behave exactly the same way.
EDIT: oh, and i also tried a mechanical gauge, and i tried moving the sending unit location to where the oil temp sensor goes, just to eliminate that.

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thanks!

-michael
 
Excessive main bearing clearance.

When you "get on it" the force of the pistons under power pushes the crank down against the lower main bearings. This uncovers the oil holes in the upper mains more than when your just cruising.

Lowers the oil pressure.

Also. Watch your oil pressure when driving normal. Say 45 mph in higear. Remove your foot from the throttle and see if the pressure increases slightly.

HTH
 
quote:

Originally posted by Chris142:

Also. Watch your oil pressure when driving normal. Say 45 mph in higear. Remove your foot from the throttle and see if the pressure increases slightly.


i was more doubtful until you mentioned this. i thought i had actually noticed a maybe 5psi change a few times when letting off from a light cruise. i kind of thought i was imagining things, since it wasn't perfectly repeatable.

so, for real? that's what you think it is? your explanation sounds plausible. do you know this from experience, education, guessing, or being smart?

thanks.

-michael
 
How did the bearings look when you had it apart on the journal side? Did you look at the mains? Do you know what the clearance is ... data from a real micrometer and dial bore gauge? My understanding is Pressure is somewhat meaningfully, but flow is the key PV. Of course you can't measure flow to easy in a car. I have the same issue now when I went from a 20W-50 to a 40W dino. It's taking some real nads for me to keep the 40W in there. I have a 3 qt accumulator that helps keep it up on a pass. My pressure drops about 5 to 10 psi on a 1/4 pass cause the oil temp in the oil passages rises from 150 to 200F on a single pass. The avg oil temp in the pan is not too much changed. I run coated moly bearings and have 3.4 to 3.6 on the mains and 2.7 to 3.0. BTW I have had the best luck with Mildon pans and stock Meling HV pumps
 
quick_16, i don't know anything about your engine, but if it's a street-ish engine those clearances sound pretty large.

as for my mains, i changed the rod bearings lying on my back under the car in the garage, and knew i could not change the mains without transmission and front cover/timing chain removal, so i didn't look at the main bearings. now i'm wishing i had at least removed one main cap for a look, though.

the clearances were .0025" on both rods and crank when the engine was built. no telling now!

-michael
 
quote:

Originally posted by Chris142:
Excessive main bearing clearance.

here's a thought... if it's main bearing clearances, the bottom halves will be more worn that the top. i can change just the bottom halves without even removing the transmission or front cover, and probably more easily than how i did the rod bearings.

it would behoove me, then, to try swapping just the bottom halves and see if that makes it better.

thoughts, comments? thanks.

-michael
 
Mike, I take it you have a bored and stroked LT4. I have a bored and stroked to 396 LT1. Do you use/burn any oil? My builder has rebuilt my motor and we're using a Z-06 type piston rings and I use about a QT. every 1250 miles. I too have a 7 qt. Canton race pan. I don't race and never noticed a pressure drop, but i will try the light cruise pressure check. thanks!
 
carl, my 396 burned about a quart in its first ~750 miles. since then i can't tell that it has burned even a tiny drop. i'm really happy about that. i was worried since it has 6" rods and the oil pin intersects the oil ring groove. my builder made a really big point of saying that the oil-burning stroker myth was due to improper machining and/or assembly, and he seems to have proven his point.

keep in mind, though, i'm using standard tension oil rings. i think the Z06 rings are low tension.

oh, but i also have bronze guides in the heads so that i can use really good viton seals.

it also gets pretty good fuel economy on the highway. i went on a road trip to austin and back and averaged over 25mpg. commuting in town it drops like a rock. on a tankful when i auto-x it can be as bad as 10mpg.

-michael
 
My oil consumption is with oil getting by my rings. Seals are good. The rings we used are "standard" tension "Z06 style". I'm .030" over bore so they are not actual Z06 rings. The shape/configuration of the ring is like the Z06. I have a 5.875" rod and I am convinced the tension on the rings is wrong and I have questions about the blocks machining. I too get get good fuel economy. Down to Cincy and back, 25.8 mpg(240 miles)last week.
 
right, of course, it didn't even occur to me that they simply couldn't be Z06 rings due to the difference in LS6 vs LTx/SBC bore size.

maybe the rod side clearances are too large, and you're over-oiling the cylinder walls?

have you run the engine hard yet? mine didn't start to seal well until some dyno pulls.

-michael
 
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