I've got a friend who's a former motorcycle racer. He's looking at getting a car to get back into racing with. With cars he's used to running V8 american metal. What's out there that can be put together for $15k? Anything is fair game, but vehicles with some good power would be nice (no offense to the spec miata class). this could even range into something like a Lotus Seven, so any ideas are very welcome. Thanks a ton.
Opinions on what to get back into racing with.
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Specifically what type of racing (of course, it obviously sounds like road racing). My experience is in Solo II, so...
Under $15k and v8...
The LT1 Camaros (at least for solo II) are better than the Mustangs in FS and ESP (with similar setup levels). They have really good, wide tire/wheel fitment too (they can fit the rear ZR1 wheels with spacers) if you do choose a class that is relatively modified.
OH duh...
Formula Vee.
Beetle suspension and motor, 100+hp in a ~700 lb chassis with multiple speeds (however many a volkswagon has).
Be aware that you're not going to put out tons of power, so buy the lighter magnesium block, run the same amount of power, spend less money and have less weight. They are a very popular nationally recognized vehicle that recently had a class seperated for them pretty much.
You can get a well running vehicle for well under 10k.
[ March 29, 2004, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Thomas Pyrek ]
Under $15k and v8...
The LT1 Camaros (at least for solo II) are better than the Mustangs in FS and ESP (with similar setup levels). They have really good, wide tire/wheel fitment too (they can fit the rear ZR1 wheels with spacers) if you do choose a class that is relatively modified.
OH duh...
Formula Vee.
Beetle suspension and motor, 100+hp in a ~700 lb chassis with multiple speeds (however many a volkswagon has).
Be aware that you're not going to put out tons of power, so buy the lighter magnesium block, run the same amount of power, spend less money and have less weight. They are a very popular nationally recognized vehicle that recently had a class seperated for them pretty much.
You can get a well running vehicle for well under 10k.
[ March 29, 2004, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Thomas Pyrek ]
Thanks Thomas. Let me get a little more specific. I mean road racing, and something on a full track instead of autocross. I'm trying to talk him out of the V8, but he seems to think that the fastest way around the course is with the tail out. He seems to be totally anti-porsche. What does everyone think of BMW 2002s? I am anti F body and completely against the wet noodle chassis of the mustang. I'd love to seem him in a nice Porsche or BMW. I like the formula vee idea, but I doubt he'll drive anything that unsubstantial. But, who knows. Again, thanks for the replies. I appreciate them.
I'm not familiar with the BMW stuff, but I dont' think any of thsoe will meet his criterea.
Formula Vee's have enough power to hang it out. The power to weight ratio is very much where it needs to be. Let him learn a little bit and push him to do that, but don't force your opinion of what he should buy. It is, after all, going to be his car. Nothing is wrong with the F bodies that are well set up.
There's quite a big community of Formula Vee'ers out there that can help him out.
Another "more substantial" vehicle is a lola/formula ford. From what I recall, those are beyond the $15k budget
Or if he wants to go really fast for cheap, shifter kart. One could find and build a nationally top competative kart for $5k, massively cool acceleration, braking and handling, massively cheap parts, easy to work on (20 minutes to rebuild the motor). The most liberal motors are ~40 hp and the most conservative are 32. Minimum weight would be 385lbs without driver.
Can you tell what I would like to be driving yet?
Formula Vee's have enough power to hang it out. The power to weight ratio is very much where it needs to be. Let him learn a little bit and push him to do that, but don't force your opinion of what he should buy. It is, after all, going to be his car. Nothing is wrong with the F bodies that are well set up.
There's quite a big community of Formula Vee'ers out there that can help him out.
Another "more substantial" vehicle is a lola/formula ford. From what I recall, those are beyond the $15k budget
Or if he wants to go really fast for cheap, shifter kart. One could find and build a nationally top competative kart for $5k, massively cool acceleration, braking and handling, massively cheap parts, easy to work on (20 minutes to rebuild the motor). The most liberal motors are ~40 hp and the most conservative are 32. Minimum weight would be 385lbs without driver.
Can you tell what I would like to be driving yet?
some of the "local" tracks are starting up a formula rx-7 class. they use modified yet restricted first generation rx-7s to keep it cheap yet competitive. sounds like fun to me.
formula vee is another remotely cheap way to race. around here the only way you are going to race a v-8 for cheap is dirt track and it doesn't sound like he is into roundy rounders.
formula vee is another remotely cheap way to race. around here the only way you are going to race a v-8 for cheap is dirt track and it doesn't sound like he is into roundy rounders.
Unfortunantly the rx-7's have the same problems the Miata's do; they're slow to accelerate. Spec RX-7 used to be bigger around here. Spec Miata has taken that niche over, I think.
anyone have a Road Racing rule book? How about some turbo cars? What level of preperation is needed to get a turbo car competative since they're not IT legal?
anyone have a Road Racing rule book? How about some turbo cars? What level of preperation is needed to get a turbo car competative since they're not IT legal?
If he'd be interested in checking out a formula vee, Speednation has one for sale here locally (bridgeville area). I've driven it, and believe me, it's a wilder ride than any mustang or camaro you could build for 15k, and i think they're asking well under his budget. It's only been used for solo II and hillclimbs since they bought it, but the cage is being updated to the current spec rules so that a potential buyer could road race it.
[ March 30, 2004, 01:32 AM: Message edited by: Neonmike22 ]
[ March 30, 2004, 01:32 AM: Message edited by: Neonmike22 ]
I seems that an F-body with sub-frame connectors would be ideal for road racing. From what I've read the BMW is great at trail braking but lacks torque coming out of the corners.
Patman
Staff member
As the owner of an LT1 f-body, I have to agree that they are great values, but if you're going to be digging into the motor, they are difficult to work on. You can probably get more bang for your buck with a 5.0 Mustang. You could pick up a real nice one for $5000, and mods are very reasonably priced for these cars. For $15k total you could easily have a serious racing machine.
Even though you mentioned not liking the Mustang chassis, you can build a 1990's Mustang into an American Sedan car for $15-20K if you can pick the base car up cheap enough. Enough racers have worked with the car long enough that the modified suspensions ( think Griggs ) are the match of the F-bodies.
The mods allowed keep the cost to build a car down to reasonable levels but expect to spend some maintenance $$ on tires and brakes in a season. And they're real racing cars. With a single 4 barrel and limited engine mods they lap as fast as the trans-am cars of old.
One other thing - Unless he's determined to build his own car, he'll be money ahead to buy a roller or a complete almost or ready to race car. The depreciation on completed race cars seems to be an instant 50%...
[ March 30, 2004, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: jsharp ]
The mods allowed keep the cost to build a car down to reasonable levels but expect to spend some maintenance $$ on tires and brakes in a season. And they're real racing cars. With a single 4 barrel and limited engine mods they lap as fast as the trans-am cars of old.
One other thing - Unless he's determined to build his own car, he'll be money ahead to buy a roller or a complete almost or ready to race car. The depreciation on completed race cars seems to be an instant 50%...
[ March 30, 2004, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: jsharp ]
Well I have to admit I am biased but I would definitely agree with the BMW part. Most specifically E30 M3. For $15k you could have a KILLER race car. If you like tail happy, e30 is your car. I can hang the tail out on any corner exit that isn't low speed requiring massive torque to light up tires(but if I wan to dump clutch thats doable), especially now with the M3 rear sway bar. E30 is already close to neutral, you can make the race car neutral VERY easy.
Show him this site and see what he thinks!
:
http://www.e30m3performance.com/
With the engine mods he has done, your friend would have no problem with getting the tail out. Heck a stock M3 will get the tail out on exit on a road course...
Much lighter than a Camaro. Ultra nimble. Think about it...what would you rather have, a 2.5L I4 making 280hp revving to 8k rpm
, or a beastly 5.7L V8 making 280hp. The I4 will have SO much less inertia over the front end, allowing so much quicker turn-in. Much more responsive and better balance.
Show him this site and see what he thinks!
http://www.e30m3performance.com/
With the engine mods he has done, your friend would have no problem with getting the tail out. Heck a stock M3 will get the tail out on exit on a road course...
Much lighter than a Camaro. Ultra nimble. Think about it...what would you rather have, a 2.5L I4 making 280hp revving to 8k rpm
For cheap road racing in a V-8 powered car......You may want to look into a late 80's vette. A model in good condition can be had for less than 10 grand. In stock form, they can easily outhandle any stock mustang or camaro, and the IRS will help you out over any road imperfections. The TPI L98 engine is easy to work on, and the torque will be welcome coming out of a corner. These engines are easily upgradable and can kick out some serious juice in modded form. The chassis and brakes are good enough to run stock, until you get the money to upgrade. For 15 grand, you could have a model that will kick out over 300 HP and pull over 1 g in the turns.
Does he own a rulebook yet? I don't want to repeat something he already knows, but if he's not familiar with the class rules then he shouldn't buy a vehicle yet. From what it sounds like, he wants to do something like IT. Definately have him pick out a class first though before he buys a vehicle.
Thanks Thomas. He's not sure of a class yet. We're going to try to find a vehicle and a class at the same time.
Great responses. I think that I like the E30 or the Vette ideas the best. I have to appologize to the F-body guys. I think that they are good solid cars, just not my cup of tea. Keep the opinions coming. BTW-he told me today that he would prefer a street legal vehicle in the beginning.
Patman
Staff member
Good point! I put a total of $40,000 into my 87 Mustang GT and sold it for $10,000. It ran 12.1 at 112mph, had a killer Candy Apple Red paint job, a 1000 watt stereo, Weld wheels, and practically all new parts througout the car. I built it up over 7 years. Sold it (and broke the lease on the 95 Trans Am I also had at the same time) so I could order a brand new 98 Formula.
I think you really have to examine your motivations when you decide to go racing, even if it's just low dollar autocrossing or bracket racing. Some people just want to race, while a lot of us like building cars or bikes that we then take racing. Those of us who like to build things are into a much more expensive and much more labor intensive hobby.
Then agian, some of us wouldn't have it any other way no matter what we tell people...
Have you thought about Karts. Don't laugh these guys are hitting close to 150 mph in a glorified Go Kart. 3 Gs into a corner and 1.5 inches off the ground. How about 0-100-0 in 9.5 seconds, 0-60 in 3.4 seconds.
I hear you can get in for under 8k and they are cheap to race. A entry level superkart runs $15K and up to $30K with all the toys.
Popular Science did an article on them
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/auto/article/0,12543,577526-4,00.html
I hear you can get in for under 8k and they are cheap to race. A entry level superkart runs $15K and up to $30K with all the toys.
Popular Science did an article on them
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/auto/article/0,12543,577526-4,00.html
ALS, I would love to get into karting. I've looked into some of the less expensive classes. Unfortunately my friend is insisting on a full size automobile.
Yeah, that street legal thing sort of rules out a kart
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