Elf Evolution 0w30 VW506.01 in 2003 Golf TDI

[Tornado Red]

Back on June 13th I posted UOA results on Delvac 1 after 9566 miles, as I prepared for a test run using Elf Evolution 0w30 meeting the VW506.01 spec for extended drain intervals.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=000277

I received the results of a UOA test after 10674 miles using the Elf, and I'm very unhappy. Not only did I not observe any improvement in fuel economy, but the wear numbers look terrible. I'll be changing out this oil and going back to Mobil Delvac 1 5w40 later today.

Tested by Oil Analyzers Inc.
First number is Delvac. Second number is Elf
May 28 -- July 29
161421 -- 172095 (10674 miles on sample)

Iron 38 -- 96
Chromium 1 -- 2
Lead 2 -- 3
Copper 3 -- 4
Tin 0 -- 0
Aluminum 7 -- 7
Nickel 0 -- 4
Silver 0 -- 0
Silicon 5 -- 10
Boron 29 -- 82
Sodium 0 -- 0
Magnesium 615 -- 367
Calcium 2775 -- 3109
Barium 0 -- 0
Phosphorus 1231 -- 1133
Zinc 1528 -- 1477
Moly 1 -- 0
all others 0 -- 0

Fuel < 1 -- < 1
Viscosity @ 100C =15.33 -- 11.39
Water 0 -- 0
Soot 1.2% -- 1.6%
Coolant = none -- none

TBN = 7.35 -- 6.52

Again, Oil Analyzers suggests no corrective action required, resample at next regular interval. That's not going to happen.

Though I think I will take another sample, just to confirm the numbers. I've got about 13.5k miles on the oil right now.

Comments on the Fe, and the soot?

 

[Pablo]

Fe? Too thin to protect. These engines seem to require a 40.....

 

[Rex]

Interesting report. I have been impressed with the result Delvac 1 always seems to give these TDI drivers.

Any results showing longer oil change intervals? Like 20K miles with Delvac 1?

 

[Tornado Red]

quote:

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Originally posted by Pablo:
Fe? Too thin to protect. These engines seem to require a 40.....

---

That's what I think. Maybe 0w30 is okay for some drivers, in a different climate perhaps, or those who use a different fuel (I use CARB #2 almost entirely, with just a few tanks of B20). But my experiment is over.

 

[TooSlick]

Why should you be surprised that an oil with a HT/HS viscosity of 3.0 Cp doesn't protect as well as a heavy duty diesel oil with a HT/HS > 4.0 Cp?

TS

 

[The Critic]

Everyone is quick to blame the oil, but fails to notice that the soot % is 1/3 higher in this second sample, compared to the first, which is likely responsible for much of the increased Iron.

 

[Tornado Red]

quote:

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Originally posted by The Critic:
Everyone is quick to blame the oil, but fails to notice that the soot % is 1/3 higher in this second sample, compared to the first, which is likely responsible for much of the increased Iron.

---

Conversations over at the tdiclub have answered a few questions, and raised some others.

I had a boost leak for about one week and 1000 miles, which resulted in excess smoke. So I think at least some of the extra soot loading occured during this period.

The 10 ppm of silicon raised a question about the air filter -- it was changed during the test period, but wasn't unusually dirty before, and I don't think I introduced any contamination. But... there's no other explanation.

My current opinion is that the 506.01 oil isn't as bad as this UOA shows. But I'm really glad to have some fresh Delvac in the engine right now.

 

[TooSlick]

You could run Delvac 1 or the Amsoil 15w-40 @ 2%-3% soot and still not see this level of Fe in the oil. If you had continued to run this oil out to 20k as you had intended, the rate of Fe wear would have increased over the latter part of the OCI, since the soot levels would be even greater.

These very low viscosity diesel oils only perform well if you're using high centane, ULSD fuel and/or biodiesel and aren't generating much soot. If you're running a 1 micron bypass filter that is removing the soot as it's generated, that will also work. Several years back I did some experimenting with the VW 505.00 rated, Amsoil 0w-30 in the TDI engine. It did fine when coupled with a bypass filter, but not so good by itself at higher soot levels.

Soot is very abrasive and thinner oil films result in "three body wear" at higher soot levels.

By the way, anyone who claims a 10% fuel improvement in going from a 5w-40 synthetic to a 0w-30 obviously failed viscous fluid flow in school, or is subject to a strong placebo effect.

TS

 

[Rex]

TooSlick

Where can I purchase on of these 1 micron bypass for the 01 vw TDI? (no intention to distract from original post topic, by the way)

Hopefully Im not breaking rules on this forum for asking a business question.

 

[TooSlick]

Pablo or MSparks can help you out with that....The installation is pretty straight forward - lots of pics on the TDI Forum site.

TS

 

[Tornado Red]

I believe the soot and iron numbers may have been the result of special circumstances. The other wear numbers are good, the TBN was still good, the viscosity was still good, the additives were little changed from virgin oil.

I'm running Delvac 5w40 right now, and will stay with it for the next OCI. But I still have five liters of the Elf, and will run it again during the cooler months.

 

[Tornado Red]

After I received the test results posted above, I drained the Elf 0w30 in favor of Delvac. I also drew another sample of the Elf and sent it in. Here are all three results:
First number is Delvac. Second number is Elf at 10.6k. Third is Elf at 14.0k.
May 28 -- July 29 -- August 20
161421 -- 172095 -- 175508

Iron 38 -- 96 -- 152
Chromium 1 -- 2 -- 3
Lead 2 -- 3 -- 6
Copper 3 -- 4 -- 5
Tin 0 -- 0 -- 0
Aluminum 7 -- 7 -- 6
Nickel 0 -- 4 -- 0
Silver 0 -- 0 -- 0
Silicon 5 -- 10 -- 8
Boron 29 -- 82 -- 57
Sodium 0 -- 0 -- 2
Magnesium 615 -- 367 -- 287
Calcium 2775 -- 3109 -- 2381
Barium 0 -- 0 -- 0
Phosphorus 1231 -- 1133 -- 1108
Zinc 1528 -- 1477 -- 1322
Moly 1 -- 0 -- 1
all others 0 -- 0 -- 0

Fuel Viscosity @ 100C =15.33 -- 11.39 -- 11.52
Water 0 -- 0 -- 0
Soot 1.2% -- 1.6% -- 1.9%
Coolant = none -- none -- none

TBN = 7.35 -- 6.52 -- 6.32

During the last 3.4k miles, the soot kept going up and the iron wear kept getting worse. This happened even though the turbo boost problem that I blamed for the original bad results was corrected back in June.

Everything else still looked good, though.

I've only got 2000 miles on the Delvac 5w40, so it will be awhile before I know if I have a chronic soot problem.

Has anyone ever noticed higher soot readings in the summer? If ambient air temp is high, the intercooler doesn't work so well, the fuel temp is higher, AC runs all the time, fuel economy goes down... I know all this. But would any of these factors contribute to higher soot readings in the used oil? Do these factors shift the conditions from "normal" to "severe"?

 

[TooSlick]

In diesel engines the soot concentration correlates almost directly with the rate of iron wear and to a lesser degree with ring/cylinder wear. This is because valvetrain components function under high pressures, with very thin AW films. Soot disrupts the integrity of these AW films and three body, abrasive wear results.

As you can see, soot has much less effect on bearing wear, since these components function under hydrodynamic lubrication once full oil pressure is achieved.

Given the number of miles on this engine, you may simply need new fuel injectors to restore the spray pattern and combustionn efficiency. As a less expensive option, you should also consider removing the ones you have and getting them ultrasonically cleaned in a solvent tank. Many Bosch service centers can perform the latter task.

TS

 

[md_lucky_13]

Its time for an engine "flush" and a bypass filter.

I would run 2 very, very short intervals with a cheaper oil. Go like 500-1000 miles each.

Then install a bypass filter. Many good choices.

Sample again after the bypass and fresh oil with like 2k on the oil to see where it stands.

You might also have a chunk of gunk stuck in a bearing causing the strange readings, but I would expect the copper to be higher..

have you adjusted valves recently?

 

[TooSlick]

This engine has hydraulic valve lifters which are self adjusting....

The bypass filter might be an good idea, but if the spray pattern of the injectors has degraded, they should be cleaned or replaced if worn.

TS

 

[FowVay]

 

[Tornado Red]

One individual remarked that if my injector nozzles were worn, the chromium wear would be higher. I have about 125k miles on some excellent after-market nozzles.

Someone else suggested LiquiMoly Diesel Purge
( http://www.liqui-moly.de/web/lmhomeus.nsf/pages/index_liqui ). And it just so happens there is a LiquiMoly distributor here in San Diego. ( http://www.interautopartssd.com/ ) What I might do is change the fuel filter and fill up the new filter with Diesel Purge or something like that, then pour the rest in the fuel tank.

As for a bypass filter... if I cannot fix the problem, then I might have to go that route. But most other TDI drives never see soot levels this high, so there is a problem.

As for an engine flush... this engine only had Mobil Delvac or Mobil T&SUV prior to the test of this Elf. So I don't think there is an oil system problem, I think it must be a fuel system problem.

 

[Terry]

Tornado, may I suggest that you procure a professional interpretation instead of relying on novice advice that is allowing needless wear and poor results. You are wasting your money on oil analysis if there is no specific corrective action items to act on.

Terry

www.dysonanalysis.com

Our Premium analysis service or existing analysis interpretation is suggested.

 

[FowVay]

Post the nitration and oxidation numbers. The soot numbers look like every other TDI i've seen over the past 7 years.

Are you chipped? Is your EGR still working as designed? Is your intake, EGR cooler and valve, and intercooler clean?

I agree with TooSlick that the oil film and additive composition may not be providing the boundary layer lubrication that you're needing.

I have used Delvac-1 for nearly all of my last 170,000 miles and I've had soot numbers in the same leaque as yours for the entire time I've owned the car. The oil runs hot in these engines and oxidation will normally be a bit higher than normal but the anti-oxidant in the Delvac is very capable of handle this situation.

I'd clean the intake, stick with Delvac-1, and keep smiling as you reach the quarter million mile mark.

 

[Tornado Red]

quote:

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Originally posted by FowVay:
Post the nitration and oxidation numbers. The soot numbers look like every other TDI i've seen over the past 7 years.

---

Nitration and oxidation are "N/A" for all three tests. So I guess Oil Analyzers Inc doesn't run those tests unless requested?

quote:

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Are you chipped? Is your EGR still working as designed? Is your intake, EGR cooler and valve, and intercooler clean?

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No chip. EGR is working, but the cycle is reduced versus stock, so I should be getting reduced exhaust gases through the EGR and intake. The timing belt was replaced a few months ago, adn I think a few drops of oil came out of the intercooler/IC pipe.

quote:

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I have used Delvac-1 for nearly all of my last 170,000 miles and I've had soot numbers in the same leaque as yours for the entire time I've owned the car. The oil runs hot in these engines and oxidation will normally be a bit higher than normal but the anti-oxidant in the Delvac is very capable of handle this situation.

I'd clean the intake, stick with Delvac-1, and keep smiling as you reach the quarter million mile mark. [/qb]

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I don't think the intake is that dirty -- if it was, I should be seeing some drop-off in performance, or at least more smoke in the exhaust.

If the current fill of Delvac 1 tests out similar to the baseline which was tested back in the spring, then I can pretty much narrow the problem down to the Elf oil itself. Right now I'm still inclined not to blame the oil.