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#586396 - 06/18/03 10:45 AM 38k on delvac 1 in detroit diesel
GMCDURAMAX Offline


Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 37
Loc: HOUSTON
code:
MILES   14245--------28999-------37863
ALUM----3------------4-----------3
CHROMIUM-5-----------3-----------0
COPPER---11----------10----------7
IRON-----20----------17----------19
LEAD-----3-----------2-----------11
TIN------0-----------3-----------1
SILICON--9-----------7-----------8
POTASIUM-16----------10----------0
SODIUM---6-----------70(ABNORM)--8
VISC@100--13.7-------13.8--------14
TBN-------9.1--------8.3---------5.2
SOOT-----0.9--------1.4----------1.9

THE 28999 MILES HAS FOUR GALLONS OF MAKEUP OIL(2 WITH THE OIL FILTER CHANGE) AND THE 37863 HAS 1 GALLON OF MAKEUP OIL. THIS IS ON A 11.1 LITER 60 SERIES DETROIT DIESEL ENGINE.THEY RECOMENDED CHANGING THE OIL BETWEEN 40,000 AND 45,000 MILES.

DO SOME OF THESE NUMBERS SEEM A LITTLE ERRATIC TO ANYONE? I'M QUESTIONING THE RELIABILITY OF THIS LAB.
THE SODIUM JUMP ON THE SECOND TEST WAS WAY HIGH AND THEN WAS NORMAL ON THE THIRD TEST. MAYBE I GOT SWEAT IN THE SAMPLE???? I WAS HOT WHEN I TOOK IT.
CHROMIUM AND COPPER WENT DOWN EVERY TIME. THERE WAS A LOT OF MAKE-UP OIL IN THE SECOND SAMPLE, BUT NOT THE THIRD. HOW DID THAT HAPPEN???
LEAD JUMPED UP THE THIRD TEST. MAYBE THE OLD OIL ISNT PROTECTING AS WELL???
ALL THE SAMPLES SHOWED ABNORMAL WATER,BUT THEY SAID THERE MACHINE ALWAYS SHOWS IT WITH DELVAC 1. IT HASNT USED ANY ANTIFREEZE AND GLYCOL WAS NEVER DETECTED IN ANY SAMPLE.
IS IT NORMAL FOR NUMBERS TO JUMP AROUND LIKE THIS???

THIS WAS MY FIRST FILL WITH SYNTHETIC.PREVIOUS POSTS SAID DUE TO CLEANING THE ENGINE IT WOULDNT LAST AS LONG AS NORMAL. I'M GOING TO GIVE IT ONE MORE TRY WITH SYNTHETIC BUT IF IT DOESNT LAST AT LEAST 60,000 MILES THEN ITS TOO EXPENSIVE.(11 GALLONS AT $21 A GALLON)

ANY COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS WELCOME.

[ June 19, 2003, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

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#586397 - 06/18/03 05:22 PM Re: 38k on delvac 1 in detroit diesel
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4858
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
I have been using Detroit 60s 12.7 lts for many years. The following OA results are on Mobil Delvac 1 5w-40. Oil filters are Donaldson ELF 3998 and a Glacier/Mann 600 series centrifuge
code:
Averages - At OC ( ) - Limits
Soot 2,86 ( 3.30) 3.50
Iron 95 ( 119 ) 150
Alum 2 ( 13 )
Copper 8 ( 10 ) 30
Chrom 8 ( 11 )
Lead 24 ( 31 )
Silicates 29 ( 39 )
Viscosity 86 ( 82 ) 72 - 119
TAN 5.94 ( 6.53 ) 8
TBN 2.72 ( 2.41 ) 1

Oil consumption avearge all engines - 6310 kms
Our "break even" OC point is 80000 kms - our average is 96000 kms

Regards
Doug Hillary

[ June 19, 2003, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

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#586398 - 06/19/03 03:31 AM Re: 38k on delvac 1 in detroit diesel
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4858
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,

since my last post I have reviewed my Detroit 60 DDEC4/Delvac 1 samples over the last three years and note:
No "spike" has ever occurred in Sodium - the average of all samples is 14 and at OC 19. The worst was 29

Mobil's Soot limit of 3.50 is used by me, Detroit's limit is <3.00. The highest we have allowed is 3.58

In my experience the TBN must always be above 1 and the TAN below 8

I always look for serious OA trends and these motors are really very good performers. I have four engines at present with over 500000 miles each - oil consumption is about 4000 miles/litre
They start to use some oil after about 30000 miles into the OC cycle but this is a good way of maintaining a good TBN
My economics were based against using Castrol Enduro LD 15w-40 semi-synthetic and have been justified

I have one truck, with a Detroit 60 DDEC3 engine, on local distribution work and change its Delvac 1 after about 25000 miles. This was arrived at by OA - the reason for the low OC cycle is due to some idling and this engine does not have a Glacier-Mann centrifuge fitted

Valve covers off these engines have always revealed an "as new" appearance. No build up has ever occurred and a nice "wipe off" residue exists

Any Detroit 60 after DDEC3 should be fitted with a centrifuge to control Soot. They really do work very well
We do not change the Donaldson ELF filters in mid OC cycle. They go the whole way - cutting them open after an OC has always shown them to be "like new" - the centrifuge doing its protective job very very well!

I now use Delvac in some cars - BMW Z3 2.8, Subaru Outback 2.5, utes etc. to standardise on oil stocks. It is a great product, if, a little expensive

Regards

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#586399 - 06/19/03 05:10 AM Re: 38k on delvac 1 in detroit diesel
sprintman Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 11006
Loc: Canberra ACT Australia
Doug how do you buy D1? I used to buy in 20 litre drum from local disty but would be cheaper in larger qty's. Have you considered Redline for your truck?

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#586400 - 06/19/03 06:46 AM Re: 38k on delvac 1 in detroit diesel
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4858
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi Sprintman,

No, I have never considered another diesel oil after methodically progressing from Castrol RX Super ( great ), to Castrol Enduro LD ( excellent, to Delvac 1 over the last 12 years. Delvac 1 is well known to Detroit and Mobil have been a reasonably good supplier. The oil is probably the very best - but I'm open minded

Supply is a real worry. I buy in 20 ltr packs ( 2 per truck per OC ) and keep 40 ltr on hand plus 5 ltr in each truck for top up.
I was in Brisbane last week to pick up 6x20 ltrs only to find the Distributer - Pacific Petroleum ( PP ) - closing their Ipswich location on 30/6 so no stocks held. I "blew my cool" and PP could only find 2x20 ltr in QLD
It appears that Mobil have frozen and are rebranding the stocks on hold now that they meet Daimler Chrysler's new spec. and I suspect CI too

Delvac 1 is not readily available at retail outlets - IVECO TRUCKS and Detroit sell it. Otherwise it is only a Mobil Distributor transaction and only then by prior arrangement

ExxonMobil need to sort all this out quick - I buy my fuel on their account too and they still cannot co-ordinate the Lube and Mobilcard Statements after transfering all these tasks to NZ about 18 mths ago. I paid one of them - Mobilcard today - the due date - and now and in the future I will hold payment on the last recieved if after due date!

Regards
Doug Hillary
Airlie Beach - Tropical North Queensland - Australia

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#586401 - 06/19/03 12:29 PM Re: 38k on delvac 1 in detroit diesel
sprintman Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 11006
Loc: Canberra ACT Australia
Hmm i think you shoul try Redline. Triple header road train in WA I know runs 90,000+ kms without change. Maybe more efficient $$ wise to do that.

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#586402 - 06/20/03 02:43 AM Re: 38k on delvac 1 in detroit diesel
Steve S Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 18449
Loc: East of IGO
Sprintman, how is the Redline working? Would you know if the oil anaylsis numbers are better than other oils ?

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#586403 - 06/20/03 10:21 AM Re: 38k on delvac 1 in detroit diesel
sprintman Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 11006
Loc: Canberra ACT Australia
You mean the RL I had in my Outback (still have the gear oils and ATF in?. Havn't done any UOA yet but Ive seen the reports from trucks here and very good indeed. Very expensive to buy here.

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#586404 - 06/20/03 07:31 PM Re: 38k on delvac 1 in detroit diesel
Steve S Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 18449
Loc: East of IGO
Sprintman , In the big trucks Ihave used Redline and I don't see much use in diesel engines ,I am at a point where syn oils in the engine may seen to not be worthit dollar wise,there seems to not be a big difference wear wise the Low temps where I live is -17f and the highest is 115f usually around 100f.

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#586405 - 06/21/03 02:44 AM Re: 38k on delvac 1 in detroit diesel
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4858
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,

Steve S

For me it all is a case of economics. With oil changes it is:

Oil cost + filter(s) cost + Labour + topup oil / OC cycle distance. And time off the road

In moving from a CH4 15w-40 to Delvac 1 5w-40 economics always figured. While we closely monitor fuel economy too, any improvement is impossible to factor in due to inconsistent use parameters, ambients, weather etc.

As well, starting a cold heavy engine with the lighter oil is easier on starter and batteries -cranking speed is higher too speeding combustion. Some of my trucks run from <-5C to +30C> in a 12 hour trip - in winter. High summer ambients here can be 40C>

Engine wear? Detroit say that 1 million miles on conforming mineral oil is common. On synthetics? - well the jury is probably still out. When we have done warranty work at 500000 miles ( on Delvac 1 ) however, original machining marks were still visible in the highly loaded camshaft area. And the engine was completely sludge free

I sell my trucks before 1 million miles too

Regards

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#586406 - 07/03/03 01:31 PM Re: 38k on delvac 1 in detroit diesel
GMCDURAMAX Offline


Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 37
Loc: HOUSTON
THANKS FOR THE INFO DOUG. MY TRUCK HAS A SPINNER II ON IT FOR SOOT CONTROL. I ALSO USED THE ELF 3998. I FINALLY FOUND THEM FOR A BETTER PRICE(BY THE CASE). I REFIGURED MY BREAK-EVEN POINT AND I THINK IT IS CLOSER TO 45000 MILES IF I DO IT MYSELF. ITS ALSO MUCH MORE CONVENIENT TO NOT HAVE TO MESS WITH IT AS OFTEN(ESPECIALLY WHEN ITS BUSY). THIS WAS MY FIRST CHANGE WITH SYNTHETIC AND I'VE HEARD THAT IT DIES FASTER BECAUSE IT CLEANS THE ENGINE. HOPEFULLY FUTURE FILLS WILL LAST LONGER.

YOU SAID YOU SELL THEM BEFORE 1 MILLION MILES. HAVE YOU EVER HAD HEAD PROBLEMS AROUND 800,000MILES. I TALKED TO A GUY THAT SAID HE ALWAYS HAS HEAD TROUBLE AROUND THAT MILEAGE. MINE HAS 850,000 NO PROBLEMS SO FAR(KNOCK ON WOOD). I ASSUME AUSTRAILIAN AND AMERICAN SERIES 60 MOTORS ARE THE SAME.

HOW HEAVY DO CAN YOU GROSS THERE. WE CAN ONLY GROSS AT 80,000 LBS. I'VE HEARD RUMORS THAT YOU CAN GROSS OVER 100,000 LBS AND DRIVE A LOT FASTER THAN OUR 70 MPH.

PLEASE EXUSE THE SPELLING. I JUST DOWNLOADED THE SPELL CHECK AND IT SAYS I HAVE TO RESTART BEFORE I CAN USE IT.

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#586407 - 07/04/03 06:29 AM Re: 38k on delvac 1 in detroit diesel
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4858
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
we gross 42500kg on a six axle truck and up to 130000 kg on road trains. Our legal speed limits are 62mph. Many trucks are quicker!!
My trucks are speed limited to 63mph as is required by law here

I have had a camshaft problem under warranty with three engines. Actually it was cam followers and soft cam lobes
I also retro-fitted waste gate turbos to mine too as the Australian variant of the 500hp engine initially had a non wastegate turbo. The wastegates are easier on the top end of this motor under load

I run Reefer freight between Brisbane,Sydney,Melbourne and Adelaide. The longest single "leg" is about 900 miles

Coolant management is vital too - check monthly!

The Spinner is a great addition and yes, the "clean up" by changing to a CH4 oil or Delvac 1 is very real. It will skew your initial test results

I will post some of my diesel results soon

Regards

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#586408 - 07/07/03 12:54 AM Re: 38k on delvac 1 in detroit diesel
V6 Diesel Offline


Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 144
Loc: Michigan, outside Lansing
"gross 42,500kg on a six axle truck and up to 130,000 kg on road trains"
Doug, That is a fair amount of weight, over 93,000lbs and for the road train over 286,000lbs. Is there much difference in wear rates for the trucks used for road trains compared to single trailer?

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#586409 - 07/07/03 05:53 AM Re: 38k on delvac 1 in detroit diesel
GMCDURAMAX Offline


Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 37
Loc: HOUSTON
THANKS V-6 DIESEL I HAD NO IDEA. (DARN THIS ENGLISH SYSTEM. WHY DON'T WE JUST LEARN THE METRIC SYSTEM LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.) THAT IS A LOT OF WEIGHT. I'VE GROSSED 103,000 BEFORE IN MY 5 AXLE(OOPS I SHOULDN'T HAVE SAID THAT), BUT I ONLY HAULED IT ONLY 5-10 MILES. I HAD ABOUT A ONE MILE STRETCH OF STRAIGHT ACCELERATION AND NEVER GOT OVER 45 MPH(ON THE FLOOR THE WHOLE WAY). AND AS FAR AS STOPPING, WELL YOU JUST BETTER PLAN AHEAD.

HOW MANY AXLES AND TRAILERS DO THE ROAD TRAINS HAVE? HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO STOP THEM? DO YOU HAVE DISK BRAKES? WE ARE STILL STUCK WITH DRUM BRAKES OVER HERE.EVEN THOUGH THE DISKS STOP A GOOD BIT FASTER THEY DO NOT HAVE A REDUNDANT SYSTEM SO THEY ARE NOT APPROVED IN THE U.S. NO TELLING HOW MANY ACCIDENTS THEY WOULD PREVENT OVER HERE THOUGH.

IF YOU'RE GETTING A MILLION MILES CONSISTENTLY IT MUST NOT EFFECT LONGEVITY VERY MUCH. THE SERIES 60 ARE JUST OVERBUILT LIKE A TRUCK SHOULD BE. MY 11.1 LITER IS SUPPOSED TO USE THE SAME BLOCK AS HIS 12.7 LITER ENGINE.

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#586410 - 07/08/03 03:02 PM Re: 38k on delvac 1 in detroit diesel
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4858
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
well,

Brakes
Disc brakes are now fitted to the front of most Euro trucks ( DAF, IVECO, BENZ, Volvo, Scania etc ). Disc brakes are now available on trailer axles ( BPW - German ) and will be very popular here
I first tried Kelsey-Hayes discs in the early 1980s but the poor pioneering technology meant poor performance too
Jacobs style engine brakes are universal here but noise is becoming a real problem and the Police are ( correctly ) issuing infringements with great effect! Euro trucks ( Volvo & Scania )have hydraulic retarders too

Life
Due to their lower gearing the road train tractor units work pretty well. The maximum geared speed allowed is 50 mph. Many "triples" tractive units are four axle ( 2 drive and some triple drive ) to enable traction from the greater applied weight on the unit. The road trains are only allowed on designated low volumn roads - many are gravel - which is very hard on drive tyres. The remote locations is another issue too. Many engines survive very well and I know of some old V10 Benzes that clocked over 2 million kms (1.2m miles ) in this work

Axles
The "standard" interstate trucks are 6 axled. Our "B" doubles are usually 9 axled. Road train "doubles" have 11 and "triples" have 17. We do have "quads" and these have 22

Heat
The main problem areas were diff and gearbox cooling. Synthetic oils have helped here over the years. All boxes and some diffs have coolers

Regards

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