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#586158 - 12/09/02 02:16 AM VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
Andy H Offline


Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 143
Loc: San Antonio
'96 VW Passat TDI 91777 miles
Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40, 9000 miles on oil
Stock engine, Oilguard bypass filter, OEM full-flow, OEM air filter
No filter changes during period
Primarily two 10-18 mile trips per day, 60-80 mph
Used 1 quart of oil, primarily crankcase breather
LAB: Oilmaster Oil Analysis June, 2002

code:
   
Aluminum 9
Chrome 28
Copper 13
Iron 55
Lead 5
Tin 5
Silicon 17
Potassium 10
Sodium 3
Water <.1
Oxidation 14.0
Visc@100C 14.0
Glycol 0
Fuel <2.0
TBN 8.2
SAE <5
Soot 1.5

What says the jury?

Andy

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#586159 - 12/09/02 02:43 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46739
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Fe and Cr relatively high.

Looks like oil held up OK....but those two metals bug me....why the Cr?

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#586160 - 12/09/02 03:29 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
Al Offline


Registered: 06/08/02
Posts: 13650
Loc: Elizabethtown, Pa
Yikes!-Holy Piston Rings (Cr) Batman [Eek!] . Yet the Pb is excellent. The silicon is higher but not to the extent I would think to produce the Iron/Cr readings. Do you have a piston slap?? BTW-I'm not an expert in this area.

I'm interested in this report because I'm planning on using this oil next in My Toy Gasoline Truck. Thanks

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#586161 - 12/09/02 05:23 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
Andy H Offline


Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 143
Loc: San Antonio
Yeah, the FE and Chrome bothered me a bit as well. This fill started in Srn Illinois in January, and ran thru the move to San Antonio and the South Texas summer.

The current fill is AMSOIL 15W-40 Diesel/marine, which has 5600 miles in it. I'm looking forward to comparing the numbers.

I was the second owner, it had a good history until 70K when I bought it. It runs strong, mileage is 40-42. Others with same model are getting higher mileage, tho.

The next fill will be Amsoil 5W-30, and I'm very close to swapping the Oilguard for an Amsoil bypass.

Thanks for the look!
Andy

[ December 09, 2002, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Andy H ]

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#586162 - 12/09/02 06:32 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
Toy4x4 Offline


Registered: 09/15/02
Posts: 970
Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
Andy H,
[Off Topic!] Why are you switching out the Oilguard? Any problems/concerns?

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#586163 - 12/09/02 06:42 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
Bio-T Offline



Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 5336
Loc: London, AR
quote:
Originally posted by Toy4x4:
Andy H,
[Off Topic!] Why are you switching out the Oilguard? Any problems/concerns?

An Amsoil Dealer running a competive product doesn't fare well with big Al. [Roll Eyes]

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#586164 - 12/09/02 06:56 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
Jay Offline


Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 1600
Loc: Arroyo Grande, CA
What is "SAE"?

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#586165 - 12/09/02 06:58 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
Andy H Offline


Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 143
Loc: San Antonio
59 Vetteman,

I'm pretty sure Al not only doesn't know who I am, but would sleep pretty well at night even if I filtered with a box of kleenex. [Smile] (Or...I'm in the military for the right to use anyone's bypass I choose?)

No problems with the Oilguard at all. The 96 TDI is a soot monster compared to the newer VWs and the AMSOIL filter has proven to do a better job with soot, as well as giving me the option of a larger filter for more dilution.

I've been waiting for the results of a bypass showdown on Fred's TDI club, but life has gotten in the way of good science again.

Andy

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#586166 - 12/09/02 07:01 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
Andy H Offline


Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 143
Loc: San Antonio
Jay,

I think it's Oilmaster's way of saying 'viscosity change'. I could easily be wrong, tho.

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#586167 - 12/09/02 07:24 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
Bio-T Offline



Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 5336
Loc: London, AR
quote:
Originally posted by Andy H:


I'm pretty sure Al not only doesn't know who I am, but would sleep pretty well at night even if I filtered with a box of kleenex. [Smile]

Andy,

I have paid my $20 to Big Al for to many years, and will expire this month for good. I had an Oil Guard bypass on my truck. It sure is a messy job trying to unscrew that ball of cotton. The Amsoil filters are a snap to change if you can mount them vertical.
[Patriot]

[Off Topic!]

I gave Uncle Sam 25 years before I decided I needed a new career.

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#586168 - 12/09/02 04:40 PM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
Andy H Offline


Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 143
Loc: San Antonio
'Morning,

[Off Topic!] I'm one year away from my latest career change. The Air Force has been great, but it's time for the next challenge. Something like fishing. [Smile]

I have my Oilguard mounted right behind the rad. When I spin-off the cover of the filter, I can lower it into the nest of coolant hoses and it will sit there and catch the drips...well, most of them. If I skip the latex glove, tho, the soot stays under my finger nails for a few days. [Roll Eyes]

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#586169 - 12/09/02 09:47 PM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
TooSlick Offline


Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 5785
Loc: Dixie
Andy,

Earlier TDI's that used 15w-40 petroleum oils for an extended period tended to develop stuck piston rings and clogged EGR valves. This is one of the primary reasons why VW put out two different Tech Services Bulletins in 1999 recommending the use of ONLY synthetic diesel oil for this engine.

I can tell by looking at the data that you have one of these affected engines - a normal chrome level for this engine is 2-4 ppm after 10,000 miles. I would drop the oil pan, pull the pistons and clean out the ring crevices if you really intend to keep this vehicle.

If you are lucky there is still some crosshatching on the affected cylinders, but there won't be for long at this rate! I've looked at over 100 TDI oil analyses - trust me on this one. The engine is on the way out if you don't correct this problem ASAP.

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#586170 - 12/10/02 01:26 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
sprintman Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 11006
Loc: Canberra ACT Australia
Andy
You should give Delvac 1 a go in that engine. Most TDI owners use it now I hear. Several people here have found it for $10 gallon if I remember correctly, obviously mispriced.

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#586171 - 12/10/02 02:49 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
Greg Offline


Registered: 07/20/02
Posts: 371
Loc: Port Colborne, ON
quote:
Originally posted by Jay:
What is "SAE"?

society of automotive engineers

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#586172 - 12/10/02 02:56 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
Al Offline


Registered: 06/08/02
Posts: 13650
Loc: Elizabethtown, Pa
quote:
Originally posted by sprintman:
Andy
You should give Delvac 1 a go in that engine. Most TDI owners use it now I hear. Several people here have found it for $10 gallon if I remember correctly, obviously mispriced.

Normally Delvac 1 is $22.50. Good information TooSlick. I wonder what the risk of rings sticking in general on 30 wt. vs 40 wt. ?

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#586173 - 12/10/02 03:10 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
TooSlick Offline


Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 5785
Loc: Dixie
Al,

Not really an issue of viscosity, but rather thermal decomposition of the oil in the area of the upper piston ring. This engine is designed with a small "crevice volume" and the upper ring is in a very hot zone. Conventional oils tend to coke in the ring grooves and the rings stick. This is when you start to see elevated levels of both Cr and Fe in the analysis. You really want the PAO based synthetic in this particular application.

You can't fix this one simply by changing to a synthetic oil once it has started. You need to take the engine down and do it the right way. I have seen several cases where the Cr and Fe levels dropped a bit after synthetic was used for an extended period, so perhaps some of these deposits were loosened up, but it's a halfway measure.

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#586174 - 12/10/02 03:39 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
Al Offline


Registered: 06/08/02
Posts: 13650
Loc: Elizabethtown, Pa
Thanks [Smile]

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#586175 - 12/10/02 05:10 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
Andy H Offline


Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 143
Loc: San Antonio
Thanks for the words, TooSlick.

I don't know what the first owner used for oil. It was a VW lease, so I hope he at least used the Syntec from the stealership.

I used Mobil 1 and the Valvoline semi-synth for the first 4K changes after I bought it. Once I digested enough of the oil info on Fred's I switched to the AMSOIL.

I pulled the intake manifold right after I bought the car and cleaned it out. It was almost 60% blocked. The clogged intake had masked that the MAF had failed. I certainly wish I had this car from new...

I've got 6K on the current oil, I'll get some to the lab this week. And it looks like I'll be ordering a pan gasket...

Thanks Al and Sprintman for the Delvac 1 info. I can get the AMSOIL for less and I'm really looking forward to running the 5W-30.

(digging around...let's see..I got a 10mm socket here somewhere...) [Frown]

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#586176 - 12/10/02 02:00 PM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
jjbula Offline


Registered: 07/04/02
Posts: 479
Loc: Montgomery, AL
quote:
Originally posted by TooSlick:
Al,

You can't fix this one simply by changing to a synthetic oil once it has started. You need to take the engine down and do it the right way. I have seen several cases where the Cr and Fe levels dropped a bit after synthetic was used for an extended period, so perhaps some of these deposits were loosened up, but it's a halfway measure.

I'm not trying to push this stuff, I'm just thinking of buying a used TDI and am curious about your opinion. Would Auto-RX or another proven cleaner do the job without a teardown?

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#586177 - 12/10/02 10:12 PM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
TooSlick Offline


Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 5785
Loc: Dixie
JJBULA,

I was just thinking that it would be worth it for Andy to try the AutoRX in this TDI engine. I'd run it in there with 4 quarts of a 15w-40 petroleum based diesel oil like Delvac 1300. Run it for 500 miles; change the filter, topoff the crankcase and run another 500 miles before doing a total change.

It's worth a shot for $25.00 and may reduce the problem to a managable level.

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#586178 - 12/11/02 02:37 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
sprintman Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 11006
Loc: Canberra ACT Australia
TooSlick, my thoughts exactly. Gotta be worth doing IMO.

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#586179 - 12/13/02 06:55 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
TexasTDI Offline


Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 371
Loc: TYLER, TEXAS
quote:
Originally posted by sprintman:
Andy
You should give Delvac 1 a go in that engine. Most TDI owners use it now I hear. Several people here have found it for $10 gallon if I remember correctly, obviously mispriced.

Delvac-1 doesn't meet VW 505 specs, Amsoil does. [Big Grin]

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#586180 - 12/13/02 06:59 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
TexasTDI Offline


Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 371
Loc: TYLER, TEXAS
quote:
Originally posted by Andy H:
The current fill is AMSOIL 15W-40 Diesel/marine, which has 5600 miles in it. I'm looking forward to comparing the numbers.



I'm also using Amsoil 15w-40 in my 2000 Golf 1.9TDI and my 1991 Jetta 1.6 Diesel. [Big Grin]

quote:
The next fill will be Amsoil 5W-30....
Series 3000 I hope. [Wink]

I'll be switching to Series 3000 5w-30 at my TDI's next oil change as well. [Cool]

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#586181 - 12/18/02 08:52 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
Andy H Offline


Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 143
Loc: San Antonio
Hi All,

Chris, of course Series 3000! I got my bypass filter in the mail today as well. I'll do the oil and flushing and bypass change sometime this holiday break.

TooSlick and jjbula - What's AutoRX? Some type of flush? I thought of using a flush in the oil and maybe drizzling some in thru the intake valves and letting it soak down. Not sure how effective that would be. [I dont know]

I'm not sure if the rings would seat again if I pulled the bottom off and reinstalled the pistons...then all the "as long as I'm in here's" started calling...by the time I was done with my mental exercise, I had a fresh overhaul. [Roll Eyes]

I sent an oil sample to the lab last week and will take a look before the next step.

To be continued, me thinks...

Merry Christmas all,
Andy

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#586182 - 12/18/02 09:31 AM Re: VW Passat TDI Rotella T Synthetic
Giles Offline


Registered: 12/02/02
Posts: 403
Loc: California
Consider Lube Control and Fuel Power for cleaning the engine.

Here's some links of interest:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000106#000025

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000112#000003

I ordered some and will be giving it a try.

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