Tower strut bars (brace) worth it?
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I haven't seen any documentation that shows cars handling better, or different at all, with strut braces. If someone can come up with valid segment times, slalom speeds, etc, I'll agree they can make a real difference.
I believe there's no validity to someone thinking he feels a difference. In that case we'd have to believe all the folks who swear a K&N added 20 hp, and those who stick huge spoilers on their Civics and swear it handles so much better. If someone like David Murry drives a car back-to-back and says it makes an actual diference, I'll believe it.
I'm going on ad naseum, I guess, because it bothers me to see a lot of people spending money on stuff that's not real (I don't mean just strut bars and spoilers - also the oil additives, gas treatments, etc etc that are the phony ones) and others making the money by selling stuff that they know in phony.
Just a few comments -
Moribundman, fair enough, TUV isn't the law itself, it's one of the government agencies that implements the laws that prohibit non governent approved modifications.
Ex-MGB (btw, I had more fun in the MBG I had many years ago than in maybe any car I've ever had), Mazda and pretty much all other car makers spend tons of money on features that serve no function other than visual. Witness all the spoilers, some huge, and side skirts that are on a great many street cars. Most serve no function. Strut bars have become a fashion accessory, much like spoilers and oversize wheels have. I think it's very possible that Mazda put it on for show.
ikeepmychevy - just curious, by MB camber change, I think you're referring to the swing axles that were used? They were a way to achieve independent suspension, though very poorly, with a simple design. Horrible camber changes. See also the Beetle and Corvair...similar principle, no outer cv joints required.
I believe there's no validity to someone thinking he feels a difference. In that case we'd have to believe all the folks who swear a K&N added 20 hp, and those who stick huge spoilers on their Civics and swear it handles so much better. If someone like David Murry drives a car back-to-back and says it makes an actual diference, I'll believe it.
I'm going on ad naseum, I guess, because it bothers me to see a lot of people spending money on stuff that's not real (I don't mean just strut bars and spoilers - also the oil additives, gas treatments, etc etc that are the phony ones) and others making the money by selling stuff that they know in phony.
Just a few comments -
Moribundman, fair enough, TUV isn't the law itself, it's one of the government agencies that implements the laws that prohibit non governent approved modifications.
Ex-MGB (btw, I had more fun in the MBG I had many years ago than in maybe any car I've ever had), Mazda and pretty much all other car makers spend tons of money on features that serve no function other than visual. Witness all the spoilers, some huge, and side skirts that are on a great many street cars. Most serve no function. Strut bars have become a fashion accessory, much like spoilers and oversize wheels have. I think it's very possible that Mazda put it on for show.
ikeepmychevy - just curious, by MB camber change, I think you're referring to the swing axles that were used? They were a way to achieve independent suspension, though very poorly, with a simple design. Horrible camber changes. See also the Beetle and Corvair...similar principle, no outer cv joints required.
pmwalter, you mentioned in your original post that you were seeking a better ride. I took that to mean something quite different from better handling. All the above squabbling aside, a strut brace can normally be expected to have either no impact on ride quality, or else a negative impact on ride quality because it (potentially) eliminates compliance.
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Instead of going on "ad naseum" (sic, hee-hee!) I'll admit to being a ******* idiot who's generally a victim of the placebo effect.
PS: Your definition of TÜV is still wrong. For example, the TÜV is not a government agency. In fact, each German state has its own TÜV. The TÜV is an INDEPENDENT EU-notified service organization that provides testing and certification for various industries. TÜV America is a subsidiary of TÜV Süd, which is the international version of TÜV.
http://www.tuvamerica.com/home.cfm
PS: Your definition of TÜV is still wrong. For example, the TÜV is not a government agency. In fact, each German state has its own TÜV. The TÜV is an INDEPENDENT EU-notified service organization that provides testing and certification for various industries. TÜV America is a subsidiary of TÜV Süd, which is the international version of TÜV.
http://www.tuvamerica.com/home.cfm
Hmmm...well, I guess I'll jump into the fire.
I've been using IPD chassis braces(upper/lower) on my Volvo 245 for about 2yrs. My intentions were add them as a safety improvement more than a performance upgrade. The braces are a reproduction of an original OE design used on the 242GTs in the early `80s. They're not a typical tower-to-tower design. The upper braces link the upper strut tower to the firewall and the lowers link the subframe to the chassis floor.
No placebos needed here. The difference was instantly noticeable the 1st time I drove the car with the bars installed. The increased rigidity can easily be felt while driving over a speed bump @ low speeds. The entire front feels much more solid(aka:lifts more uniformly) as each axle goes over the bump. They've also reduced the amount of steering correction normally required in long, sweeping turns @ higher speeds.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are many brace kits out there that offer more bling than zing. But in my case, an inexpensive set of steel bars made a nice difference in handling.
[ January 09, 2006, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Brikhead ]
I've been using IPD chassis braces(upper/lower) on my Volvo 245 for about 2yrs. My intentions were add them as a safety improvement more than a performance upgrade. The braces are a reproduction of an original OE design used on the 242GTs in the early `80s. They're not a typical tower-to-tower design. The upper braces link the upper strut tower to the firewall and the lowers link the subframe to the chassis floor.
No placebos needed here. The difference was instantly noticeable the 1st time I drove the car with the bars installed. The increased rigidity can easily be felt while driving over a speed bump @ low speeds. The entire front feels much more solid(aka:lifts more uniformly) as each axle goes over the bump. They've also reduced the amount of steering correction normally required in long, sweeping turns @ higher speeds.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are many brace kits out there that offer more bling than zing. But in my case, an inexpensive set of steel bars made a nice difference in handling.
[ January 09, 2006, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Brikhead ]
Some cars need it, some are stiff without.
Many auto-Xers have tested them on the Mark IV Golf/Jetta platfom and have noticed zero affect. Nothing that is measurable, no improvement. And things like chassis deflection was also tested. Still no improvement. On this chassis.
Other cars will be different, especially if the chassis isn't stiff.
Many auto-Xers have tested them on the Mark IV Golf/Jetta platfom and have noticed zero affect. Nothing that is measurable, no improvement. And things like chassis deflection was also tested. Still no improvement. On this chassis.
Other cars will be different, especially if the chassis isn't stiff.
Moribundman, thanks for the corrections!
BTW, you have truly impeccable taste in cars ;-)
BTW, you have truly impeccable taste in cars ;-)
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Yes, Audity, when I was an 18 year old kid, a used VW Scirocco was as close to my dream car as any that I could afford! With my "impeccable taste" I still love most of the origami designs by Giorgetto Giugiaro:
- VW Scirocco Mark I
- BMW M1
- Lotus Esprit
- Lancia Delta
- DeLorean DMC-12
et al.
Trust me, many cars, then and now, can benefit from tower strut braces and stabilizer bars. For example, the B6 platform has a 50% (I think) stiffer chassis than the B5. I've driven a B7, and while I think it drives like a fat cow compared to a B5, the B7's body has torsional stiffness that the B5 can only dream of! While you may not notice any difference, someone else well may notice quite a change between vehicles, depending on modification. Of course, you gotta drive them accordingly...
- VW Scirocco Mark I
- BMW M1
- Lotus Esprit
- Lancia Delta
- DeLorean DMC-12
et al.
Trust me, many cars, then and now, can benefit from tower strut braces and stabilizer bars. For example, the B6 platform has a 50% (I think) stiffer chassis than the B5. I've driven a B7, and while I think it drives like a fat cow compared to a B5, the B7's body has torsional stiffness that the B5 can only dream of! While you may not notice any difference, someone else well may notice quite a change between vehicles, depending on modification. Of course, you gotta drive them accordingly...
My 95 stang came with one from factory, it had to be removed due to the CObra intake being taller. I can honestly say it did not make a difference at all being removed. Sub-frame connectors made a huge improvment though. Full lenght weld-in SF are what you would feel imho.
Audity - I agree with you on the placebo effect of many of the items you mention, but as far as how flimsy some cars are or are not... many manufacturers claim that this year's model is x%(some high percentages) more rigid than the previous one and leads to improved handling. I test drove a Corolla XRS, and it had a Yamaha Sport Strut Tower Brace and it was indeed firm handling....(also had 164hp @ 7600 rpm and a redline of 8200 rpm! hows that for a Corolla?). When they claim how much more rigid this model is verses the previous one, I wonder how they measure it????
A strut brace can improve the cornering, but not the straight ahead driveability. Two things to consider. 1/ There is differing quality of braces and 2/ Go for an adjustable brace and put it on as per instructions. If it is not put on properly or it flexes ( cheap brace) then it is not going to work as well as it should.
However, if you don't drive hard around corners then don't bother. Other ungrades such as shocks and springs, plus rubber replacement will do more. The braces would be the last thing to do. If you have done more than 30-50k on the car it is time for replacement.
Have fitted both front and rear braces to my son sports car. Even the the suspension on it was fairly advanced and modified they did make a difference.
Whilst on the subject of braces. A brake cylinder brace can make the braking much firmer.
However, if you don't drive hard around corners then don't bother. Other ungrades such as shocks and springs, plus rubber replacement will do more. The braces would be the last thing to do. If you have done more than 30-50k on the car it is time for replacement.
Have fitted both front and rear braces to my son sports car. Even the the suspension on it was fairly advanced and modified they did make a difference.
Whilst on the subject of braces. A brake cylinder brace can make the braking much firmer.
>When they claim how much more rigid this model is verses the previous one, I wonder how they measure it???
The marketing department hounds the the engineering department until they run a finite element stress analysis program on the computer model of both cars. But also, the engineering department will have targets for improvements in bending and torsional rigidity and natural frequency, which go hand in hand with crash worthiness and other vehicle dynamics.
The marketing department hounds the the engineering department until they run a finite element stress analysis program on the computer model of both cars. But also, the engineering department will have targets for improvements in bending and torsional rigidity and natural frequency, which go hand in hand with crash worthiness and other vehicle dynamics.
Tosh - sounds like you been there, done that! Thanks......
Kestas
Staff member
I understand they actually measure a car's regidity by twisting the assembled car. It's a quantifiable result that gives you a number with units of degrees per foot-pound.
Finite element analysis sounds like the more difficult way to measure rigidity.
Finite element analysis sounds like the more difficult way to measure rigidity.
I improved cornering by changing the struts/springs/bushings/bars......
The only thing that my strut braces did were to improve the 'feeling', get rid of a little flex.......
IMO, all cars are built for crash worthiness which makes them flex regardless how strong the automakers says it is.
Improve your suspension if you want it to handle better. Improve your chasis rigidity if it can't take the stress of your new suspension.
The only thing that my strut braces did were to improve the 'feeling', get rid of a little flex.......
IMO, all cars are built for crash worthiness which makes them flex regardless how strong the automakers says it is.
Improve your suspension if you want it to handle better. Improve your chasis rigidity if it can't take the stress of your new suspension.
Another thing to consider is what happens in a crash (hopefully you only think about this!). Modern cars are designed to crumple in a specific way to absorb energy. Adding a good strut bar to stiffen the chassis can alter this and result in higher occupant loads. That said, a well setup chassis may help you avoid that accident.
Just something else to ponder...
Just something else to ponder...
Kestas: No doubt they have methods to calibrate computer-predicted numbers with real world testing. Even to the point of actually bending or twisting an assembled car. An automaker would definitely have the resources to run this test. But nowadays FEA is pretty routine if you have a computer model of something you're designing but haven't built yet. But as with any computer program, GIGO!
UnDummy: Body flexing (springiness) during turns is different from deformable crumple zones absorbing energy in an impact.
CG: Intuitively, I imagine a strut brace has mostly positive effects in distributing energy in an accident, especially considering the direction it's mounted.
UnDummy: Body flexing (springiness) during turns is different from deformable crumple zones absorbing energy in an impact.
CG: Intuitively, I imagine a strut brace has mostly positive effects in distributing energy in an accident, especially considering the direction it's mounted.
I guess it depends on the car. With the Ford Focus, the strut towers are so close to the firewall that you figure a brace would do next to nothing. Maybe it would keep things in place over years of driving. But for the most part everyone says it's useful when you need something to lean on when working under the hood.
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