Anyone ever diagnosed coolant electrolysis cause?

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Pretty sure I got a bad case of it. But am struggling to find the source of the stray electrical source. I've gone thru 3 radiators in 10 years and just finished installing the 4th one in my '95 Club Wagon. The old coolant's voltage came in at 0.3 volts. I've got lots of info that describes the problem and how to turn electrical components on/off one at a time to see a voltage spike, but I haven't been able to detect any yet.

Has anyone actually diagnosed and found the cause of coolant electrolysis?
 
May be I didn't get it right but with different metals for block and radiator the usual wear and corrosion gets amplificated as galvanic corrosion, and the effect is greater at the radiator where the heat is taken away. Is there enough antifreeze to keep the initial corrosion minimum?
 
have you tried the sacrificial piece of magnesuim in the radiator? i have seen it done in tractors to combat the same problem.
 
Can you put a voltmeter between the block and radiator metal, while the engine is running, maybe with the hadlights on? and then repeat with everything off? Also measure between the frame and block, engine running and not. I've never dealth with this, but remember that a positive electrode tends to corrode.

Also, with the engine off, check with an ohmmeter if there is a connection between the radiator metal and the block.
 
I've tried just about everything you've mentioned, except the sacrificial mag or zinc metal (I know some water heaters use this approach). All the engine and body grounds I tested were good. The milivoltage difference when I test various elecrtical components is so small, I suspect I'm not getting anything other than normal noise. I even visited the local radiator repair shop to see if they knew of someone skilled at diagnosing electrolysis in town. The guy just smiled and said, "Yeah, those vans are hard on radiators."
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So I'm left wondering if anyone has ever successfully done this!?!

My local Ford dealer insists I need to ground the heater core, but I want to eliminate the source of the current, not mask the problem.
 
what would grounding the heater core do?

the engine is grounded. assuming the antifreeze mix is conducting electricity, then the heater core should automatically be grounded by the coolant which flows into the metal engine and also the metal heater core. if you had poor grounds thet are eroded out to the point where the engine is trying to ground through the antifreeze in the heater core, then i could maybe see this happening, but by that time i doubt youre car would start.

one way to tell if you are getting electrolisys is to open up the cooling system and inspect the radiator, heater core, and engine block for plating. 1 of those 3 items will be very clean, becuse the metal is being wisked away to be plated into another item. sence you say it is the radiator which fails, see if you can look down one of the radiator passages for a rough erosion look. almost like the metal was sand blasted. it would be very clean but very rough.

if this was really happening, then the radiator should be eroding away and its metal would be deposited elsewhere, maybe into the engine passages, or maybe the heater core.

i still doubt this happens though. you need a strong electrolyte for electroplating to happen. it just doesnt happen with antifreeze. think of how saltwater outboards have that zinc anode, yet freshwater outboards dont have it.

did anyone see the mythbusters episode where they dealt with electrolisys? it took them 100 days to dissolve a 1 inchn thick iron bar using a transformer out of a big radio and salsa for electrolyte.

bottom line, check youre engine and battery grounds. if you are really convenced you are still having electrolisys and its keeping you awake, then run a little wire from the heater core to a ground. and one from the radiator to a ground.

you cant really do any more than that.
 
quote:

Contrary to popular belief, water does not conduct electricity, the trash in water does.

Don't test this using a light socket standing in a bath tub!

Pure H2O does conduct electricity, but very very poorly. Add some salt and it conducts GREAT.
 
Roger asks: "Has anyone actually diagnosed and found the cause of coolant electrolysis?"

You don't need to find an obvious direct source of electricity. The car and coolant and radiator can actually combine to form its own battery. As Larry Carley points out in this article: "Repeated heater core failures in some vehicles is almost always due to electrolysis from poor grounding."

It is often easier to shotgun the problem with a handful of heavy duty braided ground straps. Ground the block to radiator. Ground the heater cores to the frame. Ground the block to the frame. Ground the body to the block. Ground the body to the frame. Etc., etc., etc. You want to explicitly ensure good ground paths between all the different sub-assemblies of the car. Just assume that all the ground paths are poor, and you are going to fix them all.

Also, some cars have a central grounding point for all the small lights and accessories. This is sometimes a big bolt or sheet metal screw where all the grounding wires attach. It is often located under the trim panel by the driver's left foot. It's possible that this central accessory grounding point is nothing more than big sheet metal screw which becomes loose over time, or even stripped out by the moron radio installer guy at Best Buy.

After you implement your fixes, you can monitor the coolant voltage as part of your routine maintenance. This will help ensure that you really did fix the problem, and it will allow you to catch it early if it crops up again.
 
Do NOT ground the radiator or the heater core,and if they are grounded, un-ground them.

I just measured the voltage from ground, on my car:

radiator: -0.15
radiator cap: +0.45
block: 0.0

They would have to be electrically isolated to prevent the flow of current which causes corrosion.

I also put a piece of aluminum foil and an iron nail in water with baking soda added. I got about 0.4 volts, with the aluminum being negative.

As long as no current flows between those voltages, no corrosion will happen.
 
I have been told to measure with the + probe in the radiator liquid and the - probe on the main ground. Below .5 v is supposed to be ok and .7 or over is supposed to be bad (for the radiator). I notice that the ph of Dexcool tends to lower with time and that when it does the voltage goes up. I usually run .115 to .145 if I keep the ph 8-9 (7 is neutral). If the ph drops below 7 (acidic) the voltage goes up. For the record, my aluminum radiator is one of the few things that I have not had trouble with so far.
 
I'm curious about the questions & advice to NOT ground the radiator. If there is a voltage potential between the two and the coolant mix is conductive, doesn't that complete the circuit and cause current to flow inside the cooling system? If you ground both the engine and radiator to the frame/body, shouldn't it remove any voltage potential between the engine and radiator and therefore prevent current flow through the cooling system? And wouldn't that stop the electrolysis?
 
It's like a battery. There's a voltage between the terminals, but nothing happens. When you connect them, a current flows and the battery wears out.
 
In my case, the radiator is all metal, attached to a large metal brace that bolts directly to the front frame. Couldn't ask for it to be better grounded than that. Frankly, I'm wondering if I should use nylon bolts to attach the radiator and put a rubber pad between the radiator and front frame to break the radiator ground. Battery to body, and to engine ground is great. I only use distilled water too.

The only noticeable change in coolant voltage that I got was when I turned on the a/c or heater fan. So I grounded the heater fan. That's it. Ford's TSB says to ground the heater core for repeated heater core failures, but I'm not sure it will stop repeated radiator failures. In my case the seams always leaked thru on the corners.... coincidentally....next to the bolts that attach (and ground) the radiator to the frame.
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[ December 24, 2005, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: Roger ]
 
quote:Have you tried to use distilled water in the radiator with the anti freeze. Tap water conducts electricity, distilled water does not.

Izzat so?

Zat is very so. Contrary to popular belief, water does not conduct electricity, the trash in water does. Tap water has metals in it that will conduct electricity while distilled water does not. I used to sell a water softner and this was one of the tests done at the customers house using a light bulb with a cord that plugged into the wall and a prong on the end of it, if you put it in tap water it completes the circuit and lights up and dosent in distilled water. When the heater core started leaking in my pick up, I went to Ford and bought a new one and asked what caused it and all of the dealers I consulted was unanimous in saying that if you used distilled water it wouldnt happen, they couldnt explain why, than when I researched it and found that the pitting metal was caused by electricity, it all made sense. This is also why you are supposed to use distilled water in a battery.
 
Roger:

Has anyone actually diagnosed and found the cause of coolant electrolysis?
So I'm left wondering if anyone has ever successfully done this!?!

I am in marine engineering and have studied corrosion some what, but can not answer your question.
Other people make a living with corrosion.
I like to go to this site.

http://www.eng-tips.com/threadarea.cfm

You will likely have to sign up to get into the forum but it is a wealth of knowledge.

I am interested in this corrosion problem so if you dont mind, let me know where in the engineering forum you post your question so I may follow it. If you do not wish to do this then it is OK.

There are many different spots on the site where a question like this would fit in. You may want to try several.

Thank you for the interesting question.
 
Quote from:

http://www.assda.asn.au/asp/index.asp?pgid=18533

"Galvanic corrosion can only occur if the dissimilar metals are in electrical contact. The contact may be direct or by an external pipe or wire or bolt. If the dissimilar metals are insulated from each other by suitable plastic strips, washers or sleeves then galvanic corrosion cannot occur. Paint is not a reliable separator from direct contact although painting all of the noble metal is quite effective. Painting the active metal causes drill holes at coating defects."


If others had this problem then could be an engineering problem.
What kind of metals are there?
What kind of coolant do you use?
 
It also depends on the pH of the coolant.

I'm trying an experiment with aluminum foil and iron nails, but I think I added too much washing soda and made the pH too high, because the foil is bubbling a lot in both jars. In the jar where the foil is touching the nail, the nail is also bubbling. I should repeat this with an antifreeze solution.
 
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