Extended emissions warranty for Civic denied

[surfstar]

I have a 96 Civic with a cracked exhaust manifold. The extended warranty on emissions related equipment is 14yr/150k miles. I'm covered...NOT! Although the service bulliten says that "any emissions related equipment fails" as part of the qualification, they claim that I'm not covered as the MIL is not on! I have an exhaust leak that is letting out non-catalyzed exhaust and b/c my MIL light is not on they don't consider it emissions related?

bulletin
That is the service bulletin. Page 1: "File a claim under the extension if: any emissions-related component fails."

I got the same answer from the 1-800 Honda customer service line, too.

 

[AcuraTech]

Another example of policy prevailing over common sense. And yet we once replaced a transmission under extended emissions warranty because the MIL was on, figure that one out.

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, I would probably say that the failure of an emission component would require its ability to manage or process to be compromised. Anything that processes or manages is apparently working well.

I'm not siding with them per se` ..just pointing out that your same argument would apply if the exhaust pipe developed a hole in it just upstream of the catalytic converter (although your cat may be right off of the manifold/header). The pipe itself isn't considered an emissions control component. Otherwise a hole in your valve cover would qualify (blow by managment integrity) ..your fresh air ducting (ingress air for blow by managment)..etc..etc..

Now if the manifold/header has a high incidence of failure ..then they should replace it since it was a defective design in the form of a recall.

 

[john_ertw]

Have you had your vehicle serviced at that dealer regularly. I know it should not have an effect on warranty, but sometimes loyal customers receive more 'goodwill' on issues like this.

 

[ChrisW]

you could make the light come on....

 

[Dark Jedi]

ok found this in a search hope this helps you understand better

What Emission Control and Emission Related Parts Are Covered by The
Design and Defect Warranty?

An emission control part is any part installed with the primary
purpose of controlling emissions. An emission related part is any
part that has an effect on emissions. Listed below are some examples
of parts or systems which fall under these definitions. A more
complete list can be found in your owner's manual/warranty booklet.
If any of the parts listed below fail to function or function
improperly because of a defect in materials or workmanship, causing
your vehicle to exceed federal emission standards, they should be
repaired or replaced under the emissions warranty if your vehicle is
less than 2 years old and has been driven less than 24,000 miles. One
manufacturer may use more parts than another, so the following list is
not complete for all vehicles.


EMISSION CONTROL PARTS

Exhaust Gas Conversion Systems

oxygen sensor thermal reactor
catalytic converter dual-walled exhaust pipe

Exhaust Gas Recirculation System

EGR valve thermal vacuum switch
EGR solenoid EGR spacer plate
EGR backpressure transducer Sensor and switches use to
control EGR flow

Evaporative Emission Control System

purge valve fuel filler cap
purge solenoid vapor storage canister and filter

Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) System

PCV valve PCV solenoid

Air Injection System

Air pump diverter, bypass, or gulp valve
reed valve anti-backfire or deceleration valve

Early Fuel Evaporative (EFE) System

EFE valve thermal vacuum switch
heat riser valve

Fuel Metering System

electronic control module (unit) or EFI air flow meter, computer
command module or mixture control unit, deceleration controls,
electronic choke, fuel injectors, fuel injection units and fuel
altitude compensator sensor, bars or rails for EFI or TBI systems,
mixture settings on sealed fuel mixture control solenoid, diaphragm
or other systems, fuel metering components that achieve closed/other
feedback control sensors/loop operation switches and valves

Air Induction System

thermostatically controlled air cleaner, air box

Ignition Systems

electronic spark advance timing advance/retard systems,
high energy electronic ignition

Miscellaneous Parts

hoses, gaskets, brackets, clamps and other accessories used in the
above systems


EMISSION RELATED PARTS

These are examples of other parts of your vehicle which have a
primary purpose other than emissions control but which nevertheless
have significant effects on your vehicle's emissions. If any of these
parts fail to function or function improperly, your vehicle's
emissions may exceed federal standards. Therefore, when any of the
parts of the following systems are defective in materials or
workmanship and have failed in a way that would be likely to cause
your vehicle's emissions to exceed federal standards, they should be
repaired or replaced under the emissions warranty:

Fuel Injection System

fuel distributor

Air Induction System

turbocharger intake manifold

Exhaust System

exhaust manifold

Ignition System

distributor spark plugs
ignition wires and coil

Miscellaneous Parts

hoses, gaskets, brackets, clamps, and other accessories used in
the above systems.


What Are Specified Major Emission Control Components?

There are three specified major emission control components,
covered for the first 8 years or 80,000 miles of vehicle use on 1995
and newer vehicles:

* Catalytic converters.

* The electronic emissions control unit or computer (ECU).

* The onboard emissions diagnostic device or computer (OBD).

Catalytic converters are critical emission control components
that have been installed on most cars and trucks manufactured since
1975. Since engines don't burn fuel completely during the combustion
process, the exhaust contains a significant amount of harmful
pollutants such as carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons, and oxides of
nitrogen. The catalytic converter aids the conversion of these
pollutants to less harmful substances such as carbon dioxide, water
vapor, nitrogen, and oxygen before the exhaust is expelled into the
environment.

The electronic emissions control unit or computer monitors
certain powertrain functions and controls various operating parameters
to help the vehicle run efficiently and with the lowest possible
emissions. Ignition, transmission function, air injection, exhaust
gas recirculation (EGR), engine operating temperature and fuel system
parameters are some of the systems monitored and/or controlled by the
electronic emissions control unit.

The onboard emissions diagnostic device monitors the operation of
a vehicle's emission control system and alerts the driver with a
dashboard light when malfunctions occur. The system will record where
the problem is occurring and assist automotive technicians in
diagnosing and repairing emission control malfunctions. Since some
emission control malfunctions do not have an adverse effect on vehicle
performance, they can go undetected by the driver for quite some time.
The onboard diagnostic device will help catch malfunctions early,
preventing a significant output of harmful exhaust emissions from your
vehicle, and possibly in time to be covered by the emissions control
warranty. Often this "device" is part of the electronic control unit
mentioned above.

In the future, there may be other parts or components that
qualify for this coverage. Check your owner's manual or warranty book
for possible additional coverage.


How Long Do the Emissions Warranties Apply to Individual Parts of My
Vehicle?

For 1995 and newer model year vehicles, emission control and
emission related parts are warranted for the first 2 years or 24,000
miles of vehicle use. Specified major emission-control components are
warranted for the first 8 years or 80,000 miles of vehicle use.

Parts with a stated replacement interval, such as, "replace at
15,000 miles or 12 months," are warranted up to the first replacement
point only.


so going by this honda is right not covering your exhaust manifold under the emmissions warranty. your manifold isnt a major emission-control components that is covered under the 8 year 80K miles or in the case of your honda 14 years 150K miles.

 

[Dark Jedi]

also found this too

The covered parts are essentially the same as those shown in the proceeding sample lists. This is the short-term Emissions Defect Warranty. The California regulations also require a long-term Emissions Defect Warranty. From 1990 and later, the long-term warranty lasts for seven years or 70,000 miles (112,000km), whichever comes first. Here is a sample list of the covered components:

Catalytic Converter
Ignition Distributor
Exhaust Manifold(s)
Fuel Injection Rail Assembly
Fuel Injector
Fuel Injector Supply Manifold
Fuel Sensor(1)
Fuel Tank
Idle Air Control Valve
Injector Driver Module
Intake Manifold
Intercooler
Powertrain Control Module(PCM)
Supercharger
Synchronizer Assembly
Throttle Body Assembly
Transducer Assembly
Turbocharger Assembly
Three-Way Catalyst (TWC) Air Control Valve
Volume Air Flow Sensor


but beings your vehicle is 9+ years old this version is no longer good for you. beings the part is 9+ years old they will say age was the reason of the part failure and not manufactering defect.

 

[Master ACiD]

surfstar, make an appointment to see the dealer about youre defective manifold. tell them the mil came on.
before going to the dealer, disconnect the primary oxygen sensor's wire (its just a quick disconnect plug and is very easy no tools required). this sould trigger the mil and throw some codes out. right before you get to the dealer, pull over and reconnect the o2 sensor's plug in. again, no tools required.

also, i would complain about this. that isnt very honda like. honda normally takes good care of its customers. i dont know if its the dealer being a jerk or what but i wouldnt put up with that.

 

[vizvo]

hey surfstar,

quote:

---

I have a 96 Civic with a cracked exhaust manifold

---

Any breech of the exhaust system upstream of the oxygen sensor is a major cause for concern.

Air leaking into the system upstream of the O2 sensor will cause the sensor to telegraph a false lean condition. Your PCM will enrich the mixture. The excess HC will find its way into the catalytic converter, and it will shorten its life--a very expensive repair.

Maybe you can make that case to the service manager. And any competent emissions tech will know that a leak in the exhaust manifold can lead to more expensive trouble down the road. For all parties concerned it would be better to fix the problem now before it causes a domino effect.

If they won't handle it, then my advice is for you to go to an independent welding shop and ask them to weld up the crack. Depending on where the crack is, and on how large it is, a mom and pop welding shop should be able to weld it up for about 20 or 30 bucks, give or take (if the manifold doesn't have to be removed).

 

[ChrisW]

do you have the manifold with the built in cat converter? if so, they are known to crack from where the O2 sensor goes.

 

[robbobster]

You can also file a complaint with the CA Air Resources Board

www.arb.ca.gov

 

[surfstar]

Master Acid, I have already thought that I would "convince" the MIL to come on and then they should replace it without question. Might have to try that. I just don't get how the warranty covers "any emissions related" component and they don't consider the exhaust manifold emissions-related? Its spitting out un-catalyzed exhaust and is probably running rich as MPG has been pretty crappy for a Civic lately on it.

I'll try the o2 disconnect and see if they'll finally fix it. If not its off to ebay for a cheap header replacement.

 

[bulwnkl]

Vizvo: Why would a cracked exhaust manifold affect the upstream O2 sensor's reading? The crack will let exhaust out, but unless it also sucks fresh air in, all that will happen is that the sensor will see less of exactly the same ratio of O2ther exhaust gases. Will this kind of leak suck fresh air in?

 

[vizvo]

Hi bulwnkl. Intuitively, it would seem that air wouldn't leak in. But all the technical literature suggests otherwise. One way to look at it is to realize that the exhaust gasses do not flow at a constant rate, or at a constant pressure. The gasses are pulsed into the exhaust stream. Pressure is not constant, and there can exist instantaneous negative pressure. This allows ingress of air into the exhaust stream from a cracked manifold.

And it need not be very much air to trip the O2 sensor lean. Your typical zirconia O2 sensor acts as a switch. You only need to tip the O2 ratio a very slight amount for the sensor to signal lean. When exhaust gas O2 ratio starts to climb over about 0.5 percent (one half of one percent) the sensor is going to indicate a lean condition. Recall that with a properly functioning emissions control system, O2 content should be extremely low, indicating complete combustion. The oxygen content of fresh air is about 21 percent.