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#553783 - 08/02/04 01:05 AM What oil overfilling can do to an engine?
sifan Offline


Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 883
Loc: Maryland, USA
I accidently overfilled the engine with oil by 3/4 quart (the engine normally takes in 3.9 quarts). After driving for 4000 miles I did a complete drain of oil, and noticed more metal particles than usual plus few metal flakes.

I wonder if their presence has to do with oil overfilling. What kind of engine damages can oil overfilling produce?

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#553784 - 08/02/04 02:11 AM Re: What oil overfilling can do to an engine?
crashz Offline


Registered: 07/31/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Massachusetts
Over filling can be worse than under filling. What happens is the crankshaft will whip up all the oil and foam it. The oil pump will then have to pump this air entrained fluid, sending an air/oil mix through the engine. Air will compress under pressure and create a cavitation effect at the bearings where the presure is released. The air compression will also stall the oil getting to other engine parts.

I'm surprised that you can actually see the particles though, that's not a good sign. You should have an UOA done on the next batch to monitor engine wear.

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#553785 - 08/02/04 02:20 AM Re: What oil overfilling can do to an engine?
Boeing 757 Pilot Offline


Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 88
Loc: FL
This might sound like a silly question.......But does anybody know how much oil is 'circulating' in an Integra motor while at highyway speeds?? [Confused] My guess is 1 quart of oil. Thanks for your help. Half a quart of oil overfilled shouldnt be too bad. [Cool]

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#553786 - 08/02/04 04:26 AM Re: What oil overfilling can do to an engine?
Jejunum Offline


Registered: 07/18/04
Posts: 4
Loc: ohio
i seriously doubt 3/4 qrtr is anything serious. many people run a little more oil than usual when headed to the track (.5-1qrt ive read).

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#553787 - 08/02/04 04:35 PM Re: What oil overfilling can do to an engine?
mikep Offline



Registered: 01/07/03
Posts: 1181
Loc: NJ, USA
"More metal particles than usual"? Um, that doesn't sound very reassuring. What type of car and how many miles?

I wouldn't think an extra 3/4 quart would make that big a difference. An instructor with the performance driving club I joined advised anyone with a modern, DOHC 4-banger to overfill their cars sump by half a qt. According to him most of the mechanical problems he's seen with newer cars has been spun bearings in small sump 4-bangers. He assured those of us who questioned his logic that half a qt. would be perfectly safe not only for the entire track day but for the remainder of the oci.

I was hesitant to do so but I followed his advice and added an extra .5 qt to the 4.5 qt. sump in my Mazda6 and kept it in for another 2,000 miles.

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#553788 - 08/02/04 07:24 PM Re: What oil overfilling can do to an engine?
sifan Offline


Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 883
Loc: Maryland, USA
The car is a 2003 Toyota Echo with 15k miles on the engine.

I forgot to add one detail. I drove the last 400 of 4000 miles with newly installed Frantz bypass oil filter. I was wondering if the extra metal particles might come from the installation.

While driving with oil overfilling, I could feel the engine kind of bloating inside and loosing zippiness. I wonder if this is the kind of engine response with oil overfilling?

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#553789 - 08/03/04 12:13 AM Re: What oil overfilling can do to an engine?
crashz Offline


Registered: 07/31/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Massachusetts
Brand new Toyota?

Whoa - I think something is going on here. Did you just drill into the pan or valve cover to install the Frantz and leave the metal shavings in the engine? There should be no visible metal particles at all, especially with a bypass filter!

Keep a close eye on that. I'd be taking the car back to the dealer with the metal shavings ! Not sure if the bypass hurts you here though. You may want to take it off and then bring the car to the dealer.

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#553790 - 08/03/04 03:50 AM Re: What oil overfilling can do to an engine?
sifan Offline


Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 883
Loc: Maryland, USA
The oil is drawn from a sandwitch adaptor by Frantz, and is returned thru oil cap with a swivel fitting. When I installed the sandwitch adaptor, I noticed a dangling metal flake near the port. The toilet paper caught it with engine running less than 1 minute. Due to leakage as the result of my failure in improperly securing of clamp, I removed the bypass filter. I re-installed it last week and drove the car for 400 miles prior doing a complete drain of oil. I found an additional metal flake in the toilet paper, and some metal particles in the oil. I wonder if any damages done to my engine?

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#553791 - 08/04/04 09:04 AM Re: What oil overfilling can do to an engine?
crashz Offline


Registered: 07/31/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Massachusetts
Sifan,

Gather all of the metal particles that you found, remove the bypass filter, bring your car and the metal particles to the dealer and have them explain it.

I have never ever seen metal flakes or particles of any sort on any of my new or used vehicles' engines. Wether they rather great or not. Hopefully I'm just over reacting and this is nothing, but it would be prudent to have this documented as a complaint with your dealer and then get a second opinion from another dealer.

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#553792 - 08/04/04 09:17 AM Re: What oil overfilling can do to an engine?
XS650 Offline



Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 12385
Loc: Northern CA
quote:
Originally posted by crashz:
Sifan,

Gather all of the metal particles that you found, remove the bypass filter, bring your car and the metal particles to the dealer and have them explain it.


It might not be a good idea to let the dealer see that there are metal particles in the engine and un-authorized holes in the engine to install a bypass filter.

I'm sure some outhouse lawyer will say what he did won't effect the warranty, but if it looks like his work has caused metal particles to fall into the engine, then any damage that has a distinct probablity of being caused by the particles won't be covered.

An oil analysis and a few bucks spent on a check up at an good independant shop (if he really wants to)would be more prudent.

It's not my car, but if it were and I had made the same screwup (I've done worse [LOL!] ) he did, I would get an oil analysis and stop there if the results were OK.

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#553793 - 08/03/04 11:38 PM Re: What oil overfilling can do to an engine?
sifan Offline


Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 883
Loc: Maryland, USA
What unauthorized hole on the engine? Oil is drawn from a Frantz sandwitch adaptor and returned thru an aftermarket oil cap to the engine. I did not drill any holes on the engine. I can remove the whole Frantz filter setup from the engine, and no one can tell it is ever installed.

I suspect the metal flakes came from the sandwitch adaptor because I had seen one in its port prior installation.

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#553794 - 08/09/04 12:01 AM Re: What oil overfilling can do to an engine?
427Z06 Offline


Registered: 12/06/03
Posts: 7409
Loc: Austin, TX
quote:
Originally posted by sifan:
I suspect the metal flakes came from the sandwitch adaptor because I had seen one in its port prior installation.

Maybe that's your answer. The metal particles are left over machining from the adapter. If the adapter is aluminum, take a magnet to the particles you found and/or see if you can determine what they're made of. Maybe one of our resident chemist can come up with a simple homemade test.

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#553795 - 08/13/04 02:42 AM Re: What oil overfilling can do to an engine?
got boost? Offline


Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 211
Loc: CMH
I'd trade the car in. there should never be visible particles in oil, even during "break in". I also don't understand putting a bypass on a cheap throw away car like this, but that's another story. at the very least, frantz has crappy quality control if what you say about the metal flakes being in the adapter is true. imho they owe you another engine. here's my take:
beware of frantz

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#553796 - 08/14/04 09:05 AM Re: What oil overfilling can do to an engine?
ekpolk Offline
The Regenerator


Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 8881
Loc: Pensacola FL
quote:
Originally posted by XS650:
I'm sure some outhouse lawyer will say what he did won't effect the warranty, but if it looks like his work has caused metal particles to fall into the engine, then any damage that has a distinct probablity of being caused by the particles won't be covered.

A couple of thoughts here. First, XS (does that stand for "excess"?), you've let your irrational feelings about lawyers get the better of you. No worthy lawyer would say that, so that's not even a good lawyer cheapshot. Sifan will likely have trouble if it comes to a warranty fight, since he did something that may well cause damage (intro of metal flakes into engine). Toyota would still have to prove that caused the problem, though.

Second, why the need to veer [Off Topic!] and take a cheap shot at lawyers at all? This is a thread about overfilling, metal in oil, and Frantz filters. I'm a lawyer and I'm proud of what I do. At the moment, that would be defending my country as a part of the Marine Corps, to which I have belonged for the last 24 years. Since I've spent the last two years or so recalled to active duty, serving this country, I find your characterization of my service particularly offensive, and all the more so coming from one who as a member here, displays the "Military Veteran" avatar. I take it you lost a big case at some point in your life. . .

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#553797 - 08/14/04 10:49 AM Re: What oil overfilling can do to an engine?
XS650 Offline



Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 12385
Loc: Northern CA
quote:
Originally posted by ekpolk:


Second, why the need to veer [Off Topic!] and take a cheap shot at lawyers at all? This is a thread about overfilling, metal in oil, and Frantz filters. I'm a lawyer and I'm proud of what I do. At the moment, that would be defending my country as a part of the Marine Corps, to which I have belonged for the last 24 years. Since I've spent the last two years or so recalled to active duty, serving this country, I find your characterization of my service particularly offensive, and all the more so coming from one who as a member here, displays the "Military Veteran" avatar. I take it you lost a big case at some point in your life. . .

Ed, I'm sorry you took it that way, but this is difficult communications medium, so it's understandable.

There were no cheap shots there. I'm surprised you don't recognize the term "outhouse lawyer" as a sanitized verion of the old military term "sh1thouse lawyer" which refers to totally unqualified GIs giving legal advice to other GIs. The term was usually used by old timers when I was in in the early 1960s, so I guess it was before your time [Smile] It doesn't show any disrespect for laywers at all, in fact it shows respect for them by indicating that one shouldn't accept legal advice from unqualified people.

This is a rather obtuse communications medium, isn't it? I think it's best to not assume you have been insulted unless it is patently obvious.

BTW, I have never been involved in a large legal case, and have almost usually come out on top in small ones, with or without a lawyer.

One more small point, if I had a big legal problem, there would be no one I would be happier to see than a competent lawer who was on my side.

Also, I do have a -very- high opinion of the USMC, even though I would never admit that in polite company because I am ex-AF.

Thank-You for your service.

[ August 15, 2004, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: XS650 ]

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