Ford MODULAR MOTOR TIMING CHAIN PROB

[metroplex]

2000-2003
4.6L V8 Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis Engines May Have Factory Defects

11 August 03

Robert Lane - Blue Oval News.com

Ford Motor Company has told its dealers that 2000 through 2003 model year Ford Crown Victoria and Mercury Grand Marquis vehicles may exhibit a grinding noise from the engine timing chain area. This noise, according to Ford, may be caused by excessive wear of the timing chain tensioner arms. The tensioner arm has an aluminum base with a nylon surface. The condition can also be detected by fine nylon and or aluminum particles present in the engine oil.

Ford instructed the dealers to inspect the timing chain and arms, and to replace the timing chains, tensioners and tensioner arms should it be necessary. Ford may only remove residual nylon and aluminum particles via and oil and filter change. If the wear has progressed though the tensioner components, your Ford dealer has been instructed to remove the engine's oil pan and flush out the oil pickup tube.

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I was told the timing chains contact a lot of engine oil during engine operation.

Could it be that the majority of the affected Crown Vics (01-03) are using 5W-20 which is thinner than 5W-30, causing excessive/rapid wear of the tensioners?

When I briefly used 10W-40 in my 4.6, I could have sworn that it got a lot quieter during cold starts. With 5W-30, if I left my driveway w/o warming up properly I would hear this nasty racket in the engine and it'd go away quickly.

 

[Whimsey]

Well, slap me silly and call me Sue. But I thought the timing chain tensioners were oil activated. If that's the case then I would think that a quicker flowing oil, ie a 5W-20 meeting Ford's tougher specs, would be better at quieting the timing chain noise than your 10W-40 dino. I know that with every bone in your body you really HATE the Motorcraft 5W-20 oil. But just maybe it's not as bad as you portray it to be. I've used it since new and have gone through a pretty brutal winter and I honestly have to admit that even sitting outside in single digit temps overnight my 4.6L started quickly and quietly. Perhaps Ford just used crappy material in those car engines.

Whimsey

 

[metroplex]

If the 5W-20 DOES protect better than 10W-40 then why are all 2000-2003 Vics being "secretly" recalled for excessive wear of the nylon material on the tensioner besides cheap materials?

It just seems like a big coincidence that 2001-2003 Vics all use 5W-20.

And why would this only affect Vics and NOT Mustang GTs which used the same 4.6 engine from 2001 to 2003.

 

[MNgopher]

The change in oil viscosity likely has little to do with it if the recall includes 00 engines. The switch to 5w20 did not occur until '01.

 

[metroplex]

BON sometimes gets its info screwed up. It may very well mean Crown Vics/GMs manufactured from 2000 to 2003 which includes 2001-2003 MY CV/GMs.

What I'm wondering is WHY the Mustangs aren't being recalled considering they have the SAME engine from 2001-up (4.6L Romeo w/ PI heads, that's what the CV/GM has for 2001-up).

[ August 12, 2003, 06:37 AM: Message edited by: metroplex ]

 

[jsharp]

This kind of thing was a common problem in certain japanese and european engines 25-30 years ago. After building millions of them and multiple redesigns they have pretty well figured them out and no longer have trouble.

Looks to me like Ford is still on the steep part of the learning curve. I don't know how thicker oil would have pevented this since the chain to tensioner loads are so low...

[ August 12, 2003, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: jsharp ]

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by metroplex:

What I'm wondering is WHY the Mustangs aren't being recalled considering they have the SAME engine from 2001-up (4.6L Romeo w/ PI heads, that's what the CV/GM has for 2001-up).

---

This may have first showed up in Crown Vic police cars that do a lot of hot idling etc. Just speculation on my part but I'll ask my friend who works for ISP if they've had any problem...

 

[Whimsey]

Are we sure that all 4.6L engines of the same year are identical? For example my 2002 F-150 w/4.6L has an all aluminum engine, both block and heads. Are the 4.6L engines in the 2002 cars the same or do they have iron blocks? Even though the engine size designation is the same, 4.6L, there still can be differences. Maybe on the car engines Ford thought that they don't have to be as strong as the truck engines and used cheaper parts to save a few pennies. Does anyone know for sure that all 4.6L engines built at the Romeo plant are identical or do they have different assembley lines for engine variations. That nylon gear shreading sound more like a function of cheapness on Ford's part than the type of oil used.

Whimsey

 

[metroplex]

The trucks use engines from the Windsor engine facility.

The Stang from 99-00 got their 4.6s from Windsor as well (iron block, PI heads, better build quality) but from 96-98 they had Romeo 4.6s w/ Non-PI heads.

The Stang from 2001-up got the Romeo 4.6s - same as the Crown Vic (same block and PI heads)

I just found the TSB posted on a CV site and they're showing 1995/1996 replacement parts for the 2000 MY Crown Vic/Grand Marquis with 2000/2001 replacement parts for the 2001-2003 CV/GMs.

I have to ask the question, if the 2000 Vic needs 1995/1996 replacement parts, why aren't the 1994-1999 Crown Vics experiencing the same problem? I know of many 300k mile+ Police cars that were pre-00 model year and they haven't had any problems. This is weird.

I am concerned becuase I have a 2000 Crown Vic and during cold starts, if I start driving right away I'll hear the chain slapping around but the noise goes away after a few short seconds then you'll never hear it.

On the Windsor 5.4L SOHC V8 in the 2003 E-250, I never hear any abnormal noises but the design is relatively the same as the 4.6 SOHC V8, except that it has a longer stroke.

[ August 12, 2003, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: metroplex ]

 

[Whimsey]

Metro, the 4.6L all aluminum engine in my 2002 F-150 is from the Romeo plant. My friend's 2001 F-150 with the 4.6L and aluminum heads and iron block is also from the Romeo plant. The 8th digit in the vin is "W" indicating the engine was made in Romeo plant. If that digit was "6" then that indicates the Windsor plant.

Whimsey

 

[metroplex]

Whimsey: Interesting. From what I heard the Mustang engines were being produced at Romeo because they needed all the engines from Windsor for the trucks.

Interesting indeed.

 

[MNgopher]

4.6 engines in the F150's come from either the Windsor or Romeo engine plants, as Whimsey pointed out. Both of my 4.6 engines are Romeos.

Yes, the Windsor plant is pretty well used up from Producing 5.4's and 6.8's for truck production these days, but the 4.6l engines in the trucks have always come from both engine plants.

#1 selling vehicle in America - keeps a lot of plants busy!

 

[metroplex]

Gopher: ah... it makes sense now.

So the 5.4s and 6.8s are supposed to be of better build quality? I hope in 3 years I won't hear of any "secret recalls" for the E-250's 5.4

 

[MNgopher]

Better build quality? Over at another board, the issue of which is better, Romeo or Windsor, 4.6l engines has been debated over and over.

On paper, the Windsor motors are better. In reality, the Windsor motors have had issues with Piston Slap (mostly 97-99, some cases in later years), and leaking head gaskets, though that has afflicted engines from both plants at times.

Personally, I think its a wash as to better build quality. All the 4.6 motors I know of with high mileage (200,000 mile plus) are Romeos. What does that mean? Heck if I know...

 

[Flashlightboy]

If I may add a little something.

Starting with '97 Explorers (4.0 SOHC), the engines were recalled because of timing chain/tensioner problems. It started out as a slight metallic sound that went away after 5 or so seconds. Overtime it led to engine failure.

Initially Ford didn't acknowledge a problem but dealt with it "quietly" on a case-by-case basis. Eventually they increased the warranty period until 75k miles.

In some cases engines failed and were replaced.

Bottom line: Ford doesn't really have it's design act together and it seemingly likes to place things on the market without having completed thorough testing.

[ August 12, 2003, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Flashlightboy ]

 

[mf150]

Just to add to the confusion, I spoke with a mechanic the other day, while having my 03 Mustang GT changed, and he mentioned that a lot of the newer 4.6L Mustang engines are being produced in Cleveland. We punched in the door sticker code, and sure enough, the engine manufacture point is Cleveland.

I had a 01 F-150 4.6L with the Romeo engine. It had two HG leaks in less than a month of being fixed. Something was wrong with either the block or the head.

As far as the viscocity problem goes, there isn't any. 5W20 is in existence because of newer CAFE requirments. Ford wanted better gas milage for their window stickers.

As for the mustang engines, the intake manifold is different than the trucks and other cars. not to mention some other minute differences.

[ August 13, 2003, 04:07 AM: Message edited by: mf150 ]

 

[pscholte]

quote:

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Originally posted by Flashlightboy:
Bottom line: Ford doesn't really have it's design act together and it seemingly likes to place things on the market without having completed thorough testing.

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Flashlightboy,

I believe your assessment is dead on...

[ August 13, 2003, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: pscholte ]

 

[Steve S]

but the sparkplugs last a long time

[ August 14, 2003, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: Steve S ]