Idling Diesel Really Bad?

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Went over to neighbors, left my 92 dodge cummins in cold few hours. Went out during coffee and started it up a few minutes before leaving, went back in for a few minutes, conversation got going and I started getting nervous about leaving my diesel dead idle for about a half hour?

Neighbor asked me why I was fretting about my diesel idling. I told him I learned in Bitog a dead idle on diesel is not good. He told me he worked on oil rigs for 20 years, those diesels idled 18 hours then ran full bore until the next two days idle in winter.

He used to do OCs on them, in -40F they put the pails of oil right beside heaters in dog house, got everything ready, they had 5 minutes to change oil in order to get that diesel going again. He said these Diesels go 15000 to 20000 hours with no trouble, either long term idle or working hard. He drives a 99 Dodge Cummins, when he visits here he leaves his idle up a an hour in sub zero with no worries, most I do is ten minutes max up till other day. I dont know what to think winter idle on diesel , summer I dont idle much at all. I couldn't do over 1 hour idle on my diesel.

My brother in law runs two John Deere tractors on feed lot operation, he starts both up in morning in sub zero, they both work periodiclally each day, he never shuts them off, he claims there is more engine damage shutting them off in winter with restarts. Starting cold kills them he maintains, run em. Last year one John Deere burned up, he rented one at $25.00 per hour, it was metered, he would not shut it off in winter, he paid the full amount for all day with lots of idling because of his belief to never shut off a diesel in sub zero. He runs his Deeres for 15000 hours plus doing this.

Gas Patch welders/drillers/maintenance workers here run their diesels all day, they move site to site then idle hours in sub zero, many claim their newer modeled cummins dont maintain heat at idle but they say better to idle cold than cold dead start.

When I speak of dead idle being bad as I have learned in this forum I feel like an alien in my area here on shutting off a diesel in winter. They shake their head.

My 92 12 valve Cummins surprises lots of people, at idle it warms up in sub zero weather, ten minutes the gauge starts to move, neighbor figures I have a good thermostat, lot of farmers/neighbors in my area who run new cummins are very impressed with this as theirs wont heat at all, my antifreeze is at proper full mark with reserve tank too. I am not complaining, must be another benefit of driving the older 12 valve 5.9 Cummins.

My cousin who is a trucker for years now advised me to idle my Cummins till the gauge barely moves as I usually do, my analysis iron count in ppm is around 6 ppm in two consecutive winters doing this in sub zero.

Is a dead idle in winter really bad compared to cold starting it throughout a day, which is worse?

Cyprs
 
I suppose it depends on the conditions. When possible it is better to use a "high" idle or shut the truck off. In extreme cold weather you want to keep the truck idling to keep the fuel/tanks and oil warm. In this kind of weather you are probably not close to an outlet for your coolant/oil heater and might not get the truck started again!

Idling for long periods of time causes accelerated bore wear (among other things) due to inadequate lube since the bores are usually splash lubed. Although, in really cold weather, long low idle can cause bore glazing due and varnish. Almost all electronic diesels have some sort of high idle feature, some are also temp sensing and idle the truck up during cold weather. My 7.3 Ford and C15 CAT both have this cold temp feature.
 
Idle your Cummins as little as you can. At idle, it doesn't burn hot enough and you can end up washing fuel down the cylinders, and carbon up the injector tips, in addition to what WreckerMan mentioned. If you have an exhaust brake, that helps; with it engaged, EGT gets up around 600, where cumbustion is more complete.
 
I’m starting to question how bad idling a diesel really is as well. I am on an oilrig right now, and everyone seems to be an excessive idler out here. The most of the big diesel engines on the rig never get shut down, except for oil changes. They idle for hours when they are not being used, but you see lots of engines out here with 15,000+ hours with no oil related problems.

Most vehicles that come onto location never get shut off, either. I don't think people really care about the engine, since it is usually the rest of the truck that wears out first, on these rough roads.

Right now I am sharing a trailer with three other guys. We drive to camp twice a day. They all have remote car starters and idle there trucks for 15 mins or longer before going anywhere! They don’t like to scrape the frost off their windows, so they wait until the truck warms up enough to melt the frost. Power is free out here I am the only one that has been plugging the block heater, and space heater in the cab. I just start my truck, unplug the extension cords and go. I am the only one of the 4 guys out here that hasn't needed to refuel yet. To me that is the biggest reason I don't idle, it seems like such a waste of fuel.

I have never really had a good oil analysis with my truck. Iron accumulates in my engine at a rate of 3-5 ppm per 1000 km. This isn't really impressive especially since I am using a Frantz bypass filter (I'm starting to question the effectiveness of the Frantz as well). I have been thinking that letting the engine idle for a while to evenly heat up the block may be the better option.

I will be installing an Espar diesel fired heater this spring. It will allow me to heat my engine to operating tempature before every drive. I plan on using it for a complete OCI this summer to see what effect it will have on my oil analysis.

Carl
 
Idling isn't good. Idling in frigid weather is sometimes necessary because the engine won't start. If you can reduce idling to a minimum and heat the engine other ways, you'll have longer engine life.

I've run industrial diesels and we try to never idle longer than needed to check for proper operation when putting load on them, or to idle until temperatures are stable after removing heavy load. Heat is always used on the engine well before starting. Locomotives in this country are allowed to idle for hours, and seldom allowed to idle for long in Europe. Go figure. Ship's propulsion diesel engines are not allowed to run at low load if it is safe to stop and drift in the cases where the port is not ready to take the ship in. The generator diesel engines on those ships have a load put on them as soon as the engine is running. The emergency generator engines are our usual truck or heavy equipment engines, and the generator engines are locomotive engines. The propulsion engines are used only for ships or very big power plants on islands or other remote locations.


Ken
 
Carl, you echo what I hear from guys in patch. Up till this one time 3/4 hour idle I do idle 10 minutes when cold. My oil analysis on iron last year was 6 ppm iron and it was cold up here last year as you probably remember.

This year I installed a 250 watt wolverine heat pad, amazing product, eliminated winter, I still idle the 10 minutes without heat on when cold, this speeds up warming greatly. With the wolverine heat pad in conjunction with the block heater, my heat temp gauge now starts moving prior to ten minute idle, at that point I am driving off gentle, sometimes as low as 5 min idle and gauge showing slight movement, gone then.

Will do another analysis in spring, I expect 3-5 ppm iron rather than 6 with the warmer weather and heat pad this winter. Interesting to see what happens with this one long idle on this analysis, not going to do that anymore, but I dont think I will stop the 10 min idle until an oil analysis proves me wrong with high counts. I run winter 0-40 XD3 4000 to 5000 kms with winter starts,that is what my 6 ppm is based on in winter. Get same low iron results summer with XD3 dino/syn blend. My 100C visc goes from 15.7 to 13.5 winter on straight XD3 syn, no fuel dilution. My visc goes from 15.5 average on blend to 14.7 in summer, both based on 5K OCI.

Wreckerman and company, will long term idle show on oil analysis in iron and other metal counts? also, is my full one point loss on 100C visc in winter compared to summer due my ten minute idles, is 13.5 visc okay after 3K miles, 5K kms?


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Good luck on rigs Carl,
Southwest Sask here is going nuts in boom in patch. Consul area has every hotel, house rental etc full, 100 man camp and traffic still flowing in daily on highways. Expect large boom where I live here, going like raped ape. This spins off benefit to everyone, good for economy. Tar sands are going to be big too north of us in Athabaska country in Sask. I lived in Uranium City, long for that country, may work up that country again, my dream, Paradise in fishing/camping etc. Pretty cold starts up there.

Cyprs
 
a friend of mine is a trucker during the winter they idle their trucks sometimes for days on end when they are snowed in. The main thing is to bump up the idle speed to get the temps up high enough to not cause fuel wash down of your cylinders.
diesels idle very cool so the idle has to be bumped up. The cummins engines are used as generators so all they do is idle but the RPM's are higher. there are after market parts available that allow you to bump up the RPM's by increments of 100RPM and I think the key is to get it to around 1200 RPM and you are safe to idle forever a LONG time!
 
it seems like most people who own and operate diesels will idle them if they can rather than shut them off. most people who do not own a diesel say to not idle them and state reasons like cylinder washdown, etc.

fyi, you cant really wash down a diesel cylinder at idle because the engine is being run so incredibly lean that there just isnt ehough fuel to wash anything down. think about the cummins at idle in winter. they dont even warm up to operating temp at idle because so little fuel is being consumed there just isnt enough btu's.

where i work, i sometimes run a 18liter turbo diesel in a backdump. i was told by management not to shut the thing off during lunch hour because thats what i had been doing. they said it is bad for the engine, bad for the turbo, and the starter, battery cables, and battery.

the starter battery and cables kind of threw me off at first, but then i realised that the machines i run normally get started once a day. and i was starting them twice a day, effectively cutting the electrical parts life in half.
 
Not that it ever gets alaska cold, but Delta airlines policy in their major hubs (salt lake city, cincinnati, and atlanta) with the diesel powered luggage tugs is to leave them idling all night when the temperature is below a certain point. I don't know if they have a high idle or not but it is eerie to be around there with them all parked in one spot running with no one around.
 
high idle is good. my dads truck has a remote starter on it. when he starts it with the remote and after a few min it will kick itself up to high idle, about 1200 or 1300 rpm.
 
Yes, a UOA will show the wear from excessive idling, but it will probably be very slight amount. It's really hard to determine what is excessive, and it depends a lot on conditions and engine type. I have seen cold weather diesels have many bore/ring problems that can be traced to excessive idle. However if we had shut them off they would never have restarted and there was no other means of preheating the engine.

Washing down the cylinders at idle is defiantly possible. First there is almost no lube from the crank and/or wrist pin/piston nozzle (depending on how the bore is lubed) and even at a lean idle there is still un-burnt fuel in many cases (cold start/cold ambient/high idle, even when warm). Although they are no longer produced in large quantities, the mechanical diesels had rather imprecise fuel control at idle. Even some electronic engines over fuel at idle. There are 3 C15's at work that have fuel slobber running down the stacks at idle. These particular trucks are tow trucks, so they idle for long period of time and then get run hard and idle more. These trucks see a lot less engine life compared to the over the road trucks, the life expectancy has quite a spread. We average about 175-300 miles from a tow truck, but 750-1million+ out of our road tractors.

At my other job I get to see data from 1400 transit coaches, these are primarily in town and see heavy traffic, lots of accel/decel/idle time. The buses are rotated to different bases to try and keep the mileages even, but this doesn't always happen perfectly. Here again, there is a direct correlation between engine life and driving conditions. The downtown coaches that see hard accel/decel and LOTS of idle time have major engine failures about 30% sooner than other coaches.

I take a moderate approach with my personal diesels. I let them idle a little before I leave when cold (I always plug in the oil/coolant heater, even in the dead of summer) and idle before shutdown until I see 250dF EGT. I never shut the trucks off when refueling. I don't however, let the truck run for hours on end (although I’d like to so I can listen). There isn't a blanket statement that will cover this issue, it depends on the engine and conditions that the engine will be operated in, but .5-.75 hours will not make your engine explode in a shower of sparks 10K miles down the road
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Wreckerman, your quote "I take a moderate approach with my personal diesels." good policy/advice. Pretty much what I was doing up until that 3/4 hour idle,longest I have ever idled that Cummins.

Considering other posts in here on long idles being normal or condoned in some cases then I believe my normal several minutes idle (10 minutes or under, 15 minutes in extreme nasty cold) feels moderate for my purpose and weather conditions.

In future I will finish coffee break completely and sit in truck to get that personal moderate zone on warm up idle.

thanks all.
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Cyprs
 
Cummins has issued a service bulletin warning of varnished/stuck valves on ISB engines idled for extended periods in cold climates. Don't do it.

A cold diesel doesn't "run lean" when combustion temperatures drop. Quite the contrary, the ECM will increase the fueling to compensate for the reduction in idle speed. The reduced idle speed is a consequence of lower inefficent combustion temperatures.
Just the thought of fuel slobber (unburned fuel) running down exhaust stacks makes me cringe.
 
well i saw two ambulances today both had dt466's in them (i think the number was 466 definetly a dt) when they go to their destination they stopped set the brakes and kicked up the idle and let them sit there for a while.
 
top fuel, if the computer would increase the fueling at idle, then the engine would no longer idle, it would rev up. the fuel ammount injected is the only way a computer, or any sort of diesel injection (even mechanical) has of controlling rpm because diesels have no throttle body. the only way to make a diesel idle is to inject so little fuel that it doesnt create enough power to rev any higher than idle.

you cant idle a diesel rich unless maybe there was some sort of restrictor plate partly blocking the intake.
 
You can idle a diesel rich due to combustion temperatures. I have an injected gas engine with no choke valve that works similar to what you would have in a diesel. Cold start the ECM richens the mixture to idle the engine up.

In a diesel, as the engine idles the combustion/EGT gets cooler. On an electronic engine the ECM will add fuel to try and keep the high in spec. Ever start a mechanical diesel that hasn't been plugged in during cold weather. I just fired off a truck with a NTC350 that hasn’t been plugged in and it idles about 300 RPM and slobbers and smokes (unburned fuel), and it's warm today about 42dF! The idea of "rich" doesn't quite have the same set of standard for diesel as it does gas.

I too have seen the TSB's for ISB from Cummins, however I think in most climates it will take more than .5 hour to get a varnished/stuck valve. I think just enough idle time to see even the smallest rise in coolant temp is plenty of time on startup, just drive off easy until at full temp. Speaking of, I better get the old Louisville on the road, on plus side I never have bugs with these old trucks around (plenty of smoke during the winter).
cheers.gif
 
Ditto on different engines, different situations, etc. I ran generators for a village in Alaska for a while. Cummins. I took the time to read the manuals. If we ran power off a generator immediately after startup (even when preheated to 140F+) that rated the generator a "standby" and reduced our warrantee to a 90 day warrantee.

Cummins required for this model generator to run a minimum of 3 to 5 minutes AND a minimum temp of 140F before advancing beyond 900 RPM to the 1800 rpm generation speed. I guess pistons have to heat up beyond the block temp to grow enough?

So some idle is required of those particular engines. About extended (hours on end) idle....

We had one engine failure that Cummins Northwest blamed on too low a power useage to keep the engine warm (even at 1800 rpm). The situation happened at the coldest of winter, the generator shed was unheated (-60F or so outside), nobody draws power all night, so there was minimal load on the engine. After that, an attemp was made to keep the generator shed closed up and somewhat heated.

Espar?? Yes! I have two of them. One on my cummins, one in my boat. I've only run them for a year, but so far they are the greatest. Webasto and others make a similar unit. Thus, I idle a lot less than I used to, especially when I'm not near a plug in for my block heater.
 
I can testify to the effectiveness of Espar and Webasto heaters. I fire up my Webasto diesel heater 1/2 hour before starting my engine. Even in - zero temps, my engine is near operating temp and my windshield is clear of ice and the interior warm.

Then my Espar which came standard on my Sprinter takes over, to help the engine reach full O/T. If the engine starts to cool off when driving, the Espar kicks in automatically to keep the engine in the correct operating zone.

Before I start my diesel though, I unplug my 185 watt oil pan heater. Anyone serious about having their engine preform better during the winter should look into Espar and Webasto. An oil pan heater sure doesn't hurt either.

I've got plenty of experience with these heater. I'm willing to help anyone determine which heater would be best for their application. I would recommend you have either heater professionally installed, except for a pan heater. Both companies have a long history in business, and they also make air heaters in addition to coolant heaters.

You guys have a good day.
 
As I mentioned earlier, my 92 cummins is a fast warmer, is it fair to say that with the use of my block heater and 250 watt heat pad that idling until the heat temp gauge barely moves off low point is safe idle time to drive off gentle?

Would such an idle in summer until heat temp gauge barely moves be good too?

Cyprs
 
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