Mobil 1 ATF in Honda Z1?

[Audi Junkie]

Wondering if anyone has done it. After changing Z1 yesterday I'm, for some reason, more open to other fluids. I bought 5q of Z1 and have 2 left. Since I need another quart for next change, I was thinking of just buying a q of Mobil 1 ATF and tossing it in. From there on, just going with Mobil 1 for future changes. I've read how people get wierd shifts with anything other than Z1 and read others do fine. My car shifts fine now and it seems sort of silly to pay $3+ a quart for Z1 which is likely just light Dexron. I'm going for it unless somone stops me. I'll be the guinea pig. Any ideas?


Typical Properties

Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF

Viscosity, ASTM D 445
cSt @ 40º C 34
cSt @ 100º C 7.6
Brookfield Viscosity, ASTM D 5293
-cP @ -40º C 5190
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 199
Pour Point, ºC, ASTM D 97 -54
Flash Point, ºC, ASTM D 92 236

 

[ChrisW]

Mobil 1 ATF, Specialty Formulations AutoGlide, Amsoil ATF, Redline D4, Valvoline Maxlife, and Valvoline MerconV are all acceptable fluids to use in place of Z1, however, they will all behave differently than Z1.

 

[Terry]

I'll back that up as a independent analyst for Specialty formulations and others.

OEM is too weak but appropriate chemistry.

Z1 is an improvement.

Specialty Formulations Honda fluid is the best most appropriate quality that can currently be found, bar none.

Honda needs to contract with Mola.

Terry

 

[Audi Junkie]

I hear ya, at least Z-1 is cheap. I'll probally do the bottle of M1 to save the trip to our local Honda dealer, that place is dreadfull.

 

[unDummy]

What metallic elements?
Purpose of those elements?

The VOA/UOAs show a little more Z/Ph/B compared to other ATFs. I also understand that the Honda PS fluid is blended the same way, with a higher dose of those AW/EP/AF additives.

Why? inferior temp control, inferior lubrication(proven with the recall and AT jet upgrade), outrageous ATF change interval(cater to the maintenance free crowd), inferior suppliers(cheap tranny parts-powdered metal not cast or forged).........

You can use any fluid and any change interval you want. But, if something breaks, who do you blame? the wrong fluid? the manufacturer? the maintenance interval? yourself?

I'm waiting for someone to blend an ADDITIVE specifically for Mobil1(or equivalent ATF) for specific usages.
I do believe in the 'universal' tranny additives but would like to see more differentiation between red/black/blue/green/silver bottles and would probably sell way better then those products.

What would you buy?
A "bottle" that converts ANY OTC ATF to ANY proprietary ATF.
Or, a "bottle" that converts a specific few ATFs(like DexronIII only) to "one" OEM specific spec(Z1, J, K, D, T-IV, MV...).

 

[Terry]

Audi, If I might please do not add the M1 ATF, it does not have the appropriate adds. Spend the money on the Honda stuff.

Undummy, this is my living, not a game and I would be happy to sell that info to you for what a formulator would pay me. Not being a smart alec but Molakule and I work very hard on this stuff.

Terry

 

[Audi Junkie]

Whew, I re-read the Z-1 threads. There is plenty written on this already. Z-1 is unique, although some have had good results with MaxLife and SF. I'm not trying to save money, just find the best fluid. I think I will still add the M1 to my next drain, one quart might beef it up without changing the friction properties. I wish I had the nads to run Mobil 1 at full concentration. I guess there is no need if Z1 works, who cares if it is not PAO or whatever...there is an easy drain and refill for that trans.

 

[MolaKule]

Mobil 1 and other fluids do NOT have the metallic elements required for the Honda trannies.


As I have stated in other threads, the Z1 is one very unusual fluid when analyzed and compared to DexronIII/Mercon, MerconV, DM's ATF+4, and Toyota T-IV, Nissanmatic, etc.

 

[Audi Junkie]

I was actually thinking the bottle of M1 would be a benefit. Base oil in oem fluids are typically sub-par and the overdose of additives in Z1 seems like a way to overcome that. I figured a shot of PAO from the M1 would beef-up the fluid while not really changing the overall friction coefficient. As much as I am tempted to do this, on Terry's advice I won't. Hey, free advice...whoo-hoo!

 

[PandaBear]

What I read from honda-tech seems to confirm Mola and Terry's statement about Honda ATF has a special additives (not entirely sure if it is some metal as Mola and Terry are not willing to share that). Many who uses generic ATF has no apparent problem in their tranny, but the shift feel seems much harder and didn't appear until a while later.

From what some claims, the additives have a particular purpose of clinging onto the clutch pack that Honda uses, which is harder than typical auto tranny and do not shred as much.

The panless design, magnetic drain plug, and a filter that cannot be replaced unless you rebuild the tranny seems to indicate this is the case. Probably most of the wear particles are ferrious and the clutch packs materials are similar to metallic brake pad. The additives are designed to be bind to these ferrious materials, provide the "slip" between shift (hence the harder shifting if using generic fluid lacking these additives).

Mola also mentioned in other posts that these additives are too abbrassive for non-Honda auto tranny. It must be some sort of corrosive gas or abbrasive metal particles.

I couldn't find VOA of ATF Z1, but UOA indicates the common ratio of the following (+/- quite a bit):

Common additive:
Zn ~= 250-300
P ~= 10-20
Ca ~= 350-400
B ~= 220-300
Mg ~= 200-230
Na ~= 10
S ~= 900-1000, from 2 UOAs here

Metal:
Fe ~= 50-100
Cu ~= 10-50
Al ~= 20-40
Pb ~= 0-10
Mo ~= 0

Insoluable ~= 0
TAN ~= 0.4 - 0.6

Sulphur is way too high from normal environment or any mechanical wear, and yeah, that is very corrosive if used in transmission not designed for. No insoluable? even for metal to metal gear grinding it for 30k miles seems very odd, probably the sulphur or other additive melted the main wear metal (Fe?) and hold it in suspension.

But what kind of sulphur? It cannot be too strong or else it will melt the Fe, but has to be strong enough to hold Fe as a solution. That is probably the million dollar question. Finding such info must be very hard, good job Mola and Terry, I wouldn't blame you guys for keeping it secret.

But seriously, I am sure the major blender/refiner already know as these are not really a secret among the industry, they probably think the market is not big enough to go after them with a unique label/bottle anyways, so I don't think you guys have much competition.

 

[reyjay1]

[ff topic:]
I stopped by the local stealer last night to pick up some of this special Honda fluid, and was expecting the price to be a little above 3.00 /qt as has been reported on the Honda forums, when he told me the price was 6.xx dollars I nearly fell over! After expressing my shock and mentioning that it wasn't even synthetic fluid and the old price was 3. something which he agreed was true he said he could let me have it at cost of $4.5x . Then they wanted $27 for a pcv valve and didn't even have them in stock. And coolant which was 9 something a gal for pre-diluted was now $18 a gal. So I wonder if it was just this stealer with a doubling of retail prices or have all dealers raised prices so astronomically. I will be checking around to find this out.

 

[Tones]

reyjay1:
I agree you will find there is a huge discrepancy on what dealers charge. If the dealer is remote from his competition, he may feel justified in charging more. Find a good online source for these common parts. However, many of the online retailers won't ship fluids.

 

[Dad2leia]

I would just like to add that I've used SF's AutoGlide in his Z-1 formulation, and I have to say that this stuff works better than the stealership OEM fluid. My CR-V's tranny is shifting BETTER after doing just a tranny service, which is just draining out the five quarts and replacing them.

MolaKule did assure me that his fluid is fully compatible with the OEM fluid, so a flush isn't necessary if you don't feel like doing that. I HIGHLY recommend his fluid to anyone with the Z-1 fluid specified Honda trannies, as this fluid will be all I use in it from now on.

 

[PandaBear]

Yeah, Honda stealers have many people on the nuts by charging this crazy price. IMO the only times stealers sell for the right price is when they send you coupon at home. And when they sell you ATF for $2.50 a quart (if you are lucky to get coupon) then they will try to sell you a drain plug gasket for $2.50 each to make it up.

For $6/qt, you would be much better off buying from Mola's SF.

 

[Schmoe]

Find a different dealer.