ATF is really a pain to choose!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jun 2, 2004
Messages
430
Location
Switzerland
Hello,

I must use ATF fluid in my power steering but it is really impossible to know which one to use since I have always contradictory information. I own a 1997 Volvo S40.

- My manual says to use ATF (no spec)

- VADIS (program used by Volvo dealers) say to use ATF type F or G and that Pentosin CHF11S may be use for cold climates. Somewhere else in the program it say to use ATF type F,G, Dexron D/E Mercon........

- Volvo dealers only sell Pentosin CHF11S now for power steering. They no more sell ATF type F,G.

Well quite confusing no?

My problem is that if Volvo states to use ATF type F, it's maybe that my power steering pump is clutch driven. In this case pouring the wrong fluid may be bad. I forgot the idea of using Pentosin CHF11S as my car is now 220'000km and has run only on ATF for that time. I don't want to use that Pentosin thin stuff now.

So basically I have two choices: use ATF type F,G or much more common Dexron III for example.

Do you think it is risky for me to use Dexron III if my system requires really ATF type F? Nobody can tell me what the right stuff to use. Moreover I heard that Dexron ATF shouldn't be mixed with ATF type F!!!!!!! I'm really really confused.

3 questions:
- If my manual say to use ATF witout any specs, then I should be safe if I choose any ATF no?

- If Pentosin CHF11S (a true power steering fluid, not ATF) can be used for cold climates, this means that my pump is not clutch driven and so I do not require to use ATF type F no?

- If my car has run on ATF type F for the last 220'000km, may using Dexron III ATF affect seals in the power steering system or are all ATF compatible with any seals?

[ August 20, 2004, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: kilou ]
 
If it helps, Mercedes specifies the use of Pentosin CHF11S for some models, and Dexron III for others -- point being that they make a separate distinction between the two for different applications.

To your last question, I would recommend not using Dexron III unless the spercification requires its use. You're correct to think it may be tough on your seals.
 
Why would Dexron III be tough on seals? Most Dexron III's up to the III(G) spec are group I mineral fluids or Group IV with mineral oil and small amounts of esters.

Most PS fluids from approx. the last ten years are full synthetic fluids.

I would recommend using the Ford Type-F speced fluid first. If there is no noise from the pump, such as growling or sqeaks, then stick with it.

If the pump or rack is more noisy, then go with a Dexron III such as Schaeffer's 204S or Chevron Dexron III ATF.
 
As I understand it, Dex III has evolved into a fluid with many additives, some that could be harsh on seals for any car built before Dex III was around. Though I don't consider 1997 an old car, why tempt fate and add a lubricant with additives when you have a choice of using ps fluid? Unless you know exactly how each seal will perform for the life of the specific vehicle using Dex III, I'd prefer to err on the safe side.
 
The problem is that I do not know what is the "safe side"! I don't know what fluid is in my PS system actually (all I know is that it's ATF but I do not know which type). As I said Volvo specified a lot of different ATF type for my car, sometimes it's Type F,G, sometimes it's Dexron D/E and at last they also recommend Pentosin for cold climate. So basically I don't know if I now have Type F,G or Dexron D/E inside.

By the way, is Dexron D/E different from Dexron II or III? What's the difference?
 
Are there any other specifications it could/should meet such as a ZF one ?
eg. is it a ZF pump/system ?

If you do decide to go with an ATF, this is a good one and relatively easy for you to get, seeing as it comes from Europe.

Castrol
Product Description

Castrol Transmax Z is a fully synthetic automatic transmission fluid with
outstanding oxidation and friction stability. It is dyed green for easy
identification.

Castrol Transmax Z is a DEXRON III type automatic transmission fluid
intended to satisfy all DEXRON III, II E and D requirements. It helps
provide a smooth shift and long life in both passenger car and heavy
duty automatic transmissions. Also recommended for power steering
systems where automatic transmission fluids are recommended.

Product Application

Castrol Transmax Z is recommended where either DEXRON III, II E or II
D fluids are specified. Castrol Transmax Z has proved most suitable in
severe service applications where high temperatures have reduced
transmission life. Castrol Transmax Z has been shown to reduce
automatic transmission fluid temperatures by up to 20*C in severe duty
applications.

Typical applications include:
Heavy duty automatic transmissions with integral retarders.
Transmissions of vehicles used for towing.
Transmission retarders.
Racing application.
Long drain applications.
Ford A4 LD transmissions in taxis and transit vans.
Testing has been carried out in automatic transmissions of passenger
cars and buses. Therefore, this product is suitable for both types of
automatic transmissions, in particular in cold climates, to improve the
shiftability or under hot/severe conditions for bus transmissions to
extend the oil drain interval.

Transmax Z
B1160/96/2 replaces B911/92/2
Extended drain interval in heavy duty automatic transmissions
City and Suburban service 100,000km or 2 years
On-Highway 300,000km or 2 years
For all long drain oil applications, Castrol Labcheck or other oil and
wear metal monitoring is required to ensure optimum performance
and durability.
NOTE: Castrol Transmax Z is NOT recommended where Ford
M2C-33F or G fluids are specified.
Also recommended for power steering systems and manual
transmission applications where DEXRON III or II fluids are
specified.
Although Castrol Transmax Z is compatible with conventional
mineral DEXRON III or II fluids, its performance is maximised if it is
not mixed with these other ATF's.
Very successfully used in drag racing applications in Australia, in
Powerglide to Lenco transmissions, for Super Street to Top
Alcohol competitors.

Castrol Transmax Z is approved by Voith, Mercedes Benz and ZF for
commercial vehicle applications.

Product Features & Benefits

Castrol Transmax Z shows excellent cold flow performance, very good
anti-wear performance, outstanding friction durability and excellent
oxidation stability.
Compared to typical mineral DEXRON III type ATF’s Castrol Transmax Z
offers the following advantages:
Outstanding resistance to high temperature oxidation - suitable for
severe service.
Longer oil drain intervals - lower service costs.
Viscosity stability, i.e. less noise when hot - maintains new oil feel
and higher performance.
Better control of deposits - cleaner transmission - longer life.
Helps prolong seal and bearing life due to good thermal stability -
improved transmission life.
Better wear control - less noise and longer transmission life.
Helps reduce oil temperature in severe applications - improved
transmission and oil service life.
Low foam - stable gearshift performance when hot.
Lower volatility - negligible oil loss at extreme temperatures.
Compatible with mineral/conventional automatic transmission fluids.
Less disposal cost - longer service life, therefore less oil to dispose of.
Better cold shift behaviour - more consistent/comfortable shift from
cold starts.
Castrol Transmax Z shows outstanding friction durability compared to a
wide range of mineral automatic transmission fluids and synthetic
automatic transmission fluids.
This means the smooth shift characteristics of Castrol Transmax Z are
retained much longer than other fluids even under severe operating
conditions.

Typical Characteristics

Performance Levels
Dexron III, Dexron II, Dexron, Type A Suffix A.
ZF TE-ML 09, 14, Extended Drain
Mercedes-Benz 236.81
Allison C4
Voith E607

SAE Grade 0W-20
KV @ 40*C (cSt) 36
KV @ 100*C (cSt) 7.1
cP @ -40*C Approx. 8400
Density @ 15*C Approx. 0.836
Viscosity Index Approx. 170
Pour Point (*C) Below -60
Closed Flash Point (*C) 226
Colour: Green
 
Thanks for the infos tdi-rick! It may be a good choice but I still a bit skeptical because of this:

"NOTE: Castrol Transmax Z is NOT recommended where Ford M2C-33F or G fluids are specified.
Also recommended for power steering systems and manual transmission applications where DEXRON III or II fluids are specified."

My car has a specification for Type F,G ATF and maybe (but not sure) for Dexron D/E. I do not know if this would be compatible. The problem is that it's almost impossible to find ATF type F or G nowadays (I live in Switzerland).
 
quote:

Originally posted by kilou:
Thanks for the infos tdi-rick! It may be a good choice but I still a bit skeptical because of this:

"NOTE: Castrol Transmax Z is NOT recommended where Ford M2C-33F or G fluids are specified.
Also recommended for power steering systems and manual transmission applications where DEXRON III or II fluids are specified."

My car has a specification for Type F,G ATF and maybe (but not sure) for Dexron D/E. I do not know if this would be compatible. The problem is that it's almost impossible to find ATF type F or G nowadays (I live in Switzerland).


I drive a 1996 Ford Contour/Mondeo and it calls for Type F ATF in the PS, yet the auto and manual trannies call for Mercon/Dexron III. So I can only assume that the PS units in the these cars really do need Type F ATF and not Mercon/Dexron III. Perhaps you should check with a local Ford garage and see whether they have the Type F ATF that they require in their vehicles
wink.gif
.

If worse comes to worse and you can't get the Type F ATF I'll be happy to get some shipped to you. Send me a PM.

Whimsey
 
tdi-rick.......thanks for the information on the Castrol Transmax Z. I am waiting to put a rebuilt transmission in my car and was looking at different types of fluids. This product is exactly what I am looking for. What a great Forum
 
This topic is interesting to me as my 83 Toyota factory manual specs to use Type F fluid in the auto transmission and to use Dexron or Dexron II in the power steering unit. So there must be enough differences b/t fluids to warrant a different fluid.

I too am concerned that using the Dexron III (or regular power steering fluid) in the power steering will cause leaks.
 
Thanks for the proposal Whimsey. I'll check in a Ford garage and let you know if I do not find Type F ATF.

Just to precise what would be the "safest choice":

-If my car now runs ATF type F, it may be dangerous to use a Dexron type ATF. But if my car now runs a Dexron type ATF, is it dangerous to use a type F??? I aks this because with all the different specs I've seen I do not know what is actually in my car
frown.gif


If I understood well, type F and type G ATF have almost no additives so they may be safe for any seals while Dexron type ATF are full of additives which may potentially harm the seals. So is really ATF type F,G the safest choice for ANY application?
 
The product data sheet for Pennzoil Power Steering Fluid (USA) lists Type F ATF fluid as appropriate for 1979-1999 Volvo power steering systems. It comprehensively lists various power steering applications for three of their products: Pennz power steering fluid, Pennz Type F ATF, and Pennz Dexron/Merc ATF. "Volvo" only shows up under the Type F column -- even "Pennzoil Power Steering Fluid" apparently isn't appropriate for Volvos. Personally I'd just add Type F and not worry about mixing with whatever's currently in there: rather than assume they're potentially incompatible until proven otherwise, I'd simply assume the opposite.
http://www.pennzoil.com/products/ancillary/power_steering.html

In addition to pre-1981 Ford transmissions, Type F was apparently also used in tramsmissions for certain Mazda, Saab, Jaguar, Triumph, Toyota ('77-'79), Toyota 4- Speed ('79-'83), and Volvo ('77-'85) models. So you could potentially find Type F at any shop which services those models.

Good overview of tranny fluids:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/040128.htm
 
Well I'm more and more confused
frown.gif
I sent a mail to kroon oil (a dutch oil maker: see www.kroon-oil.com). I don't want to buy their product but their website is very well done and you can check what is recommended for any car available (in Europe).

For my car they recommend a specific power steering fluid with similar characteristic to Pentosin CHF 11S (very thin compared to ATF). I mailed them to know whether it would be a good idea to use either their fluid or Pentosin CHF11S (which is sold by Volvo dealers in replacement of type F ATF for power steering) and they strongly advise to use either Pentosin or their fluid because these power steering fluids have a much higher viscosity index compared to any ATF.

They say I should really follow Volvo's recommendation by using the Pentosin fluid because of this! Too complicated no?

I have VADIS software (Volvo AfterSales Diagnostic and Information System) at home which lists all the information regarding almost any Volvo. For my car this program say that the recommended power steering fluid is ATF type F or G but that Pentosin CHF11S may be used for temperature below -20°C. OK but ALL Volvo dealers have replaced the part number for their ATF type F or G with the one of Pentosin CHF11S now so I believe Pentosin may be used safely otherwise they would have kept the ATF type F and G no????

It's strange that it is so difficult to find the correct fluid for any application other than engine lubrication
frown.gif


If I use Pentosin CHF11S now in my PS system which has run 220'000km on ATF (type ?) and find I have leaks, may this be cured simply by going back to ATF right after or will this mean that I have blown my seals? If the leaks can be stopped simply by going back to ATF, I would try the Pentosin stuff.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top