ATF fluid change + LubeGard black = problems

[Titanium_Alloy]

Sorry to hear that. Subaru uses Dexron III fluid, so Lubegard Black is a wrong thing to use. If they wanted to add Lubegard product they should've used Lubegard Red. The only way to improve shifting now is to do at least 2 (maybe even 3) drain refills. That way you'll reduce concentration of Lubegard Black in your transmission. Avoid driving the car as much as possible right now. LG Black modifies friction so there is much more slippage. This can definitely hurt your clutches and wear them out very fast if you continue driving like that.

Regards,

 

[Pablo]

Ti Alloy nailed it.

The shop is WAY WHACKED. If you have proof they added LG black, get a Swiss lawyer!! (OR if possible do have them "make you whole" without silly lawyers)

Not sure what they were thinking!!! Just Dumb.

[ June 20, 2004, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]

 

[redphan]

Thanks for the suggestions so far. Is there any way to completely flush the AT without any fancy equipment? Unfortunately no garages in Switzerland do complete flushes like in North America.

 

[redphan]

A friend just suggested adding Trans-X to clean out any varnish that may have formed and then doing a drain refill. He's not a mechanic, so if there are any here, is this recommended?

 

[Titanium_Alloy]

Don't add anything to your transmission right now. As I said just do a 2-3 drain-refills, that's should fix the problem. Try to drive the car 5-10km after each drain-fill to make sure that old fluid mixes with a new one really well.
When doing drain-refill make sure that you use recommended fluid, in US all Subaru use Dexron III. Don't use ATF 4+, Mercon V, or any other not approved fluid. Some Dexron III fluids come with double approval as Mercon as well. But make sure that bottle explicitly says DEXRON III (or Dexron III approved). If you choose major brands like Mobil, Shell, BP, Castrol, and etc. you can pretty much guarantee good ATF performance.

Regards,

 

[redphan]

I had a garage recently replace the transmission fluid in my subaru legacy. The garage also added LubeGard black (friction modifier. I believe the transmission consists of a torque converter, gears, pump, filter and an automatic clutch at the rear end to distribute power whenever the computer feels necessary. The car is a four wheel drive.

The problem is that after adding the fluid all the gear changes and clutch engages/disengages have become very jerky. It'n no longer silky smooth like before. Adding LubeGard black is NOT recommended by Subaru, so why they added it is beyond me and they are a Subaru garage!!!

I had the garage change the oil again. That would have reduced the LubeGard in the tranny by about 50% because roughly half the oil still remains in the tranny. I live in Switzerland, no one here does a full tranny flush like in the USA. Despite the 2nd oil change, the problem
still exists.

I am fed up with the garage and don't want to go to them again. I would be keen to hear of any ideas on how to get rid of all traces of the LubeGard or to neutralise its effect. Thanks.

 

[darrenc]

If you have reasonable access to your transmission lines that run to your transmission cooler, you could disconnect your pressure line, connect a hose to it, then use the transmission to pump the old fluid out while you add new fluid. This system works very well in my Volvo and Jeep. Here is a general overview of the proceedure.

http://au.geocities.com/ozbrick850/atfflushmethod.html

 

[DEWFPO]

I concur with DarrenC's approach. I flush trannies all the time using this method. Disconnect the return line from the radiator to the tranny, put a hose on it. Turn the engine on, pump out no more than 2 qts at a time. In between add good quality atf and continue to do this for 12-16 qts. It will flush most everything out of the pumps, cluthes, torque convertor, etc....


It will take you anywhere from 45 mins to 1 hr. time and the cost of 12-16 qts of atf, and a length of clear hose.

DEWFPO

 

[Ray H]

Three (or four if you're anal about it) drains and refills with ~5 miles driving between the refill and the next drain will do the job with no chance of slipping up and running your tranny dry. (If you're gonna try the disconnect the return line method DO have a helper to yell at the first sign of burping bubbles indicating the tranny's sucking air.) Then maybe follow up six months later with one more drain and refill during an engine oil change.

 

[lee]

If the black bottle reduces the friction (as stated in an earlier post), and you are experiencing harsh shifts vice slipping, I think you should check the value of the dropping resistor. The OEM value should be between 9 and 15 ohms (20 watt rating). On the Subaru AWD transaxle the dropping resistor modifies the voltage seen by the solenoid that controls line pressure. If it failed open, or is disconnected, the line pressure is set to maximum from idle until approximately 2000 rpm (when the electronic transmission control unit begins to provide controlled modulation of the solenoid). Failure of the dropping resistor is not an uncommon thing for Subarus (in the US at least). On the SVX (the model Subie I currently drive) the failure of a dropping resistor would be indicated by a blinking "power" light on the dash for model years up to 1995, the 96 & 97 models flashed the "Hot ATF" warning light on start-up. You should check the manual...and maybe post on the NASIOC (North American Subaru Imprezza Owner's Club) web site forum for specifics.

 

[Ray H]

Interesting point, but permit me two observations:
1> redphan noted no driveability problems with his Subaru's trannie prior to the fluid change. That doesn't elliminate the dropping resistor from consideration, but it doesn't indicate it's the problem either. At best, a definite maybe.

2> the function of FM in auto trannies isn't to reduce friction per se, but, rather, to control frictional effects as they relate to power take-up by the friction facings bonded to bands and clutch plates. Too much or the wrong kind of FM for the friction facings used may result in what seems to be delayed engagement followed by a final abrupt engagement.

 

[redphan]

I agree with Ray H: my sense is that the gear changes and clutch engagements are being delayed and at a certain inflection point the pressure is high enough that the engage is forced in a harsh manner.

Also my model is 1999 and I see no blinking lights. I will carry out a full oil change and if that doesn't solve my problem, then the solenoid could indeed be faulty,so thanks for the heads up anyway.

 

[lee]

my suggestion is very likely to be wrong - A couple of reasons why: 1) with no blinking light (or whatever they used in 99) then the control unit "sees" no problem with the solenoids (I had suggested it because some people seem to overlook the light which only occurs at start-up), and 2) I guess I missed the slow to engage and thought you were just getting harsher shifts.

 

[unDummy]

I've found that Lubegard black has smoothed out shifting in various trannies(even in non recommended dex3 transmission). But, red would have been a better choice.

If the issue occured directly after shop maintenance, then you better hope that they didn't screw something up. Some unethical shops might tamper with the vehicle to increase future business.

Make sure that your running hot level ATF is correct per your owners manual. Overfilling caused ATF foaming, and underfilling erratic line pressure can cause a similar issue.

And, either have the ECU/TCU reset or leave the battery disconnected overnight. If the TCU is capable of playing with line pressure in relation to fluid/tranny characteristics(normal wear...), then maybe a simple baseline reset will help.

 

[redphan]

Well I finally got round to flushing the tranny manually. Thank you all for your suggestions. The car is much smoother, although not quite like before the change. I will disconnect the battery and see if reseting the computer helps.

In the end, i replaced the sump oil first and then disconnected the radiator and replaced the oil in the torque converter. The whole process was surprisingly simple.

Thanks again.