What's Behind the Idea of Using ATF In Manual Transmisions....

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With my new vehicle I am coming across the recommendation to use an ATF in a 5 speed manual tranny.

Anyone know why manufacturers spec ATF's to be used in some manual trannies ?. What are the benefits, and what are the possible pitfalls in using ATF in manual trannies ? . I doubt I will stray from the manufacturers recommendation for warranty reasons, but I dislike the idea of using an ATF in a manual tranny, why not just use a good quality MTF.

Any info would be appreciated.
 
Hi,
I hope this helps;

As you are probably aware a modern ATF is simply a semi-synthetic gear oil with added and sometimes very specific formulated qualities
Its prime role is to lubricate the drive gear set - its other roles are "circumstantial" in that they may and do vary according to the nature of the individual components within the transmission. Sometimes they are formulated for a specific transmission or retarder or both and their abilities in heavy trucks is well known - they are robust!

Technical reasons calling for one gear lubricant over another also emanate not only the metallurgy involved but from the type of gear cutting/profile ( noise etc.) and design use/loading factors, bearing size and structure, shock loading requirement, anticipated temperature range in use etc etc.

The GM Dexron type ATFs have been used in manual gearboxes by various manufacturers for about 50+ years. If I remember correctly all MB cars for instance had such requirements from the early 1950s. Volvos even in the 1960s required ATFs and many light and heavy trucks have used them for decades. There is an established history!

The benefits of the ATF ( compared to a gear oil ) are its low pour point and its low viscosities both at 40C and 100C along with its inherent ability to handle very high temperatures. Usually the high VI tells the story too as it can be up to double that of some gear oils

This then enables a "robust" manual gearbox to have excellent very cold ambient gear selection characteristics along with a good shift "feel" at very high temperatures
The overall lower viscosity of the ATF ( compared to a gear oil ) also aids in cooling the components. Its formulation components have other "spin off" effects like anti foaming, seal and component cleanliness along with excellent thermal, shear and oxidation stability. Fully synthetic ATFs are sometimes used as a lifetime fill in manual gearboxes because of their overall stability and long term durability

Today's choice of gear lubricants is truly amazing. They range at least from a mono HD10w thru engine oils ( mineral/synthetic - mono/multi grade) to the GL API classified lubricants and the various ATF types available

It is wise to use only what gear/transmission lubricant the manufacturer calls for. If an ATF is called for, a fully synthetic version may also be suitable - if so it will normally make a difference by reducing component operating temperatures and provide improved shift quality

Regards
Doug
MY02 Subaru Outback 2.5 man.(Del 1,D/T all syn)
MY98 BMW Z3 2.8 man.(Del 1,Gbox synATF,syn Diff)
MY89 Porsche 928S4 Auto(Del 1,Gbox synATF,syn Diff)
 
Good post Doug.

I'd speculate that fuel efficiency may have something to do with it too. Probably a little less power loss due to thinner lubricant.

****, I had an '83 Plymouth with a 5-speed manual, factory fill was ATF. The tranny was a bit noisey when new. The dealer called New Process Gear Division and they recommended refilling the transmission with motor oil (I'm pretty sure it was motor oil, forget the grade). The dealer changed the tranny fluid and the noise went away.
 
thanks for all the great replies, makes me feel better about using ATF. I'll be going with Redline's C+ATF in my Dodge SRT-4 5 speed manual tranny, to replace the factory ATF+4 fluid.

The last couple replies leads me to a story about my 94 Acura Integra. That car's 5 speed tranny began making noise when making sharp low speed turns. My dealer contacted the acura tech line and they told him to replace the fluid with Honda ATF to get rid of the noise. There wasnt any Honda MTF back then, they were just using motor oil in the trannies.
thanks again guys
Joey
 
Just how different is say GM's synchromesh MFT from AFT?

My manual transmissions and fluid

1966 TR 4, SAE 90 Gear oil
1968 Chevelle. '' as far as I remember
1977 LUV, motor oil, now using 5W-30 Pennzoil dino
1981 Phoenix. AFT
1992 Grand Am, MFT
2002 Cavalier, AFT

Never a tranny problem and over 100K on all but the Chevelle.
 
Idrinkmotoroil, if you get some Redline C+ ATF on your finger trey wipeing it off. You can not get it all off of your skin. Even strong soap and hot water has a hard time wipeing it of. I think they use Alimines(sp) like Schaffer does to help the additives bond to the metal surfaces. It is neat stuff. THe shock proof gear lube is even harder to get off. You have to use strong solvents and alot of rags to get the last litttle bit off as metal part. Quite often you have to clean the part two or three times.

P.S. Did you talk to Dave at Redline. I was curiouis about what he thought about useing MTL in your trans or a blend of MTL and C+ ATF.

What I think is neat about this is that it means that the parts will never be dry! THis is not to be confused with a tackifier typer agent! Also pay close attention to the smell! It smell different then most ATF's.

[ December 13, 2003, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]
 
For what it may be worth (which is probably zip),
about 20 years ago a friend with a Dodge manual transmission got a shop manual.

It stated that "if the customer complains about excessive noise, change the OEM ATF to gear lube" (or words to that effect).

So I guess ATF in manual transmissions has been around a while.
 
JB, thanks for that info, I better wear my surgical gloves for the redline swap.

I did talk to Dave at Redline on several occassions, he feels I should stick with C+ATF in my tranny, when I asked him about MTL he mentioned something about it have a thicker viscosity and the C+ATF being a better match for my tranny. We've agreed to also use the C+ATF without any Mopar Friction Modifier, despite Chrsyler calling for it to reduce noise in the Quaife LSD in my tranny. Dave feels the C+ATF will be adequate and will allow for better shifting without the extra FM added to the mix. I am very anxious to get this fluid in the tranny, hopefully get this pig shifting like a somewhat respectable tranny.

smile.gif

Joey
 
Hi,
Joey - another excellent synthetic ATF is Castrol's Transmax Z

This ATF is used in competition ( drag racing, rallying etc. ) but it may not be available in NA
It is Dexron 3, Mercon 136J 166H, MB 236.8, Voith, ZF and JATCO MATIC D approved
I use this excellent ATF and so do a number of other Porsche owners in their MB 4 spd autos

It is suitable for MB and BMW's manual boxes too which is another story!

Best of luck

Regards
 
Doug, there is some synthetic Castrol ATF up here , not sure if it the same as you describe, probably not, but next time I am at the local supply store I will read up on it.

my battle has been to find an ATF that meets the Mopar spec for ATF+4 or close to it as possible. Right now Redline seems to be the supplier with the most compatible fluid in terms of specs. I know there are some really good fluids out there but I am not sure where to begin as you dont find much info on them and its basically trial and error process. I'm looking forward to the Redline,have high expectations of it, crossing my fingers.

thanks again everyone.
canada.gif

Joey
 
TransmaxZ??? I saw that once when I was..............bigfoot was running through the woods with a bottle of it
grin.gif


Castrol makes some good ATFs. Too bad availability isn't all that great.
Its another green synth ATF compatible with many makes. Its also a GL4/70w80 fluid. Good for manuals that need thin fluid for easier shifting and better MPG.
 
finally got the redline c+atf into the car today, and I am finding it to work much better than the stock fluid. I think this is a good choice, works better in all driving situations. I think it is good stuff.

So far I've put in about 2% of friction modifier, the manufacturer recommends about 4-5%, Ive gone with half that so far figuring the redline likely has ample fm already. This equates to about 2 oz of fm for my 2.5 qt tranny.

Joey
 
1) better cold weather shifting than gear lubes
2) a 1% gain in fuel efficiency, compared to 75w-90
3) the thinner oil flows better, which is necessary for some modern transmission/transaxle gear/bearing designs ...
4) very specific frictional properties ...

Additive chemistry of ATF is similar to a mild EP, "GL-4"' rated gear lube ....

Tooslick
www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics
 
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