Please Advise on ATF: Mobil 1 vs. Redline D4

[Titanium_Alloy]

Hi,
In a few weeks I was going to change factory fill ATF on my 02 Pontiac Grand AM 2.2L with 20k miles. I was considering Mobil 1 because it's readily available, relatively cheap $5/quart, and has the best properties from any synthetic ATF at least on paper.

However, in this UOA posted by Al
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001053
It seems like Mobil sheared down 30% from original weight. I remember that some time ago Mobil ATF had a statement on the label that it was 100% synthetic excluding additive carrier oil. Now bottle just says "Full Synthetic". It seems like it's only a marketing trick and they still use carrier oil. Do you know if they switched for 100% PAO?
Mobil is also fully Dexron III certified.

Redline on the other hand is a little bit more expensive, but I would go for it. I have a few concerns about Redline D4:
- It's not officially certified as a Dexron III
- I don't know what base oil they use and if they use "additive carrier oil"
- It might have a problem with a seal swell if they use PE base
- It might not have very good friction properties which will affect shifting smoothness.
- It might be, however, more shear stable compared to Mobil 1 (just theoretically)
- It might be more heat dissipating than Mobil 1 (again just theory)
- I don't know if I can use it for extended drains which I'm interested in

Please, if you tried these ATFs give me some feedback on them. How's shifting, temperature drop if any, extended drains, and any other info which you think might be useful. If you have some facts or VOA/UOA on these ATFs I appreciate it as well.

Regards,

 

[Alex D]

I am also unsure of what to do. most posts are very complimentary towards M1, Amsoil and Redline synth. ATF. On some forums the opinions are slpit, especially the GM truck boards and LS1 F-body and Pontiac GTP boards. many users did incur problems after switching to M1 and were talking about slipping trannies and such.

I have M1 Synth. ATF in my 96 Corvette 4L60E automatic now for a year without problems. I immediately after switchin to M1 ATF that the shifts had become much smoother under part throttle, but were just as firm under WOT. The ATF temp is also a good 10F lower than with the original factory fill. SO I can't report a problem, also no leaks on my tranny so far.

If I had to do it over again, I would probably get OEM ATF from the Chevy dealer (since I have read multiple times that aftermarket ATF is also differently formulated than OEM) and change ATF more often instead of running Synth. in the auto.

 

[rob-the-oil-nut]

I found a place that has one of those state-of-the-art trans flushers, and bought 18 (as I recall) quarts of Redline ATF and brought it and my car (again, Bonneville, 3800 engine with 4 speed AOD) and had it done. At the time I felt I was giving the tranny a new life; that it would help THIS car be my next 'half-million-KM project car' Now you post this stuff and cast doubt. Drat

Cheers
Rob

 

[MolaKule]

Titanium,

Glad to see you're changing out your ATF out now. If you do this every 20 k miles, you will have a long-life tranny.

I have had good luck with Schaeffer's #204S in every vehicle I have put it in.

BTW, the link showed the ATF was at a SAE 10 weight. Mobil 1 ATF's are 0W20 weights. As long as the Viscosity doesn't drop below about 4.5 cSt, you'll still have film protection.

 

[Titanium_Alloy]

Thank you all for your replies.

I was considering Schaeffer's but figured it would be easier just to go plain synthetic rather than semi-synthetic at the comparable price. Schaeffer's is more difficult to obtain, plus shipment time. It's just easier for me to order Redline from myoilshop.com or buy Mobil 1 at a local store.

MoleKula thanks for technical clarification. I had a full faith in Mobil until I saw a 30% viscosity drop over such short mileage. As you explained, it doesn't seem so fatal now. But 5.32 cSt comes pretty close to 4.5. I wonder if Mobil's viscosity would ever get to 4.5 or not.

Regards,

 

[Whimsey]

Maybe you might want to consider Schaeffer's #204S Dexron III Supreme. It's a semi-syn that probably will cost similar delivered versus purchasing Mobil 1 by the time you pay state sales tax on the Mobil 1. I know some members use it in their auto trannies and are very happy it the results. I use it in my transfer case and manual tranny and noticed a big difference compared to the factory fill.

Whimsey

 

[outrun]

Hey:

Not to beat a dead horse.

Advice to all before using the awesome transmission flusher-infuser type machines.

Always ahve your pan dropped and the ATF filter replaced prior to the flush.

I think it is becoming standard procedure in all shops that offer the service.

However, there are a few bad apple shops that do not install a new filter.

Just advice to all here.

A new ATF filter is cheap insurance bearing in mind all the crud the new synthetic ATF will liberate.

 

[Titanium_Alloy]

Hi,

I would like to thank everyone once again for your responses.

I have an update:

Today I took the car to my mechanic to do an ATF change. I decided to go with Mobil 1. One of the reasons is that I just simply chickened out of using Redline D4 because the car is still under the warranty. Thus I don't want any questions from the dealer if something happens. Mechanic also replaced ATF filter (PN# 24221762) and the gasket (PN# 24203590). I decided to go with ACDelco, which is OEM for GM. Each part was $25. Why so much for the gasket? It's made from a special combination of rubber and plastic material, not a regular cork one. I could have kept the old one, but I really wanted to make sure that everything is done properly (I actually have the old gasket. I already cleaned it and shall keep it for a while).

Unfortunately, mechanic didn't do the flush only dropped a pan. I guess it's still OK, since he said that the old fluid looked more or less fine. Replaced amount was 8 quarts out of total 10-10.5 quart capacity. I was expecting about 7-7.5 quarts from the pan drop, but 8 quarts is even better. I'm going to add a bottle of LubeGard Red tomorrow as well.

This GM 4T40E transmission is a real pain because it doesn't have a dipstick and uses a check hole to check fluid level during the procedure. That's why I had to take it to mechanic. Recommended ATF and filter change intervals are 50k miles for severe service, but for a regular driving ATF or filter change is not required at all.

My first impressions from Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF - didn't really notice anything on my way home (only a few miles in the city). I hope everything is fine. I'm planning on keeping this ATF, although it wasn't changed completely, for about 50k-60k miles or 5-6 years. If my financial situation permits probably would change it sooner.

Regards,

 

[Dick in Falls Church]

You really can't expect to get whiplash at the first stop light after a partial ATF change.
The advantage is long term--resistance to oxidation, cooler running, reduced wear, better protection in case of a problem.

 

[m2pc]

I was curious about your questions so I forwarded them on to Redline,:

>Hi,
>
>I was hoping you could answer a few questions regarding your D4 ATF.
>Someone posted the following questions/concerns on a forum regarding your
>ATF D4 product and they are trying to compare to Mobil 1 synthetic ATF :
>
>I have a few concerns about Redline D4:
>- It's not officially certified as a Dexron III ( I thought is was?)
>- I don't know what base oil they use and if they use "additive carrier oil"
>- It might have a problem with a seal swell if they use PE base
>- It might not have very good friction properties which will affect shifting
>smoothness.
>- It might be, however, more shear stable compared to Mobil 1 (just
>theoretically)
>- It might be more heat dissipating than Mobil 1 (again just theory)
>- I don't know if I can use it for extended drains which I'm interested in
>
>My biggest question is regarding the seal swell if you se the PE base, if
>you were to only answer one question, please answer that one.
>
>Thanks,
Their responce:

The D4ATF is has the same frictional characteristics and seal swell
as a petroleum fluid. I would expect it to be more sheer stable than
the Mobil 1 fluid but we haven't done comparison testing and improved
heat transfer but again we haven't compared that. The D4ATF would
offer extended drain intervals over a petroleum ATF.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil

 

[JohnBrowning]

Rob-the-oil-nut, DO not sweat it!! Redline oil may be questionable to some but all agree that their Gear lubes and Trany fluids are "TOPS"!!

I have used Redline,Mobil-1 and Amsoil ATF. I prefer Redline hands down. I now only use M1 for my Mother because it is localy available and she does not plan here need for specilized fluids like I do! I have never experinced slipag or shuder with any of the above fluids. I rediscorvered Redline a few years back because their C+ ATF was the only 100% synthetic fluid I could find that was compatable and meet or exceeded ATF+4 requirements. I have been a happy customer ever since!

 

[Alex D]

I switched a while ago to M1 ATF in my vette, but after thinking this through, I probably go back to OEM GM Dexron from our Chevy dealer and change it every two years. It is too expensive to change any of the synthetics out that often and OEM ATF will do fine in those intervals.

 

[novadude]

Mr. Alloy,

Is the M1 ATF still working well in the Grand Am transmission? I am looking at another fluid change in my 3.4L GA in the next few months, and I am thinking about considering synthetic.

 

[vettenuts]

I have a 94 Grand Am with 130K miles on it. Have been running Redline D4 since around 30K milies with no problems at all (at least that I know of

)

 

[Titanium_Alloy]

novadude,

Mobil 1 is working perfectly fine. Absolutely no problems. If you look in recent UOA posts with Mobil 1 ATF showed very good results in a number of transmission despite rather significant sheardowm. I suspect that M1 as well as Redline D4 would shear down very fast in a short mileage (I suspect under 20-25k miles) but would hold viscosity very good afterwards up to (and probably in excess of) 60k miles while mineral based fluid would continue reduction in viscosity throughout its service life. Mobil 1 + LubeGard seem to work very well in my transmission. I will do a long term test for M1 in this car. I intend on keeping this car for a long time and will be changing only with M1 ATF. I just want to see how well Mobil 1 will perform in a long term. If it will get me to 200k miles without any transmission problems I'll keep on using it in my next cars. If it doesn't get me to 200k miles (or gets me there but with problems) in the next car I'll be testing Redline the same way just.

Regards,

[ March 16, 2004, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Titanium_Alloy ]

 

[novadude]

Thanks!

Is Lubeguard worthwhile?

 

[Santo Fontana]

I have done tranny services on a Gand Cherokee, Taurus, and a Volvo s70 with Redline D4, and all three owners (2 of them FEMALE who notice NOTHING)noticed smoother shifting. That is just with 4-6 quarts.