Dexron III ATF color after change

[Greg Bohn]

Hi;

I recently had the ATF and filter changed in my GM 4T60-E Automatic transmission in my '92 Oldsmobile (at about 33K miles on the old ATF. They said everything looked/ran o.k.)

I have a question about what the 'proper' color characteristics of the new fluid should be, since the new fluid seems darker/murkier than I expected when viewed in a 4 ounce glass jar.

Since the change had only replaced about half the ATF (previously Dexron IIE, now Dexron III), I thought I would try to do a more complete change by suctioning out the fluid through the dipstick and adding new fluid a couple of times.

After doing this I ran the car a hundred miles or so and extracted a few ounces to examine. Even though the fluid doesn't look bad at all on the dipstick, sitting in a 4 ounce baby food jar (about 2.25 inches diameter) the fluid looks noticably darker than new unused ATF.

The unused ATF is clear, cherry red whereas the new fluid has an almost brownish somewhat cloudy appearance.

As I said, looking at this current fluid in a thin layer on the dispstick, or in a few drops on a paper towel doesn't look bad at all. It's only in 'depth' that it seems significantly different than unused fluid.

Is it normal for the new 'used' fluid to be darker than unused fluid after a change on an an 'older' transmission?

Hoping this isn't a sign that the transmission is self desctructing, I was wondering if this could just be residual 'gunk' that was now being dissolved or suspended by the new ATF.

Thanks;

-Greg Bohn

 

[MolaKule]

Greg,

"Hoping this isn't a sign that the transmission is self desctructing, I was wondering if this could just be residual 'gunk' that was now being dissolved or suspended by the new ATF."

How much particulate matter was in pan after it was removed? Did you see it?

Most likely the new fluid is replenshing detergent additives that are cleaning the system.

If the fluid is still brownish, I would have them completely flush it and replace ALL the fluid.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

DO NOT FLUSH if you're experiencing any actual transmission problems unless you're prepared for a rebuild. If it shifts and pulls ok and has no problems other than the look then do the flush.

When most transmissions start to develope a small problem, people tend to flush and it amplifies the problem to the point of a rebuild.

 

[widman]

You probably have some cleaning effect from the additives. Dexron II was know for leaving deposits and insulating electronic components.
But the red dye used is used in different quanties depending on the base oil. Put a few drops in a clear Group II base and you will have a nice clear red. The amount gets more and more as you get darker Group I base stocks. You probably got a good Group II product, and it's dye can't compensate for the remainder of the Group I product.
Personally, as long as it runs ok, I'd leave it alone for about 10,000 miles and then flush it all. I normally drain mine by disconnecting the line to the trans cooler, letting it pump out while filling.

 

[Greg Bohn]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MolaKule:
Greg,

"Hoping this isn't a sign that the transmission is self desctructing, I was wondering if this could just be residual 'gunk' that was now being dissolved or suspended by the new ATF."

How much particulate matter was in pan after it was removed? Did you see it?

Most likely the new fluid is replenshing detergent additives that are cleaning the system.

If the fluid is still brownish, I would have them completely flush it and replace ALL the fluid.

---

I didn't see the pan. The only feedback I got other than the transmission seemed o.k. is that the old fluid was 'little dirty'.

-Greg Bohn

 

[Dr. T]

From M-1's website (FAQ section), they mention that ATF color change is normal and that there's an overall lessening of the red and it may even resemble motor oil coming out at the required change interval. The red is nothing more than color I.D.. So, it sounds normal.

 

[MolaKule]

I don't think Greg mentioned he was having any problems and I assumed he was using a GroupII or III based ATF fluid.

I worry when the fluid is going to a dark brown, red dye notwithstanding.

My concern was that the fluid may be oxidizing and further oxidation might actually cause some problems.

It sounds like the stuff in the pan was pretty normal, from all indications, and this was a scheduled ATF interval change.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but a used oil analysis of the ATF would have been able to tell us if the oil was breaking down due to oxidation. Since Greg has replaced the normal 3-4 quarts, the additives should have been replenished to a point.

If the fluid continues to turn brown, pull a sample and send it to an oil analysis lab.

 

[Al]

GM makes a simple concept difficult. The lack of a drain plug is good in that it decreases the odds of leakage and adding contamination oil. Its kinda like the U-Joints with no grease fittings. Down side of course is that folks tend not to be as religious on changing fluids. GM of course compounds the problem by seemingly designing inaccesability by having a frame cross member block removal in a great many of its cars. It appears to be a conspiricy. I finally decided to brave these obstacles and managed to do the job. My tip for anyone trying it is to make sure you can get a wrench on each and every bolt.
I know its very unscientific, but if you can smell the fluid and it smells burnt, there's major trouble. The fluid not being red is not an indicator of a problem.

 

[Greg Bohn]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MolaKule:
I don't think Greg mentioned he was having any problems and I assumed he was using a GroupII or III based ATF fluid.

I worry when the fluid is going to a dark brown, red dye notwithstanding.

My concern was that the fluid may be oxidizing and further oxidation might actually cause some problems.

It sounds like the stuff in the pan was pretty normal, from all indications, and this was a scheduled ATF interval change.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but a used oil analysis of the ATF would have been able to tell us if the oil was breaking down due to oxidation. Since Greg has replaced the normal 3-4 quarts, the additives should have been replenished to a point.

If the fluid continues to turn brown, pull a sample and send it to an oil analysis lab.

---

I took some digital pictures, although I don't know if they came out accurately enough to be a fair representation.

Take a look at

http://home.stny.rr.com/gbtestpage/atf-oil.html

for some images of what I've got.

The change was for a routine change without any noticeable problems (although since then I've noticed what looks like a small leak in the area around the drivers side transaxle seal).

I don't know what brand they used, but the receipt said Dexron III.

After that, when I suctioned out the fluid (twice) I used Kendal Dexron III (with the 'G' specification) to replace it. I managed to get out about 5.5 Quarts (each time) of what the book says is 11 Quarts total.

As it turns out, I did send the original (Dexron II) fluid (from right before the first change) in for analysis. I did this as a routine check not really expecting to find a problem.

Unfortunately they didn't do an oxidation measurement (Would you get a TAN for that?). It came back saying I had metals of:

Al- 12 Iron-220 Copper- 352 Lead-65
Tin-12 Zinc-371

'Insolubles' were 0.1 percent
SUS Viscosity at 210F was 41.7

The report said copper was a bit high for 33,000 oil miles, the oil was a bit thin, and the insolubles at the limit. I was planning to send another sample in after I got some more miles on the 'new' fluid.

Maybe I should do this sooner rather than later...

Thanks;

 

[MolaKule]

Darn good pics Greg.

With all of that new fluid, the additives should have been given a new life.

The iron and the copper does seem a bit high for this tranny, but the used fluid does still have a rather cherry color to it.

Al is right on about the GM tansmissions, those cross-members are a pain. And if the fuid smells closer to the original, and doesn't have a "burnt" smell, like clutch material, then its probably ok.

I would have another fluid analysis taken at maybe 3k down the road. If the tranny is upshifting and downshifting without any thumps or shudders, then you're probably ok for now.

 

[Greg Bohn]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Greg Bohn:
Hi;

...

I have a question about what the 'proper' color characteristics of the new fluid should be, since the new fluid seems darker/murkier than I expected when viewed in a 4 ounce glass jar.

...

-Greg Bohn

---

For what it's worth, here's a follow-up. I kept an eye on the fluid appearance for the last 1,100 miles or so, and just got back an oil analysis.

To review, after the initial oil/filter change I did several 50% replacements (using a vacuum pump) with about 10-400 miles between. I then sampled the ATF and looked at the color in a 4 oz. glass jar.

The oil would appear a bit 'murky' in depth and noticeably darker than new fluid. I wondered if this was 'normal'.

I later discovered that after sitting 5-7 days some medium gray colored material would settle out in the bottom of the jar, and the fluid would still be darker than new ATF, but a bit clearer.

Well, now at 1,100 miles there is only a trace of material settling out, and the color is still a darker red (in depth).

Analysis came back o.k. with

code:

---

TAN: 0.7

Visc. @ 210F: 48.8 SUS

Water: 0.0

Insolubles: Trace



Aluminum: 2 Test by Blackstone Labs

Chromium: 0

Iron: 21

Copper: 36

Lead: 4

Tin: 0

Moly: 0

Nickel: 0

Manganese: 0

Silver: 0

Titanium: 0

Potassium: 0

Boron: 58

Silicon: 9

Sodium: 1

Calcium: 27

Magnesium: 2

Phosph: 159

Zinc: 17

Barium: 0

---

So, it looks like everything is o.k. at this point (and the transmission has worked o.k. all along).

I did have a transaxel seal replaced about 800 miles ago, but don't know if that was the cause of the material I used to see settling out, or if it was cluth material (which is what I'm assuming).

At this point I'm guessing that the new ATF flushed out some old deposits when the new Dexron III was used, and these have now resettled. I just hope they settled into the oil pan

...

 

[jjbula]

Greg,

I think you are doing the right thing. Our American cars have transmissions that need more frequent changes on ATF. I used to wait until 30K, but I'm going to go with 10 to 20K now.

I'm unsure about those "flushes". The dealers bought the machines from salesmen that told them it would generate more $. They promise all the fluid is changed out but I doubt it. I don't want to drive around with residual flushing chemical in my ATF for 30K.

Besides, do we really need the flush if we change the fluid frequently and use a good Group II or change the fluid 3 to 4 times when we do?

I'd rather run Auto-Rx in the Trans and follow up with 3 or 4 changes than use a flushing machine.

However, I'm not convinced that Auto-Rx is even necessary.

 

[wtd]

This is overkill, but this is what I do on my 98 chevy ext-cab Z71 with the 4L60E tranny. Since my pan has a drain plug, I drain and refill about every other oil change which only removes about 3 quarts. My fluid always stays clean. I do this because I tow on a fairly regular basis and I had this same tranny in a 93 S-10 4X4 that I used to tow with and the tranny started going out at about 36,000 miles. I did 15,000 mile tranny fluid changes on this one.

I guess this made me paranoid so thats why I change mine like this and if this tranny goes out before its time, it won't be because of the fluid.

Wayne

 

[jjbula]

This is

but may be helpful.

My friend with a Caravan had his transmission rebuilt and the mechanic showed all the parts that were TSB'd. Some were plastic and had metal replacements. You could say his trans was better than new.

I've read how Windstars with aluminum pistons have steel ones as replacements.

It may be a fact of life that many cars will need a rebuilt trans sometime. I now consider that in my purchase decision. I count on Toyota to be less prone to failure and worthy of at least some of its higher price.

 

[jjbula]

BTW, even though I just spent $1600 on a rebuilt trans and trans cooler on my Windstar I still like it. (If I can verify that the head gasket leak is indeed plugged)

It was considerably cheaper than the Previa when I bought it ($6K-$8K)

 

[Ram01]

It should stay the same